A word about the church of Catholics

I've heard of late, within the context of discussion of sexual child abuse, an increasing intensity of hostility towards the Catholic Church specifically. And while I am in no position to offer counter arguments of the many criticisms that are offered, the many examples of sheer arrogant inaction, the enormous historical litany of offenses, or the highly confabulated perceptions which abound, I would like to ask of our members one thing.

Please recall that what we call a church, often isn't. Churches are often confused with institutions, organizations, societies. And while sometimes they most certainly are that, a church is actually a fellowship of faith. I humbly submit that my understanding that church, the institution, the organization, the hierarchy, even the society... is not the church. The faithful voluntarily embracing that fellowship are the church.

Just because the infamous Catholic Church, whose image is fodder for stoking hatred and rejection, uses the title of church, doesn't mean that the fellowship becomes invalid. Faith is not about labels after all, it is personal, and enduring.

Many will rail against the Catholic Church as if it were a person, when the offenses attributed to it belong to a precious few, who manifest their power and influence in ways that can only be described as 'personal.'

Other organizations are no strangers to the phenomenon, and even countries and religions non-Christian suffer the abuse of the 'image' of their existence, because of the actions or policies of people who represented them. I am certain each one of us can see that reality all around us. Many religious organizations might deserve the resistance, perhaps even some more than others. Matters of faith are often to be proved untrue if they don't endure the jeers and taunts of those willfully ignorant of the their faith.

Catholics may or may not be more worthy of respect than any other congregation, but they are nevertheless a congregation, here to stay.

I wish to avoid the "parade of sins" that seems ever reinforced by a mind-manipulating propaganda effort, as the one that's ongoing now. Professional activists constantly injecting their brand of information to secure the tone of a conversation, or signal virtue while speaking hatred. We could discuss history and 'leadership' in the Catholic Church forever, but the leadership we'd speak of would be the 'image' of an institution, not the heart of the church. And the heart is what the church actually is centered around, not it's surface, which is manned by people to manage.

Is the Catholic Church a person? Well, I suppose that can be answered both 'yes' and 'no.' In the sense of the bride of Christ, she is. In the sense of the engineered construct of the social workings, the institution itself, that is supposed to serve ... not so much.

All large collections of people suffer the same afflictions of anti-social, abhorrent behaviors.. any church is no exception... any pretense to the contrary is pure fantasy. Subject any group of multi-millions of people, and you will find the same sins, the same failings, and the same failures to contain it. Bar none. So when you decry any group, including the hateful image you might bear for Catholic Church, remember, there are no exceptions... these are problems of the entire human community... not just a church, or a race, or a creed, or nationality.

But these are just words. You can certainly find a Catholic person to further expose you to what the church really is... not what marketeers say it is. But I just ask that the hatred for Catholics not be encouraged... they really don't deserve it.

Thanks for your time.

MM

a reply to: Maxmars

I was raised Catholic.
I have been a musician through many Christian denominations.
The evangelicals are the most fanatic.
The majority of the christian religions are welcoming to everyone.

Because I was a musician in (multiple denominations) the church for over 20 years, is why I no longer claim a religion.
There is to much bureaucracy for a true message to get out.
Which is kind of what you are saying with :

Please recall that what we call a church, often isn't. Churches are often confused with institutions, organizations, societies. And while sometimes they most certainly are that, a church is actually a fellowship of faith. I humbly submit that my understanding that church, the institution, the organization, the hierarchy, even the society... is not the church. The faithful voluntarily embracing that fellowship are the church.

It seems you are apologizing for the Catholic faith. Which I would suggest you do not need to do.
The teachings betwixt the denominations are not much different.
And I was skived out more by other denomination preachers than I was with the Catholics.
But as always, it's an individual thing. Not a practice/ belief thing.

a reply to: Maxmars

I was raised in a Catholic Orphanage run by Catholic Nuns.

They stole the Birthday and Christmas presents from little orphans ... and sold them to profit in $$$.

Complaints fell on deaf ears.

The Catholic Church is the largest, richest and most powerful multinational corporation on the face of this planet.

Yes, I can still separate Catholic people from the Catholic Church and yes, it needs to be separated.

But tell me, how many Christians do you know that live by the tenants of their Religion?

P

a reply to: pheonix358

From my experience, very few.

a reply to: Maxmars


You left out a key word: Roman

Both my grandmothers were born Roman Catholics. My dads mom became a "Born again Christian ( personal relationship with YHWY through His son Yeshua-Jesus) when she was in her 20s. My moms mom, on her death bed.

Ive been told that all Born again Christians might be considered Catholics, just not Roman Catholics. The Roman part is an infusion of paganism, Satanic worship, and sin. All Born again Christians can also be considered Jewish in a way, as they are the wild Olive branch that was grafted into the olive tree, in place of those branches that were cut off(The Jews who try to get to God the Father through the works system).

