Bakhmut about to fall.

a reply to: Cutepants

Commodities can be money.

Then I misunderstood. It seemed like you were saying if it wasn't a specific currency, it didn't "count."

Did we even sanction Russia before 2014?

That is irrelevant to the discussion of the animosity between Russia and Ukraine. It is perhaps relevant to why Russia and China are now economic allies.

The USA is not the policeman of the planet (even though we sometimes seem to think we are). Russia, like Ukraine, is a sovereign country.

UN will vote how it votes. That's like complaining your presidential candidate didn't win because people are dumb. Maybe, but so what? They have the right to be wrong then.

I cannot agree with that. The UN is supposed to be an arbiter between nations to prevent war. That implies, even demands, that their decisions hold some sort of fairness. Your metaphor fails because it tries to equate justice with political preference. A more apt metaphor would be if someone was allowed to continually harass you because their father was the Mayor and would not allow prosecution no matter the evidence.

Russia's piping gas through Ukraine even now with the war going on.

Some, yes. The amount of EU gas from Russia has dropped from near 50% to just over 10%. I suspect that is because Russia is not going to sell their product for a currency they cannot use. Last I heard, they would not accept Euros, US dollars, or several other currencies for their fuels, because they would be immediately frozen upon receipt. Russia will still sell fuel, but they now accept mainly rubles, gold, or yuan. Few EU countries are willing to pay using those currencies.

China, on the other hand, is happy to pay in yuan. Yuan is the Chinese currency, and they have not frozen Russian yuan assets so Russia can freely trade with them.

I find it intriguing that, despite the sanctions and penal attempts against them, Russia is still willing to sell their fuels to the EU at all. That is actually an act of compassion, not the act of a megalomaniac bent on world conquest. They own their fuel; they can sell it to whoever they want to. To be honest, considering all the trouble they have had with Ukraine supplying fuel to Europe, I would have just closed the spigot off completely.

True, but then Russia has been forcing people there to speak Russian for centuries. It's better to break the cycle.

Russia has been forcing people in Ukraine to speak Russian? Can I get a link for that?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

There are some interesting points about the language thing here:

www.atlanticcouncil.org...

"This pragmatism has not prevented Russia and Ukraine’s pro-Kremlin political parties from masterfully exploiting the language issue. Since the early 2000s, Russian-speaking Ukrainians have been actively encouraged to think of themselves as a distinct and oppressed minority. This messaging reached a crescendo during the Kremlin’s 2014 annexation of Crimea and the subsequent “Russian Spring” campaign throughout southern and eastern Ukraine. It has remained at the heart of Russia’s ongoing hybrid war against Ukraine ever since, with the need to defend Ukraine’s Russian-speaking population repeatedly cited by the Kremlin media and Vladimir Putin himself."

No, folk are not forced to speak Russian, but the language issue seems to have been made a propaganda tool. Probably by both sides, but there you go.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Shocking if true.

Hundreds of Russian troops have been killed in Bakhmut as Vladimir Putin’s troops seek to wrest control of the frontline Donetsk city – with Kyiv’s snipers said to have set up a “killing zone”.
Some 520 Russian troops were killed and wounded in Bakhmut alone in one day’s fighting, Ukraine’s military said, claiming Russia had suffered 2,000 fatalities since Friday – marking some of the deadliest days of the war since the invasion began.

www.independent.co.uk...

a reply to: TheRedneck

That is irrelevant to the discussion of the animosity between Russia and Ukraine. It is perhaps relevant to why Russia and China are now economic allies.

I thought we were talking about whether the West has been patient or not? And a lot of people seem to complain about the US policing the world too much.

I cannot agree with that. The UN is supposed to be an arbiter between nations to prevent war.

So you're saying the UN should be given power over the member states somehow, so they can force them to do the right thing? Do you think there should be UN elections too so people can have a say in what the UN decides then?

Russia will still sell fuel, but they now accept mainly rubles, gold, or yuan. Few EU countries are willing to pay using those currencies.

I'm just saying Ukraine or any other country can't be blamed for that if the gas is still allowed to flow to the extent that there are willing buyers.

I find it intriguing that, despite the sanctions and penal attempts against them, Russia is still willing to sell their fuels to the EU at all. That is actually an act of compassion, not the act of a megalomaniac bent on world conquest.

You're not that naive, stop pretending. They're selling because they want money and others want gas. It's a great example to compare to the situation with China too. Even when countries want to go to war that doesn't change economic realities.

Russia has been forcing people in Ukraine to speak Russian? Can I get a link for that?

There's a lot, do you have any particular sources you trust?

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: alldaylong

Good to get back on topic.

It's a killing zone for sure.

I don't think Bakhmut has any great strategic value but Ukraine seems to be using it as a tactic to degrade Russian manpower.

And Russia seems intent on throwing poor sods into that meat grinder regardless.

Shocking, but there you go.

"Disclaimer". I neither know nor claim to know Putin's innermost thoughts, before I get ranted at, again.

Just an observation.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

The thing is that most Russians (all of them that I have spoken to) consider Ukraine a separate country, but one with ties to Russia. They even have gone so far as to describe Ukraine as a country in perpetual civil war. Historically, eastern Ukraine is inhabited by the Ros people, while western Ukraine is populated by European peoples. This seems to be the single largest issue: it is a continual struggle between those who want ties to Europe at the expense of Russian ties, and those who want closer ties to Russia at the expense of European ties.

