Olive Branches

a reply to: LSU2018

Things have moved on since then and the stakes have been raised a little higher.

But I respect opinions that say you shouldn't get involved.

Just don't agree.

If no one stood up to Putin, who would be next?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: LSU2018
Neither of which involve the US.

As a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum, it does involve the United States.

Looks like that covers the use of nuclear weapons. No nuclear weapons have been used.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Baker: If that happens, our troops will return home. We will leave any country that does
not desire our presence. The American people have always had a strong position favoring this.
However, if the current West German leadership is at the head of a unified Germany then they
have said to us they will be against our withdrawal.
And the last point. NATO is the mechanism for securing the U.S. presence in Europe. If
NATO is liquidated, there will be no such mechanism in Europe. We understand that not only for
the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that
if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch
of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.

Link (PDF)

Frankly you've changed your position in this thread several times, without even having the courtesy to answer my initial point, so it's not clear what you are besides wishy washy.

My position has been crystal clear since day 1. The US shouldn't be involved and certainly any aid should be a congressional decision.

Your point is the Budapest Memorandum and that's why the US is involved. Except by the US, Russian and even Ukraine's actions, reactions and stances it shows it to be nothing but a good gesture document.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: JinMI

It would be a great political coup for China to broker a cease-fire deal where biden failed to do so. They could further the damage by portraying biden as a war monger for his actions to incite Ukraine to take the steps that led to the invasion by Russia. On the world stage, that would be a great move for China that would slap the ice cream right out of jo jo's mouth.

It would be quite a selling point for BRICS to other nations.

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: LSU2018

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Yes. Perhaps Britain should invade America because it used to be ours and the people there mostly are English speaking (sort of) and it has some Nazis?

How many times have y'all tried that and failed...

The smell of smoke in Washington DC.

Reminds me of an old song....



In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip'
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans

We fired our guns and the British kept a-comin'
There wasn't as many as there was a while ago
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico

We looked down a river and we see'd the British come
And there must have been a hundred of 'em beatin' on the drum
They stepped so high and they made their bugles ring
We stood behind our cotton bales and didn't say a thing

We fired our guns and the British kept a-comin'
There wasn't as many as there was a while ago
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico

Old Hickory said, "We could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye"
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well
Then we opened up our squirrel guns and gave 'em

Well, we fired our guns and the British kept a-comin'
There wasn't as many as there was a while ago
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico

Yeah, they ran through the briers and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico

originally posted by: LSU2018

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: LSU2018
Neither of which involve the US.

As a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum, it does involve the United States.

Looks like that covers the use of nuclear weapons. No nuclear weapons have been used.

It was an agreement they give up their nukes on exchange for security should their sovereignty be threatened.

When the USSR dissolved, they had the largest amount of nukes outside of Russia. That would have been a global security nightmare, a country figuring out their new government structure with people who might line their pockets during the chaos.

originally posted by: LSU2018
Looks like that covers the use of nuclear weapons. No nuclear weapons have been used.

Looks like you're not reading that properly. Try again.

a reply to: LSU2018

I love songs that where written by people who witnessed the actual event.



Oh hang on a minute, the chap who wrote " The Battle Of New Orleans " was born in 1907. Poetic license or what ?

originally posted by: JinMI
My position has been crystal clear since day 1. The US shouldn't be involved and certainly any aid should be a congressional decision.

Your point is the Budapest Memorandum and that's why the US is involved. Except by the US, Russian and even Ukraine's actions, reactions and stances it shows it to be nothing but a good gesture document.

That quote is in regards what Gorbachev said earlier, no eastern movement of NATO in the former GDR. That doctrine is still being followed.

I guess I prefer to keep my word in regards treaties the United States signs. It's okay if you feel we should be summer allies.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Is Poland east of Germany?

I guess I prefer to keep my word in regards treaties the United States signs. It's okay if you feel we should be summer allies.

Sure, we are all entitled to our opinions.