With the Roman Catholic system you are not saved immediately like what is specified in the New Testament. Instead, they put you on a drip system like someone in a hospital pushing around a stand on wheels with saline, plasma, or medicine slowly dripping and going into their bloodstream. They string you along with non-Biblical stories.

One thing that really caught my attention, was the singing to Lucifer in the Vatican. Also the shape of the Vatican buildings. A Serpent! The Popes have claimed they are god on Earth. No they are not! I could go on for over an hour on things I have found in my quest for information. Virgin worship..... That goes back to paganism. Mary, mother of god? Seriously? God doesn't have a mother. Remember what Jesus said? " Who is my mother, who are my brothers? Those who do my will and obey me.

Roman Catholicism was in my family. There are also many false Christian churches that teach false doctrine. Any church that teaches something that conflicts with what Christ and his disciples taught is infected with demonic lies.

Remember what scripture teaches how to tell what type of a tree you have? By its fruit! The atrocities that have come out of the Roman Catholic church, and other churches are its fruit.


I don't mean to offend anyone. Just keep in mind that scripture says we are saved by faith, through the grace of God, and not by works, lest any man boasts. That faith rests in Yeshua Jesus, and the price he paid with his own blood on the cross.

If we tell God that Christs blood he shed was a nice gesture, but it is insufficient, then we offer up some works to pay our way to eternal life, he finds it very offensive. Good works can show a good tree, but that is no payment that he will accept. God said that all of our good works are as a filthy rag to Him. Thats a cotex... The whole works system changed with Christ. He is the lamb that was foretold thousands of years previously. He is also known as the Word. In the beginning (before Mary, before any matter, before anything) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh, and tented (in a flesh body) among us.

Peace and wisdom be with you all! You are very loved by the Living God.

a reply to: visitedbythem

You must be evangelical.

originally posted by: randomtangentsrme

From my experience, very few.

Well no one can actually... That is why they believe in working as much as they can towards it, but it is a losing game. Many people don't even put in a second of thought as to the betterment of man, family etc. so even trying is better than most.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: Maxmars

I was raised in a Catholic Orphanage run by Catholic Nuns.

They stole the Birthday and Christmas presents from little orphans ... and sold them to profit in $$$.

Complaints fell on deaf ears.

The Catholic Church is the largest, richest and most powerful multinational corporation on the face of this planet.

Yes, I can still separate Catholic people from the Catholic Church and yes, it needs to be separated.

But tell me, how many Christians do you know that live by the tenants of their Religion?

P

Sorry to hear you got your birthday and Christmas presents stolen, but do you ever stop to wonder what would have become of you if the catholic institution that put a roof over your head, fed, clothed you, and gave you an education for free wasn't there in your time of need?

These institutions were needed at the time because governments simply didn't care enough to do anything about it.

None of them were perfect, many were run by monsters but who else was going to take in unwanted children in their hundreds of thousands?

a reply to: Soloprotocol

but do you ever stop to wonder what would have become of you if the catholic institution that put a roof over your head, fed, clothed you, and gave you an education for free wasn't there in your time of need?

All Catholic Orphanages were paid by the Government on a per child bases. Otherwise the pricks would not have opened the doors in the first place.

People keep falling for these lies spread by the Church.

They were paid once to look after the children and again by the education department to provide the Education.

I was a means to an end and the end for the Church was $$$$.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: Soloprotocol

but do you ever stop to wonder what would have become of you if the catholic institution that put a roof over your head, fed, clothed you, and gave you an education for free wasn't there in your time of need?

All Catholic Orphanages were paid by the Government on a per child bases. Otherwise the pricks would not have opened the doors in the first place.

People keep falling for these lies spread by the Church.
I ask again. Where else were these children to go? Most of these orphanages were hellholes. They didn't have to be connected to the Church either.

They were paid once to look after the children and again by the education department to provide the Education.

I was a means to an end and the end for the Church was $$$$.

P

Which Government, Which Country? As far as I'm aware Catholic orphanages here in the UK were run on donations from the Catholic community. They always had some sort of fundraiser going 365. That was just one parish.

Christ, I can remember a weekly money collection for the Black Babies all the way through my Primary years 5-11. One guy always had to be seen to give the most. It was like a competition for him.

If the "Government" were paying to have these children housed in these places and educated then surely they must bear some level of responsibility.

I ask again. Where else were these children to go? Lots of these orphanages were hellholes. They weren't necessarily all connected to the Catholic Church either, although given the sheer weight of numbers it would appear to everyone on the outside looking in that it was only ever a Catholic problem. It wasn't.

