Lonnie Zamora UFO Sighting on Unsolved Mysteries

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

If you assume it to be just a balloon, versus a hot air balloon of sorts…..either way I have seen no reporting of additional tire treads marks by a vehicle being left behind in the ravine / gully leading out and headed in the westerly direction of the dynamite shack. Also, if your familiar with western desert brush and loose dirt……to drive vehicle at a speed to not be noticed ….would kick up a trail of dust and dirt. Zamora doesn’t mention that otherwise he would have concluded the balloon was being pulled by a vehicle.

I am unclear on what Zamora's line of sight was and whether the winds would cover any tracks by the time investigations were made at a later date. But I take your point here. I've just noticed that in the report it says the 'object' travelled six miles in three minutes. That's an average of 120mph if Zamora's estimate was correct. That would kick up some dust if it was being towed along. It' would also need to be something special to drive at such a speed in those conditions.

You can also say…….there no mention of it heading inward or upwards.

I’m curious as to your specific reference within the blue book report you have cited that from. The blue book report is made up of different opinions.

No problem, the specific reference can be found in a USAF memo on P7 of the pdf here : documents.theblackvault.com...

There's a lot to unpack from that file. Over 200 pages of it. So if you notice anything interesting let us know.

a reply to: mirageman

Thx

Will do…..

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I said 'totally believe' because...

Back in 50s 60s humans did not have such sophisticated radar systems, and what's most important, as determined attempts to shoot down a UFO. Visitors may be, back in that day and age were more relaxed, encouraging to approach, lure humans to examine closer.

Second,
Why we are not discussing more modern cases like that one? Either there are none or people decided to keep encounters to themselves.

a reply to: mirageman

Your linked source for the documents …..is basically the same as the documents I have, from the National Archives via a different link…..and no water marks like the documents on the Black Vault… but anyway…I digress.

I’m going to agree with Hynek on this one…..basically and overall, Zamora witnessed an extraordinary event…..that cannot be proven to be by a hoax perpetrated by High School students from the local High School nearby or by military, research vehicles known by Hynek at that time. If it were secret craft….he would not in all likelihood have known or been told due to security levels. ‘Need to Know’

While it was Dr. Menzel who entertained with Hynek about High School students possibly having a grudge……….in two letters by Hynek, in the Blue Book file, he disagrees with Dr. Menzel and breaks down the logistics and timing of why a hoax could not have been done. I’ll agree with his analysis on this too.

Notice I mentioned Hynek’s and Menzel’s talk of a hoax by “High School” students……not “College Students”.

I think the college students hoax talk (letter) by Colgate is a red herring. Perhaps Colgate got wind of the Hynek letter to Menzel…..and contrived to concoct a story using College Students instead. Also, Colgate was not President until September 1964. The school year ran from September 1963 to June of 1964 and the President at that time was E.J. Workman. The Socorro incident happened in April of 1964 during Workman’s Presidency ………

At best Colgate got heresy information…..and for whatever reasons injected college students as perpetrators of a hoax.

Imo…..the same logistical and timing ….reasoning that Hynek analyzed to dismiss the hoax being done by high school students……..applies to the logistical and timing problems the college students would have also faced.

The hoax theory falls apart due to not having the logistics and timing of setup, execution, and dismantling in order to pull it off.


Also……..basic questions……what could the motive be to hoax Zamora?….who could have had a grudge to go this far? Or did students out of the blue decided to hoax Zamora on a humorous lark.

Why put so much into a hoax ….if it were a hoax?

It makes more sense that it would have been students from the nearby high school than students from a much farther away college ….anyway.

Either high school students or college students would have an idea of consequences should they get caught…..why risk their futures?

I believe Hynek over Colgate…..(however, I don’t believe in a Swamp Gas UFO 😆)

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Good stuff Ophi. I hadn't read all 200+ pages of the file. So the hoax theory was being banded around at the time? Even if there wasn't the same level of detail as came to light in 2009?

That backs up what another poster said earlier in the thread too.

I believe Hynek over Colgate…..(however, I don’t believe in a Swamp Gas UFO 😆)

What about dusty desert balloons?

a reply to: Guyfriday

....Though I swear I heard this HOAX angle before '09.

Looks like you were right about that (thanks to Ophi for finding it).The hoax theory was also completely dismissed at the time by Hynek.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Good stuff Ophi. I hadn't read all 200+ pages of the file. So the hoax theory was being banded around at the time? Even if there wasn't the same level of detail as came to light in 2009?

That backs up what another poster said earlier in the thread too.

I believe Hynek over Colgate…..(however, I don’t believe in a Swamp Gas UFO 😆)

What about dusty desert balloons?

I've just noticed that in the report it says the 'object' travelled six miles in three minutes. That's an average of 120mph if Zamora's estimate was correct. That would kick up some dust if it was being towed along. It' would also need to be something special to drive at such a speed in those conditions.

Of course, by now….you and i know that this couldn’t have happened ……for obvious reasons 😂



The origin of the craft/object is a still a mystery……..

However……I did find a “What If” …...some of these test probes for space programs had active engines when testing. The particular one below has four legs…car sized….and from a humans excited viewing angle with adrenaline rushing i.e. Zamora looking down into an uneven ravine/gully….…it looks to have an egg shape profile.

This craft object is seen slung from a balloon in this particular test….


Perhaps a super secret test….as Hynek contemplated


Because…..my dear Dr. Hynek….you didn’t have all full clearance access to space probe testing SAP’s and a ‘Need to Know’ ….imo.

Wild stuff in shapes and configuration’s were being tested….by different folks for different reasons.