If three nations are actively in a treaty, that is two protecting the subject and the subject is respnsible for the erosion if not violation of that treaty, what does that treaty really mean?


A war.....apparently.

originally posted by: JinMI
The AFP on Twitter is reporting that talks between Xi and Putin are having an effect. Talks of a cease fire and an invite to Zelensky

Meanwhile, the Japanese PM is also on the way to Ukraine.

Japanese PM to Ukraine

Zelensky invites China

Interesting turn of events.

I'm curious to what it looks like on a world stage when peace is negotiated between eastern nations while the west is pushing for more war.

So Russia (the aggressor) and China (third party) negotiated a peace treaty and then invited the victim to join it?

Ummm, and you even wrote it that way. You do understand how fake this all is, right? This has nothing to do with peace. It's just political posturing.

A criminal doesn't get to court the victim to prove how nice they are. They could just stop the war and pull out.

You, my friend, are very, very, very gullible if you fell for this.

If ya'll look at the other threads about the war, I am far from a supporter of the official Western narrative about the war and don't believe in the "Ukraine must win at any cost to the U.S.!" strategy.

But guys, c'mon. Everyone knows if a ceasefire is called without Russia giving up any ground, they will just use the time to fortify their positions and re-arm.

If you were Ukraine, you wouldn't agree to a ceasefire under those conditions. Pretending that that's because Ukraine doesn't want peace is just silly.

There are plenty of legitimate things to question about the war. This isn't one of them.

a reply to: Mahogany

Russia is a side of the war. China has expressed, in material and verbal terma, their support for Russia.

The same relationship the US has with Ukraine, without the shared border as well as degrees of aid.

I dont think you get to lecture anyone on gullibility...

a reply to: face23785

Wouldnt Ukraine also be given the same boon?

originally posted by: JinMI
Is Poland east of Germany?

Is Poland the GDR?

If three nations are actively in a treaty, that is two protecting the subject and the subject is respnsible for the erosion if not violation of that treaty, what does that treaty really mean?

Let me know when that happens because in the case being discussed Russia invaded Ukraine and it had nothing to do with your NATO expansion strawman nor does that impact the Memorandum.

But, just in case I am misunderstanding your words even though I am pretty sure I am not, what is, in your own words, the justification for Russia invading Ukraine?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Poland is east of Germany, as is Hungary.
Even a reuified Germany was rolled in.

Let me know when that happens because in the case being discussed Russia invaded Ukraine and it had nothing to do with your NATO expansion strawman nor does that impact the Memorandum.

Putin has only been talking about it for 20 years or so.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

But, just in case I am misunderstanding your words even though I am pretty sure I am not, what is, in your own words, the justification for Russia invading Ukraine?

Ah, there it is.

Only took 3 pages

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JinMI
Let's not talk fantasy and instead focus on reality.

Thanks.

The reality is if that your neighbor broke into your house you would kill them or pummel them until they left. Not wait for your neighbor and some dude in a completely different neighborhood to figure out what was best for you.

Or I could be wrong.

Not if you live in California. You will be arrested for shooting someone who has broke and entered and is armed.

Your guns have to be unloaded and locked in your safe at all times.

When you transport your gun to a shooting range, the law used to be that you had to have your gun visible for law enforcement, and the rounds had to be locked separate in the trunk. It used to make me nervous to go to the range and have the pistol on the dash or passenger seat. Cops will certainly draw on you.
Remember the lefts motto: Criminal lives matter.
We can do this!
Yes we can!

originally posted by: JinMI
Poland is east of Germany, as is Hungary.
Even a reuified Germany was rolled in.

Huh? Gorbachev agreed to allow the GDR to join NATO if no weapons were stationed there, to this day there are none.

Putin has only been talking about it for 20 years or so.

So are you finally admitting Putin violated the Budapest Memorandum unprovoked?

originally posted by: JinMI
Ah, there it is.

Only took 3 pages

Did it? You still have this very odd ability to not articulate a position. What is it? Be clear.