Maybe nobody should have looked after those children?. Maybe they should have just been gassed at birth, allowed to live in the gutter like in India (insert a poor country here)...or hunted down like animals by the Police and vigilante gangs and shot and murdered like in Brazil, and no doubt elsewhere around the globe.

What happened to these children was simply horrendous and should never have been allowed to happen. Not enough people have gone to jail for this. People from all walks of life and religious denominations.

As I return to the thread, I want to first thank you all for your responses. Often, a thread can be created and no one responds... which is unpleasant in that it feels like a conversation denied.

Second-most, I wish to express regret that I may have triggered some members with memories, engendering angst and other bad sentiments. That was not my intent.

Third I intend to respond to those of you who addresses me directly, or simply expressed something I would like to comment on.

Again, thanks.

originally posted by: randomtangentsrme
a reply to: Maxmars

It seems you are apologizing for the Catholic faith. Which I would suggest you do not need to do.

And I agree wholeheartedly. This was no apology. I found it difficult to say, and have it not risk appearing as an apology. So you proved my theory by telling me it was so.

But I hope people understand that no one can ever meaningfully apologize for any 'body of people.' Such a thing is an appeal to emotionalism at best, and virtue signaling at worst. I am much more comfortable with the goal of never 'virtue signaling' than I am to the commitment to never 'appeal to emotions.' But I'm just some guy trying to communicate with a part of his world he happens to respect and like.

Also, I am not calling for forgiveness ... I'm calling for an open recognition that this horrible stigma is not (nor was it ever) limited, or restricted to clergy of a specific church, or even a specific institution.

The tendency to focus the hate on the Catholic church might even be a more egregious injustice if it means that we ignore the same offenses in all governmental halls of power, entertainment industries, 'private' education systems, social service organizations, and so many more.

I'm not apologizing at all. I'm on the one hand urging people to 'think' about their blanket statements, their sources, and the people they are maligning as a group; and on the other warning that while it is common to focus on the most prominently displayed wound, to heal you must look beyond that, and recall that there is no more dangerous an injury than one that is ignored.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: Maxmars

I was raised in a Catholic Orphanage run by Catholic Nuns.
They stole the Birthday and Christmas presents from little orphans ... and sold them to profit in $$$.
Complaints fell on deaf ears.
The Catholic Church is the largest, richest and most powerful multinational corporation on the face of this planet.
Yes, I can still separate Catholic people from the Catholic Church and yes, it needs to be separated.
But tell me, how many Christians do you know that live by the tenants of their Religion?

P

Again, I apologize if this made you relive any of the undeserved grief you suffered at the hands of hypocrites.

They were that, you know, hypocrites. Aside from the thievery, the cruelty, the disregard of the trust and charge they accepted; the hypocrisy is the pain that lasts longest and strikes deepest to me.

It takes a certain kind of individual to 'aspire' to serve the church... it is the kind the hypocrites find easiest to mimic. And they do to great effect.

... how many Christians do you know that live by the tenants of their Religion?

In answer to your question I would venture a 'true' guess...

None.

Some may want to ...
some may try to ...
some may succeed greatly ...
some may fail miserably ...

others might not even try ...

fewer still think those tenets as valid as the Hippocratic oath is to physicians nowadays ... lip service.

a reply to: pheonix358

I am so sorry that happened to you! I've come to realize there's a distinct difference between organized religion and spirituality. I can't imagine Jesus walking into any church today, at least not without turning over a few tables and cracking a whip.

I really miss the fellowship that can be found in churches, but the 'pecking order' and church politics began to seem too antithesis, so I quit attending. He is never far from my mind, though and I actually feel far less conflicted and more empowered than when I was attending.

Kahlil Gibran wrote "Your joy cannot exceed the depth of your sorrow" which I have found to be so true throughout life. It gives a person a depth of character that most people lack.

Celebrate being a survivor and the strong character such a rough start has given you.

originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: Maxmars


You left out a key word: Roman

Both my grandmothers were born Roman Catholics. My dads mom became a "Born again Christian ( personal relationship with YHWY through His son Yeshua-Jesus) when she was in her 20s. My moms mom, on her death bed.

Ive been told that all Born again Christians might be considered Catholics, just not Roman Catholics. The Roman part is an infusion of paganism, Satanic worship, and sin. All Born again Christians can also be considered Jewish in a way, as they are the wild Olive branch that was grafted into the olive tree, in place of those branches that were cut off(The Jews who try to get to God the Father through the works system).

I was impressed with this response visitedbythem. First because you identify something I felt uncertain could be avoided... but kind of hoped to. I expect whoever relayed the idea that Catholic exists as a usurped entity - by the Roman element, may be well aware of early church history, which included a sort of tug of war (waged over generations) about 'crafting' a facade of dogma and heresy. The Catholic church is, in my opinion, unquestionably fundamental to the larger community of Abrahamic religions. And there is no doubt that hostile targeting of the apparatus of the church was nearly immediate, with varying degrees of success ... and has been ongoing ever since.

