Wind and Rain a Four Hundred Year Old Ballad and Fairy Tale

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Good spotting on those features.

One thing to note is that course of the river has certainly changed since the Middle Ages. Some features may now be away from its current banks. An example is the feature about 60 meters SSE of the excavated area you point out; sort of a irregular muddy ring with a green center. Old building foundation?



Overall, I agree this is a promising area to dig into. You could also send a letter to the village administration and see if there are local historians who may know where mills were in the old days.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

There is only so much one can do with satellite photos considering that we are going back some 500 years or more. Also, they have a larger corn mill at the park from the 1800s, obviously the area has under gone lots of changes from when this song was written.

I'm not sure I'm committed enough to write letters, but maybe if I find something to go on I could go that route. I've done one rabbit hunt like this before and solved the mystery to my satisfaction . . .

"The Lost Forbidden Pit of Africa" Monster

Another angle to try to approach this from is that this story is far older then I am going and may come from some place farther south and east of Northern Europe. There was one study I looked at that trace the origins of fairy tales through linguistic means and had found sources going back as much as 6,000 years.

No fairy tale: Origins of some famous stories go back thousands of years Statistical analysis of language evolution helps estimate storytelling dates

. . . “‘The Smith and the Devil’ is the one we feel absolutely confident as being a Proto-Indo-European tale,” Tehrani says.

The story is about a blacksmith who makes a deal with an evil supernatural being for the power to weld any material together. Since the tale is associated with Proto-Indo-European language and includes a character who typically works with metal, the researchers park its origins around 6,000 years ago, in the Bronze Age.

The list of stories didn't have the two sisters or the jealous sister but did have "The Faithless Sister" as one that goes way back, however, that story isn't the same, but it was from India and survived into Ireland until today.

www.sciencenews.org...

I'm going to start here with the De Clare family from 1278 to 1318. If that pans out, then we are going back some 400 years before the song was written down in the 1650s.

These lands were later handed back to (or taken back by) King Henry III and granted to Thomas De Clare, a descendant of Strongbow in 1276. De Clare built the first stone structure on the site (the second castle). This castle was occupied from ca. 1278 to 1318 and consisted of a large single stone tower with lime white walls. It stood close to the river, on or near the site of the present Bunratty Castle. In the late 13th century, Bunratty had about 1,000 inhabitants. The castle was attacked several times by the O'Briens (or O'Brians) and their allies. In 1284, while De Clare was away in England, the site was captured and destroyed. On his return, in 1287, De Clare had the site rebuilt and a 140-yard (130 m) long fosse built around it. The castle was again attacked but it did not fall until 1318. In that year a major battle was fought at Dysert O'Dea as part of the Irish Bruce Wars, in which Richard de Clare was killed. Lady De Clare, on learning this, fled from Bunratty to Limerick after burning castle and town. The De Clare family never returned to the area and the remains of the castle eventually collapsed. As the stones were probably used for other local construction works, no traces remain of this second castle.[4]

There is a third very short castle period 1353-1355 . . .

In 1353, Sir Thomas de Rokeby led an English army to conquer the MacNamaras and MacCarthys. A new castle (the third) was built at Bunratty, but once again, its exact location is unknown. Local tradition holds that it stood at the site where the Bunratty Castle Hotel was later constructed. The new structure was hardly finished before it was captured by the Irish. Documents show that in 1355,

en.wikipedia.org...

The de Clare family seems a really good lead, have a look at this Wiki article about it . . .

The House of Clare was a prominent Anglo-Norman noble house that held at various times the earldoms of Pembroke, Hertford and Gloucester in England and Wales, as well as playing a prominent role in the Norman invasion of Ireland. They were descended from Richard Fitz Gilbert, Lord of Clare (1035-1090), a kinsman of William the Conqueror who accompanied him into England during the Norman conquest of England. As a reward for his service, Richard was given lands in Suffolk centred on the village of Clare. As a result, Richard and his descendants carried the name of ‘de Clare’ or ‘of Clare’.

The Clare family derived in the male line from Gilbert, Count of Brionne, whose father Geoffrey, Count of Eu was an illegitimate son of Richard I, Duke of Normandy by an unknown mistress. Gilbert de Brionne was one of the guardians of William II, who became Duke of Normandy as a child in 1035. When Gilbert was assassinated in 1039 or 1040, his young sons Baldwin and Richard fitz Gilbert fled with their guardians to Baldwin V, Count of Flanders; they returned to Normandy when William married Baldwin's daughter in 1053, and William took them into high favour. After the conquest of England, Richard fitz Gilbert received extensive estates, notably including Clare and Tonbridge.