In recent times, Kyiv has been taken over politically by those who prefer ties to Europe. Thus, there are political agendas to try and remove all traces of Ros heritage from eastern Ukraine.

I get the concept that a nation should have an "official language." I wish the USA would adopt English as theirs (at present we have no official language). I do not get the concept of not allowing those of different heritages and cultures to speak their own languages among themselves. The official language is for state-sponsored communication, not for private communication.

What does it matter to any government if some of their citizens choose to speak privately in Russian, Spanish, or even Zulu? It doesn't, and to try and force a language out of existence is just more of the "cancel culture" nonsense.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck


"The thing is that most Russians (all of them that I have spoken to) consider Ukraine a separate country, but one with ties to Russia."

Yes, but unfortunately most Russians don't get a say in these things . Putin does and what he says goes. Or else.

"In recent times, Kyiv has been taken over politically by those who prefer ties to Europe"

Because, like most former vassal states of the late and unlamented Soviet Union, those folk generally lean towards Europe rather than going back into Putin's grasp.

Unsurprisingly, one might think?

a reply to: Cutepants

Agreed, but I thought we were talking about whether Bakhmut was about to fall?

The idea of Ukraine being a separate country can be ambiguous anyway. Even a separate country can be considered to be part of the Russian empire or USSR, or part of the vaguer concept of "the Russian world".

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Yeah you're right

a reply to: TheRedneck

"This seems to be the single largest issue: it is a continual struggle between those who want ties to Europe at the expense of Russian ties, and those who want closer ties to Russia at the expense of European ties."

No, the single largest issue is Putin's invasion and his War.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: alldaylong

Good to get back on topic.

It's a killing zone for sure.

I don't think Bakhmut has any great strategic value but Ukraine seems to be using it as a tactic to degrade Russian manpower.

And Russia seems intent on throwing poor sods into that meat grinder regardless.

Shocking, but there you go.

"Disclaimer". I neither know nor claim to know Putin's innermost thoughts, before I get ranted at, again.

Just an observation.

If you play chess it's a pin. They know Russia just can't walk away and will continue to expel resources. Ukraine has set up kill boxes that don't need a lot of troops to man. If they send troops snipers pick them off. If they go with armor artillery does.


Russia should have given up but can't because of the Russian press making it seem important to win the war even though it's not.

a reply to: Cutepants

I thought we were talking about whether the West has been patient or not?

The UN is controlled by Western values. I thought that was so self-evident as to be understood.

So you're saying the UN should be given power over the member states somehow, so they can force them to do the right thing?

Personally I wish the UN didn't exist... but that aside, since they do exist, they should at least be fair and balanced when dealing with member nations. And they do have power... International courts, peace-keeping military forces, etc. That is their charter.

Do you think there should be UN elections too so people can have a say in what the UN decides then?

There are already. Votes are not from the populations of member nations, but are from the ambassadors of those member nations.

You really don't know how the UN functions or what it does?

I'm just saying Ukraine or any other country can't be blamed for that if the gas is still allowed to flow to the extent that there are willing buyers.

I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that. Should shoplifting be legal as long as Walmart is still open?

They're selling because they want money and others want gas.

Of course they are... where did I say different? I said it is well within Russia's authority to not sell. I also added that I would have preferred the lack of sales to the hassle if I were in their position. The fact that Russia is still willing to sell despite the long history of problems does not indicate megalomania. A megalomaniac would have simply launched a butt-load of missiles a long time ago.

I have owned a business before. I have refused to service potential customers if they caused too much of a problem. Sometimes dealing with a problem is not worth the potential income.

Did I mention many of those previous disputes were over Ukraine failing to pay for Russian fuels? Some were also claiming Russia had failed to pay for pipeline use. Do you expect people to continue to do business for no profit?

do you have any particular sources you trust?

Wiki is fine for now. Reading through it, however, it sounds like the only reference to language in the 2020 amendments was to simply make Russian the official language of Russia.

I would have no issue with Ukraine making Ukrainian the official language of Ukraine (assuming it isn't already). A country should have an official language. However, as I explained above, there's a world of difference between declaring an official language and actively persecuting people for using an alternate language privately. That is what Ukraine has been doing, according to reports.

It is starting to sound like you hold some inner bias against Russia yourself; I am noticing you tend to excuse anything Ukraine does while demonizing anything Russia does. I don't know if that is intentional or not; the MSM has been promoting such a bias for a very long time.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Cutepants

The USSR does not exist.

TheRedneck

a reply to: dragonridr

Yes, it's like WW1 all over again. Sending waves of troops over the top into machine gunners.

A meat grinder. No less.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Putin wants it back?

Just an observation, mind, not claiming any insight into his innermost thoughts, to be clear.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yes, like Lavrov. The UN Security Council is toothless because Russia and China veto stuff.

Turkey's probably won't vote for Christmas.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

No, the single largest issue is Putin's invasion and his War.

I was referring to why the Russian invasion happened. If there is to be a diplomatic solution, the causes of the aggression must be considered.

If there is not a diplomatic solution, either Russia or Ukraine will be destroyed; it would probably be Ukraine. There is also the distinct possibility of a major escalation into WWIII (which may already be a foregone conclusion).

So which do you want? Diplomatic solutions or WWIII? Choose wisely.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I have seen nothing to indicate Putin wants another USSR.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Come on, that's a loaded question.

I want Putin to end this atrocious War. Which he could do right now.

One person's "diplomatic solution" is another's surrender to and appeasement of an invader.