So yeah, maybe the Roman Catholic church is distinct... but I believe Catholics rarely, if ever, labor to separate themselves from other Catholics over such a thing as 'flavors' of Catholicism. There are exceptions of course. I didn't want to discuss this because I felt it might lead to a drift in the conversation away from the core message; stop allowing the 'influencers" and "activist journalists" of the world tell you how to think of this community of Christians. And remember the favorite sin to belabor is not in any way restricted to the Catholic Institution, let alone the church of faithful.

a reply to: Maxmars

A lot of it comes down to those who don't distinguish between the community of worshippers and certain aspects of the church hierarchy.

There are very serious clergy issues, all the way up to the one they have titled "Pope".

But I still occasionally attend mass and appreciate the fellowship of the others there. The vast majority of them are decent people who treasure their faith for a variety of reasons.

I think many of the lay Catholics understand the Church has serious problems. But finding ways forward that cure the ills is something else altogether.

Cheers

a reply to: Maxmars

I am a Catholic who began Kindergarden through the 4th grade in a Catholic School. I then transferred to a public school as my parents wanted the best education for us. I had an uncle who was a Pastor. He was a decent man. I also had another uncle who was gay. He also was a decent man. They, I, we never witnessed the abuse of children. I also belive that it did happen. I also stopped to going to church decades ago. I returned to the church in 2021 after meeting a person whom changed my perspective on life.

I have consulted on what I experienced with said person with three PhD's including Dr. David Hufford and Dr. Sheila Pryce Brooks of York University in London. It was a feeling of energy of kind love. It wasnt sexual of any sort. She [Brooks] interviewed me for two hours by zoom call to document the experience and other matters. I also spoke with two priests including Father Robert Morey of The Catholic Diocise of Charleston. Hes also a Vatican trained Exorcist. He was at my home to bless same and to explain to me possibly what I experience.

In brief all five stated that I am spiritually gifted, that whom I met in 2021 was possibly my "Twin Flame" that said person was channelling Gods love through her to me.

Father Morey explained to me that here on earth its a 50 / 50 split between good / evil and that evil can also exist in the church as Satan is as powerful as God here on earth. I never knew until 2021 that the Catholic church recognized Incarnation, Reincarnation, Soul Mate, Twin Flame, Witchcraft, Spells and much much more. I feel that I now have an understanding of my life and why I am still alive as there is a huge backstory to my journey that I wont go into here.

What my point is that both priests whom I have spoken with here in South Carolina were quite pragmatic, grounded human beings who arent bible thumpers. Father Dennis was a former Helicopter Gunship Pilot and Father Morey was a former Federal Prosecutor for the EPA .

At this time in 2023, I will still stand by and with the Catholic church and belive in God with the understanding that I can still be physically harmed here on earth by others and need to do whatever it takes to survive the sickness that seems to have enveloped the entire earth.

There is much written out there if you want to dig for it. Many dont. As the X files; The truth is out there.

What puspose does it serve when you push your child aside and hate it for the rest of its life when it did something wrong. Forgiveness denied, subject of grudge for the rest of its life, a life ruined, possibilities rejected. It doesn't make it a better child. Some cast the first stone. We are all people and yet still people choose to live by their hate.

originally posted by: Untun
What puspose does it serve when you push your child aside and hate it for the rest of its life when it did something wrong. Forgiveness denied, subject of grudge for the rest of its life, a life ruined, possibilities rejected. It doesn't make it a better child. Some cast the first stone. We are all people and yet still people choose to live by their hate.

I can't help but wonder if it isn't as simple as that it "feels good" to hate. So much so that we 'cherish' hating... even more so if it involves positive feedback, full of vitriol and angst. Maybe "hating together" is easier than any other social harmony... it certainly appears easier than getting people not to hate... let alone to love.

PS. I like your siggy, although I must confess, your "SATAN" avatar makes me curious.

We had no bad priests. Did Catholic schools for years with nuns also. A bit mean but none of them stole. They were all awesome in fact. But we did have a PE coach and he molested over a dozen kids. I was always mad as a kid when my parents would not let me attend the sleep overs before the games on the weekends. The parents all trusted him and he preyed on boys and girls. Sick bastard.

Did that make me not want to be catholic anymore? No, but it did lead me to coaching baseball for the last 30 years. I never wanted any child to go through what my friends did. I left Catholicism for other reasons.

So it is not just a 'religion' or one 'organization', just like anything, there are sick people everywhere and they know how to take advantage when they want to.