Few questions about ascending in Freemasonry.

Just a matter of getting a response to Sebatwerks challenge. I don't want it being said that I didn't allow driver to answer.

Let's not lose sight of whats important here folks.

Let us suppose that every Lodge wanted to make sure they have the EXACT right ritual, and oaths. I mean, its no skin off the Lodge's nose to correct a few words, right?

So they call the Grand Lodge of that State, and co-ordinate. The Grand Lodge (of each state), in turn, has compared their ritual and oaths with each other, to make sure it is all the same, accomplished by designating one Lodge for the other Grand Lodge's to call.

I presume in a period of 6-8 weeks all Masonic ritual and oaths in regular Masonry would be standardized.

"On the one hand, you guys will say, we're not going to change the wording, because its all about the tradition, its been this way the entire history of Freemasonry.

Then, you will turn around and say, the oath I said was not exactly that one. There are lots of variations of the ritual out there, and my Lodge doesn't use that one."

So why is it that you guys say the Grand Lodges acts independently, and that's why the rituals are all slightly 'Individualistic'? Wouldn't it benefit all of Freemasonry to do this?

So yeah, I do have to say, I don't believe the Oaths vary AT ALL, and even if they did, individual Masons would not KNOW for sure (as I'm sure they will point out, neither can I know for sure, which is why I have dedicated my life to becoming a Master Speculator, most things in life cannot be KNOWN for sure), because they have only taken and witnessed their own Lodge's rituals and oaths.

Originally posted by akilles
Let's not lose sight of whats important here folks.

Let us suppose that every Lodge wanted to make sure they have the EXACT right ritual, and oaths. I mean, its no skin off the Lodge's nose to correct a few words, right?

So they call the Grand Lodge of that State, and co-ordinate. The Grand Lodge (of each state), in turn, has compared their ritual and oaths with each other, to make sure it is all the same, accomplished by designating one Lodge for the other Grand Lodge's to call.

Been tried. In the early 1800's Almost started a Masonic war....because EACH jurisdiction was SURE that THEIR version was RIGHT. We ARE human after all...

I presume in a period of 6-8 weeks all Masonic ritual and oaths in regular Masonry would be standardized.

Standardized Masonic work. Now THAT'S funny.

This site was written by Masons so you'll immediately say it's not true. But it's very informative. (Maybe you'd believe it if I told you David Icke wrote it)

home.earthlink.net...

So yeah, I do have to say, I don't believe the Oaths vary AT ALL, and even if they did, individual Masons would not KNOW for sure (as I'm sure they will point out, neither can I know for sure, which is why I have dedicated my life to becoming a Master Speculator, most things in life cannot be KNOWN for sure), because they have only taken and witnessed their own Lodge's rituals and oaths.

Well, once again we're at a point where I have to admit that I don't give a rat's *** whether you believe it or not. I belong to Lodge in Kentucky and Missouri...and after being very active in the Lodge in Louisville Kentucky for a while I had to re-learn a LOT of the ritual when I came back home to Missouri because it's VERY different. Across the Mississippi River from me in Illinois the ritual is very different from Missouri but somewhat similar to Kentucky. The "gist" is the same, the outcome is the same, but the words vary from slightly to greatly. A scan of some Masonic Monitors (available on EBay, Advanced Book Exchange or other internet book-sites will prove that) ...but you're not interested in truth, you've proven that already. [shrug]

....of course the real point here is that fact that Masonic ritual really isn't any of your business to begin with, so it's probably best for us that you don't believe what we say.



[edit on 9-4-2005 by senrak]

[edit on 9-4-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by akilles
Let us suppose that every Lodge wanted to make sure they have the EXACT right ritual, and oaths. I mean, its no skin off the Lodge's nose to correct a few words, right?

So they call the Grand Lodge of that State, and co-ordinate. The Grand Lodge (of each state), in turn, has compared their ritual and oaths with each other, to make sure it is all the same, accomplished by designating one Lodge for the other Grand Lodge's to call.