Normans? "Count of Brionne" (c. 1000 – c. 1040) or "Binnorie"? and "William II"?

I think we are talking France maybe. That last part may be involved in our story . . .

when William married Baldwin's daughter in 1053, and William took them into high favour. After the conquest of England, Richard fitz Gilbert received extensive estates, notably including Clare and Tonbridge.

This may be the best yet . . .

Children Gilbert de Brionne married Herleve de Falaise[8] and with her had the following children:

Sir Richard fitz Gilbert (Richard de Clare) (bef. 1035 – c. 1090), m.
Rohese Giffard (1034 – aft. 1113), daughter of Walter Giffard, Lord of Longueville[9]
Baldwin FitzGilbert (d. 1090)[5]
William (died after 29 August 1060)
Adela (died August 1092), m. Neel II, Viscount of Cotentin (fr)
Emma, m. Hugh de Waft
Hesilia, m. William Malet, Honour of Eye

Through his eldest son, Gilbert was ancestor of the English house of de Clare, of the Barons FitzWalter, and the Earls of Gloucester and Hertford. After Gilbert's death, his uncle William I became Count of Eu whereas Brionne reverted to duke.

en.wikipedia.org...

I think I'm getting really close with that last family and found out more about them on genealogy websites. I'm particularly interested in Gilbert's son Baldwin FitzGilbert's daughters listed below now in bold type.

Here is what I found that fits this story . . .

Baudouin FitzGilbert de Brionne (de Meules), Lord of Okehampton, Sheriff of Devon Also Known As: "Baldwin"
Birthdate: circa 1022
Birthplace: Meules, Normandy, France
Death: February 1090 (63-72)
Father of:
Wiger fitzBaldwin de Brionne;
Robert Clare (fitzBaldwin);
William FitzBaldwin;
Richard FitzBaldwin, Lord Of Okehampton;

Adelise FitzBaldwin;
Birthdate: circa 1066 Birthplace: Meules, Normandy, France
Death: August 24, 1142 (71-80) Exeter, Devonshire, England

Daughter (Name Unknown) Fitzbaldwin
Birthdate: circa 1062
Birthplace: Meules, Normandy, France
Death: Unknown
Immediate Family: Half sister of Wiger fitzBaldwin de Brionne Robert de Mueles;

Mathilde FitzBaldwin
Birthdate: estimated between 1024 and 1068
Death: Unknown
Wife of (Lord Sir) William fitzWimund d'Avranches

Emme de Brionne
Birthdate: estimated between 1036 and 1096
Birthplace: Brionne, Eure, Normandy, France
Death: August 24, 1142 Oakhampton, Devonshire, England
Immediate Family: Daughter of Baldwin de Meules, Viscount of Brionne and Alberède (possibly) le Goz Wife of William Avenal and Hugh de Waft Mother of William de Avenel, of Haddon Sister of Robert Clare (fitzBaldwin); William FitzBaldwin; Richard FitzBaldwin, Lord Of Okehampton; Adelise FitzBaldwin; Daughter Fitzbaldwin; Robert de Mueles and Mathilde FitzBaldwin. Half sister of Wiger fitzBaldwin de Brionne
Occupation: Heir of Okehampton Brother of Richard FitzGilbert de Bienfaite, Lord of Clare and of Tonbridge and Guillaume de Brionne Occupation: Lord, Sheriff of Devonshire 1100

So there were at least four sisters in this family, one with no name or date of death. Two of those sisters are older than her and one married a man named Sir William and the other another man named William as well as a man name Hugh. So that has this unnamed daughter with no date of death, having a brother in law named Hugh and an older sister who married a Sir William that also has no date of death. Also this family is closely related to the House of de Clare, and County Clare Ireland. Sounds like it fits the bill, now maybe I can find out just a bit more before I leave it here.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

If the Hugh fits ...

I think you're very close now.

Cheers

I just did a quick search of musical instruments made from human bones, specifically a fiddle, and found that the flute made from human bones has been popular since the stone age Neanderthals along with horns, drums, and more. People are still doing it today as disgusting as that seems.

Use of human remains to mock the dead is an old practice.

I recall one assertion that the origin of the faces we see on today's clowns was the Roman Coliseum. The story was that when someone fell in combat, their face was 'scalped' and worn by an 'entertainer' who cavorted about the Coliseum, to the great amusement of the viewing public. Thus, the clown face today of today with the pale skin and the blood (red) around the eyes.