I presume in a period of 6-8 weeks all Masonic ritual and oaths in regular Masonry would be standardized.

Assuming that you could get thousands of Grand Lodges to agree, you expect 2 million masons, some well over 70 years old, to re-memorize books' worth of rituals that they have known by heart for sometimes well over 50 years, in 6-8 weeks? You're delusional.

So yeah, I do have to say, I don't believe the Oaths vary AT ALL, and even if they did, individual Masons would not KNOW for sure (as I'm sure they will point out, neither can I know for sure, which is why I have dedicated my life to becoming a Master Speculator, most things in life cannot be KNOWN for sure), because they have only taken and witnessed their own Lodge's rituals and oaths.

Actually it's VERY common for masons to attend degrees in other lodges. Once you're a master mason, you can go to any lodge anywhjere in the world and witness any degree being conferred. So yes, masons CAN say that they know for sure that ritual is different in other jurisdictions.

Originally posted by intrepid
Just a matter of getting a response to Sebatwerks challenge. I don't want it being said that I didn't allow driver to answer.

He's not going to reply, Intrepid. You can give it all the time you want, but he's going to ignore this thread because he knows he doesn't have a damn thing to contribute now that he's got his back against a wall.

So how about this, when the Lodge goes to renew its License (and pay its dues, which happens every year, right?) it is sent the official copy of the rituals and oaths.

No one has to re-learn anything, except those who are conducting the ritual, and because the changes are slight, you allow a time period for the changes to be fully made, or maybe even keep a sheet of paper on hand during the ritual

That way, all future members will have taken the same rituals and oaths, saving Freemasonry a SH*tload on printing costs, as only one version has to be copied. Everyone wins, good business sense, no?

Secondly, Freemasonry should develop a standardized book of symbolism, and ritual meaning, that can be used by all lodges, and referenced by Masons and non-Masons alike.

that wouldnt work. by having different lodges and variablity they can not only seperate themsleves, but combine itno different cultures while presenting a unified front.

and if the secret ever leaked, they would have to change it right? now if the secret (for whatever reason it was a secret) leaks, they just claim its one guys way of doing business.

Once again akilles you are amply demonstrating your deep lack of knowledge about the subject on whcih you are son verbose.

Originally posted by akilles
So how about this, when the Lodge goes to renew its License (and pay its dues, which happens every year, right?) it is sent the official copy of the rituals and oaths.

In my jurisdiction it's doubtful if Grand Lodge has this authority - but even if every world Grand Lodge did have this authority there's NO WAY they would all be able to agree on a standard global version.

No one has to re-learn anything, except those who are conducting the ritual, and because the changes are slight, you allow a time period for the changes to be fully made, or maybe even keep a sheet of paper on hand during the ritual

Lots of people are involved in the ritual, the changes would not be slight, and keeping a crib sheet handy would be an anathema. You really don't know much about freemasonry, do you?

That way, all future members will have taken the same rituals and oaths, saving Freemasonry a SH*tload on printing costs, as only one version has to be copied. Everyone wins, good business sense, no?

Freemasonry isn't organised globally. How many times do you have to be told this before it filters through the layers of prejudice?

Secondly, Freemasonry should develop a standardized book of symbolism, and ritual meaning, that can be used by all lodges, and referenced by Masons and non-Masons alike.

Why? It's none of anyone's business except masons.

None of these measures will make a damn bit of difference to the viewpoint of the wilfully prejudiced such as yourself. Why don't you just admit you're a fascist?

Originally posted by SameOldTroll
that wouldnt work. by having different lodges and variablity they can not only seperate themsleves, but combine itno different cultures while presenting a unified front.

You mean like it is right now? Just like akilles it seems that you are labouring under the false impression that freemasonry is managed and controlled globally, where as in reality there are hundreds of regular Grand Lodges who have relations with each other but that's about it.

I have never, in my history here NIT-PICKED a post, but because some Masons does it every time (NEVER answering a post in full, always line by line, a technique that is not needed EVERY time) but there is a first for everything. Please bear with me.

You said it is unlikely your Grand Lodge has the authority to issue the ritual 'proper'. Why?

"every world Grand Lodge"
What is meant by World Grand Lodge, I was not aware there was such a thing, never mind multiple. I'll let it go as a slip.

"there's NO WAY" that a ritual 'proper' could be agreed upon? Where there's a will there's way has always been my belief. Has an effort even been made?

"Lots of people are involved in the ritual"
Don't worry, no one's part will be removed!

"The changes would not be slight"
Every Mason here has described the different rituals as containing the same essence, with differences being superficial, to say the least. Are you suggesting the undertaking to be worthless?

"It's none of anyone's business except masons."
But what of contributing to society, the teachings that Masonry has to offer. Surely, its symbols and the meaning behind the rituals can be shared with all who are interested (in reference to "standardized book of symbolism, and ritual meaning, that can be used by all lodges").

Lastly, you describe assistance in transitioning to standardized ritual as "(some thing) that is cursed or damned."

Am I to take this as your implied meaning (in reference to "keeping a crib sheet handy would be an anathema"), because interestingly, the word derives from latin for "doomed offering", and certainly offerings have no correlation to the working of the rituals of the Brotherhood, correct?

And please, for all people who are open-minded, don't assume you know that someone is just waiting to debase your good name (or your fraternity), you might be surprised. I only push Masonry to see if more could be asked of it.

[edit on 10-4-2005 by akilles]

Originally posted by akilles
I have never, in my history here NIT-PICKED a post, but because some Masons does it every time (NEVER answering a post in full, always line by line, a technique that is not needed EVERY time) but there is a first for everything. Please bear with me.

Oh all right, since you've asked so nicely.

You said it is unlikely your Grand Lodge has the authority to issue the ritual 'proper'. Why?

The copyright of English ritual is held either by Ritual Associations or by Lewis Masonic (a publisher). Technically, changing the ritual at this time would be a breach of copyright.

But GL has limited interest in the ritual due to the development of ritual associations and the move from oral to written tradition in the 19th Century.

More details at www.mqmagazine.co.uk...

"every world Grand Lodge"
What is meant by World Grand Lodge, I was not aware there was such a thing, never mind multiple. I'll let it go as a slip.

Means "every Grand Lodge in the world". You're right - you are nit-picking

"there's NO WAY" that a ritual 'proper' could be agreed upon? Where there's a will there's way has always been my belief. Has an effort even been made?

No, and there won't be because there's no interest in doing it. We're not in the business of changing the way we do things because akilles says so.

Private lodges determine what ritual they work, in England and Wales alone there are over 6000 working about 50 different rituals. No-one will want to move away from their own traditional ritual. And why should they?

"The changes would not be slight"
Every Mason here has described the different rituals as containing the same essence, with differences being superficial, to say the least.

The message is the same, but there can be notable differences in the wording.

"It's none of anyone's business except masons."
But what of contributing to society, the teachings that Masonry has to offer. Surely, its symbols and the meaning behind the rituals can be shared with all who are interested (in reference to "standardized book of symbolism, and ritual meaning, that can be used by all lodges").

You are so desperate to stick your nose in to other people's private business it's amazing. I wonder why the freemasons have been so honoured with your attention? The problem is you can't see the wood for the trees.

All the teachings of masonry can be found in the Bible. I suggest you spend some time reading it - you might learn something.

Lastly, you describe assistance in transitioning to standardized ritual as "(some thing) that is cursed or damned."

Am I to take this as your implied meaning (in reference to "keeping a crib sheet handy would be an anathema"), because interestingly, the word derives from latin for "doomed offering", and certainly offerings have no correlation to the working of the rituals of the Brotherhood, correct?

You really are a twisty turny thing aren't you? Anathema in this context (and normal usage) means "One that is greatly reviled, loathed, or shunned", which is exactly how most lodges who learn the ritual by heart would view a crib sheet. Your childish semantics don't impress me, but at least you took the time to look up a long word that you didn't understand, even if you got the wrong meaning.