Was someone trying to mock the dead 'fair' sister by using her remains to make a fiddle ? Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised.

Cheers

I added some more to that post about those sisters that supports the story. I feel like that's enough and will let this go until my next strange coincidence with this music occurs. I have to break away for awhile, there have been a lot of weird things with me and music, it's been building for about three years now. This has been over the top so far.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

That you felt compelled to play the guitar again was kind of eerie, tbh. Like the story was 'out there' and looking for a medium to make itself heard again.

Great dig!

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

It gets far creepier, this wasn't the first old folk song to enter my mind. The situation with the last one was even creepier but both times got me very upset, to the point of tears. Something seems to be leading this in me and I've been foolishly encouraging it for at least two years.

It has been a great creative writing tool, fantastic actually, for some fiction I've been working on. I don't want to describe what I've been doing, but I will tell you this, my entertainment computer, the one with all my music and videos, is mostly equipment I acquired from people I know who passed away and is what I listen to when I write, the one that played this song. You may not want to hear the rest of it, but the first chapter is online, I'll PM a link if you so desire.

Also, this story from the song will be incorporated into one of the chapters, and how it fits is creepy as well, of course. I'd like to thank you for your input and encouragement as well, it really helped me get to this point on this subject.

Perhaps this daughter with no name or date of death, who may have been the poor girl who drown, needs to be named and recognized as the victim of this ballad.

Found this re: Okehampton Castle, which was built by Baldwin Fitzgilbert, one of the figures of the era you're looking at.

Legend has it that the castle is haunted by the spirit of a Lady Howard, who is said to have murdered three of her husbands and two of her children. An old ballad is sung about this ghost: "My Ladye hath a sable coach, with horses two an four. My Ladye hath a gaunt blood-hound, that goeth before. My Ladye’s coach hath nodding plumes, the driver hath no head. My Ladye is an ashen white - as one who is long dead." The lady is reputed to be from the 17th century. She uses a coach made of the bones of her victims and her hound has one eye. Her curse is to collect blades of grass found in the castle ruins, either until the end of time, or until she finds her peace of mind by collecting all blades of grass from the area.

Some commonalities there with the ballad you're looking at, might have been popular themes in the ballads of those days.

Perhaps this daughter with no name or date of death, who may have been the poor girl who drown, needs to be named and recognized as the victim of this ballad.

MSB, one never knows. I've encountered enough odd stuff in my life that I consider a lot of things possible. That idea fits, for example, with instances in which psychics have been able to assist the police in solving murders (I think the police call those "blue cases" or something similar). It is ironic how much the establishment mocks the paranormal but is willing to use its products for its own interests.

Cheers

The folk tale "Binnorie," Joseph Jacobs, English Fairy Tales (London: David Nutt, 1890), was a story created from at least two versions of the Two Sisters ballad from the 1650's collection. This is the author's synthesis of the ballad into a folk tale and why it seemed to me to have been an earlier version of the story.

This ballad was called "Binnorie" but was more like "The Twa Sisters" and has what I would consider an old English style of wording that may help date this version of the song as being older than 1656 (as it is claimed in "The legendary ballads of England and Scotland", the source of this version).

Ultimately, I will have to pick a version or two and stick with those as there are so many different versions. This one has William, her brother Hugh and names the murderous sister as Helen. That changes things a little and may have me continue the search in other areas. Of course, this could have been a detail that changed from the actual story this ballad was written about.

Having looked over the 21 versions listed by Child in 1656 (earliest known record), the places of origin include London England in 2 versions, Edinburgh Scotland in 3 and Binnorie (unknown country) 5 times. So I'm going with the most mentioned place name even though it may make more sense to determine the oldest version and go with that one. Also I think that both London and Edinburgh would have some kind of historic record of this story and would have solved this mystery by now, but because no one has made a connection to either, it makes the most mentioned unknown place name more likely in my mind. Actually there is another Binnore version recorded by a Mr. Jamieson, bringing my total to 6 versions with this place name.

I will then filter out any contradictions between these six versions leaving me with the common details of all of them. Then it will be trying to fit a place and a family with the story I have left.

Not sure if you've seen this.

I didn't see this before when searching, but when I searched today for "Binnore" (not Binnorie), it was the first hit.

Hmm.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Thanks, a great painting! The story was the composite of the ballads as found in "English Fairy Tales" 1890. The others were from the Child collection in 1656. I think I was close before, esp. with your help on the Brionne/Binnorie connection. It's all such a shot in the dark, but something about the Binnorie versions of this ballad seem right to me.