And please, for all people who are open-minded, don't assume you know that someone is just waiting to debase your good name (or your fraternity), you might be surprised. I only push Masonry to see if more could be asked of it.

You have a false premise and understanding of freemasonry, and are determined to spead your ignorance amongst as many people as are prepared to listen to your prattle and read your falsehoods. If you were really interested in learning about freemasonry you would follow up on some of the hundreds of answers to questions you have been given to see if they are valid or not. You have a fixed view of freemasonry which is entirely wrong and are determined to build a fiction to justify your viewpoint.

You will never understand freemasonry whilst you refuse to change your paradigm.

Paradigm: A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.

Saves you looking it up.

[edit for typo]

[edit on 10-4-2005 by Trinityman]

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by SameOldTroll
that wouldnt work. by having different lodges and variablity they can not only seperate themsleves, but combine itno different cultures while presenting a unified front.

You mean like it is right now? Just like akilles it seems that you are labouring under the false impression that freemasonry is managed and controlled globally, where as in reality there are hundreds of regular Grand Lodges who have relations with each other but that's about it.

U misunderstood me. from what i can gander the entire point is that the Lodges are not Globally controlled but United by an Ideal, giving them their flexibility while maintaining a solid connection.

Someone else said above me (sebatwerk?) that any MM can witness any degree being conferred in any lodge anywhere. That means they recognize each other. However they also agree that they are differently done, thats the flexible part of it. They are united by their ideals , which im assuming are relatively standardized even if the rituals are different. (cousins instead of brothers).

Does this create a global buddy network. sure it does.

Originally posted by NuTroll
U misunderstood me. from what i can gander the entire point is that the Lodges are not Globally controlled but United by an Ideal, giving them their flexibility while maintaining a solid connection.

Someone else said above me (sebatwerk?) that any MM can witness any degree being conferred in any lodge anywhere. That means they recognize each other. However they also agree that they are differently done, thats the flexible part of it. They are united by their ideals , which im assuming are relatively standardized even if the rituals are different. (cousins instead of brothers).

Does this create a global buddy network. sure it does.

You absolutely got it

Originally posted by akilles
So how about this, when the Lodge goes to renew its License (and pay its dues, which happens every year, right?) it is sent the official copy of the rituals and oaths.

Well, we really don't have a "license" per se...we have a Charter from a Grand Lodge authorizing us to meet and to perform Masonic "Labor" (hold business meetings, initiate candidates).

The biggest problem with this scenario is that many jurisdictions do not ALLOW (and WILL NOT allow) printed rituals. The rituals are learned "mouth to ear" There are still several U.S. States that do this.

See the following page regarding the various U.S. State's Grand Lodge policies concerning "cipher" or "coded" rituals.

bessel.org...

At the opposite end of the spectrum several states, Illinois, Arizona and Michigan have allowed their rituals to be printed in plain English now. Just another example of how different Masonry is from Jurisdiction to Jurisdiction...and in other Countries (Canada, England, Ireland, etc.) it's VASTLY different so "slight" changes wouldn't work.

To give you an idea, here are several "Table Lodge" rituals. Some places don't even hold Table Lodges (a Masonic meeting over dinner, basically) But for those who do, look how different each ritual is:

bessel.org...


No one has to re-learn anything, except those who are conducting the ritual, and because the changes are slight, you allow a time period for the changes to be fully made, or maybe even keep a sheet of paper on hand during the ritual

Oops. I answered most of that above.

That way, all future members will have taken the same rituals and oaths, saving Freemasonry a SH*tload on printing costs, as only one version has to be copied. Everyone wins, good business sense, no?

It makes good business sense, but Masons are notoriously hard-headed (you've probably noticed that by now) Besides, I don't think you've quite grasped how REALLY different some Masonic rituals are. I was looking on my shelf and and I have over 125 DIFFERENT versions of the first three degrees alone and although some vary just a bit...some are quite plain and simple, and some are incredibly elaborate. There is no "happy median" An over all good idea business-wise, but many of us visit other jurisdiction just BECAUSE "they don't do it the way we do it" It's part of the "life" of Masonry. ...part of what makes it unique to any other fraternity. Knights of Pythias, Knights of Columbus, etc. have a standardized ritual (and a "Central" authority) Masonry has neither and really doesn't want either...

Secondly, Freemasonry should develop a standardized book of symbolism, and ritual meaning, that can be used by all lodges, and referenced by Masons and non-Masons alike.

There are TONS of books on Masonic symbolism and have been since Masonry was organized. To standardize the symbolism wouldn't be any more possible than to standardize the ritual. Here's a good example. In MOST of the U.S. Grand Jurisdictions the working tool of a Master Mason is "the Trowel" It's use is explained to the initiate (I'll be glad to post that if you're interested) In England and other places that work an "Emulation" style ritual, the working tools are the "Skirret, Pencil and the Compass" In U.S. Masonry, the only one of these items mentioned as a "working took" is the Compass (which we call "Compasses"....being that tool which draws a circle...and a Compass, of course something that tells directions)

So you see that's just a TINY sample of how different Masonic ritual REALLY is. Even the "significant words" vary from place to place. But we're all still Masons and still Brothers.

Regards

Originally posted by Driver
why are so many of you so addiment to tell us all about Freemasonry?

You asked them about it. Of course they are going to respond when someone asks them directly about it, and of course they are going to want to correct something when they know that its wrong.

I mean, the same could be said for the people that wrote the books about freemasonry and any ex presidents that said anything about it that you mentioned. Why'd they go out of their way to say anything?

Because they are interested in the topic, have a point of view, and want to inform others.

Afterall, this is a discussion forum, we're all trying to discuss these matters, just because someone disagrees with you or anyone else doesn't make them a 'disinformation agent'.

My stance of Freemasonry is that the bulk of the members are in ignorance while the higer parts are involed in the global conspiracy.

This is soemthing a lot of people say. But why re-iterate it without discussing it? Why discuss it with mason's at all if you think that they are more or less unknowingly duped?

senrak
We ARE human after all...

I thought you guys were shapeshifting reptillians? No, dang, my mistake!

akilles
I presume in a period of 6-8 weeks all Masonic ritual and oaths in regular Masonry would be standardized

Why tho? I mean, its not a bad idea, but in the end, for who's benefit is it? For the 'critics' of freemasonry really, right? I mean, the members aren't concerned about it. So why should the various groups bother to do it, to satisfy the critics? And would it really make a difference if their oathes didn't include these things?

I mean, and perhaps the masons can explain, is it understood by an inductee and everyone else that no throats are going to be slit and there's not going to be any strangulation for revealing secrets?

[quiote]Secondly, Freemasonry should develop a standardized book of symbolism, and ritual meaning, that can be used by all lodges, and referenced by Masons and non-Masons alike.
But what is freemasonry? There's no central council. There's not planning comitee. Theres, apparently, a largish group of 'standardized' masons, and another group of 'irregular masons'. THe only difference being is that the 'standardized group' have made some general non-binding agreements between one another, with not enforcing authority to get them to comply with it. So how can 'freemasonry' do anything at such a level? Only by agreement between these 'jurisdictions' no? How is that suposed to be accomplished?

Originally posted by Nygdan
I mean, and perhaps the masons can explain, is it understood by an inductee and everyone else that no throats are going to be slit and there's not going to be any strangulation for revealing secrets?

It's not just the candidates to whom this is explained, but we explain it anyone who asks. It's even in the ritual - it is specifically explained that the penalties are symbolic.

I said more about this earlier in the thread (posted on 8-4-2005 at 10:10 PM Post Number: 1309585).

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by intrepid
Just a matter of getting a response to Sebatwerks challenge. I don't want it being said that I didn't allow driver to answer.

He's not going to reply, Intrepid. You can give it all the time you want, but he's going to ignore this thread because he knows he doesn't have a damn thing to contribute now that he's got his back against a wall.

You were right. Last active today and no answer.

Closed.