Some FYI….Holloman AFB had a Balloon Unit……at a minimum the unit would have had at least one Meteorologist on the team for testing…..


Ah ….who knows……except for Zamora did witnessed a strange event with a strange craft object……..and it isn’t a proven HOAX…logistics do not support it…...imo

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a reply to: mirageman

Pardonne-Moi …..I left out a some elements….😆


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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

This craft object is seen slung from a balloon in this particular test….

It would appear to be the Mars Voyager Aeroshell undergoing testing. Wiki says

....NASA's Planetary Entry Parachute Program (PEPP) aeroshell, tested in 1966, was created to test parachutes for the Voyager Mars landing program. To simulate the thin Martian atmosphere, the parachute needed to be used at an altitude more than 160,000 feet (49,000 m) above the Earth. A balloon launched from Roswell, New Mexico was used to initially lift the aeroshell. The balloon then drifted west to the White Sands Missile Range, where the vehicle was dropped and the engines beneath the vehicle boosted it to the required altitude, where the parachute was deployed...

Balloons? Roswell? 1966?

A couple of years after the Socorro incident. I haven't checked. But maybe prototypes were being built and tested before that?

a reply to: mirageman

The aeroshell is a good try….but not exactly the shape as in the vidclip I posted… (which appears to have a top shell and bottom shell type configuration, with four legs)…

Perhaps your right about……”maybe prototypes were being built and tested before that?” ….yes, maybe before 1966…………but Super Secret back then 😉

I’m ok with the craft object still being a mystery…..whether man-made or non-man-made…………since in my mind …..it wasn’t a HOAX 😊

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IMO, overall, this event has a center of gravity( unlike a distorted event like Bentwaters with entrails of s___ all over it)

What surprises me is that folks don’t dwell on the fact that the “ufo,” as described by Zamora, has no ET aspects to it at all.

The craft had no extraordinary capabilities. Nor the beings any ET attributes ascribed to them. Merely a round strange, looking, very slow engine-fired craft with two men in overalls near it before it took off.

Though an unfamiliar flying vehicle, I think the evidence shows it was a terrestrial craft that Zamora witnessed.

Maybe some have said some industry or government-connected test craft. I know another theory I can’t find about some other industrial or government group behind this.

I wonder what makes this ufo story so acceptable to the usually debunking mainstream, notwithstanding the very unreliable Phillip Class's usual BS.

Maybe it's the simplicity.

Perhaps if Zamora did report extraordinary events surrounding this, which he didn’t, would they have been less accepting and totally trusted the ordinary guy, seemingly honest, Zamora?

a reply to: peaceinoutz

Maybe it's the simplicity.

👍🏼🍺

If your ever in the Socorro NM neck of the woods (desert)……stop by




Anyone who goes…..I ask that you are mindful of the area and not remove markers or stones you may see and find. This area should be respected with the courtesies of a historical landmark……imo.

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The one thing everyone is forgetting is that the two 'beings' ran to the craft and took off, upon realizing that Zamora spotted them.
If this was anything terrestrial, then why wouldn't they simply speak to Zamora?
Doesn't make any sense.

originally posted by: RonnieJersey
The one thing everyone is forgetting is that the two 'beings' ran to the craft and took off, upon realizing that Zamora spotted them.
If this was anything terrestrial, then why wouldn't they simply speak to Zamora?
Doesn't make any sense.

Because :

1) If students were carrying out a hoax on Zamora then of course they wouldn't speak to him.

2) If this was a secret military test of some sort, then they wouldn't casually hang around for local law enforcement and brief them. A UFO story provides a good cover story.

3) If this was a NASA project gone astray, no priority would be given to speaking to a police officer that happened to be in the area or even informing the press. The Space Race with the Soviets was particularly sensitive at that time. The first satellite, animal, man and woman in space were all from the Soviet Bloc. America was losing the Space Race at the time. Only those with a real need to know would know.

a reply to: mirageman
That's a big If.

a reply to: mirageman

Here’s an eye opener…..that could use some following up…..but I don’t know the means to look into it…..perhaps someone else…..

In a rough draft letter (with corrections) to someone who is unnamed in probably the first page of the letter missing…..Hynek writes about a few things, including the Zamora hoax contention of Dr. Menzel and about a film titled Phenomena 7.7 about the Socorro incident….which really didn’t see the light of day for the National audience as it was intended to be released….but had problems.

Anyway I came across this……mentioning a purported positive result of a radiation test


And then when Hynek signs off on the letter…..he follows it with a quib that mentions radiation and it possibly tied to an infection received from thorns of a charred bush…(Hynek does have a sense of humor)


Could they have tested samples from the wrong area…..or was someone lax in retrieving good enough samples to test…..or does the government testing knows that it is radiation …and of course MUM about it as I would suspect….

Trying to follow up on this may be entering a maze.

But imagine if true!

A propulsion system that leaves radioactive residue…….in the 1960’s?

Is it “Secretly Ours?”….when you think of propulsion systems for space probe craft and the such.

Or is it “Secretly Theirs?”……

Perhaps TSgt Moody has a report of sample analysis somewhere…….a document buried.


By the way……if radiation was found……I would think it helps to negate the landing as a HOAX Prank…


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originally posted by: RonnieJersey
The one thing everyone is forgetting is that the two 'beings' ran to the craft and took off, upon realizing that Zamora spotted them.
If this was anything terrestrial, then why wouldn't they simply speak to Zamora?
Doesn't make any sense.

Because they were doing something surreptitious or testing something they didn’t want to get out.

One can presume the beings Zamora saw were like many alien contact instances where they flee any human contact. Of course, on the other hand, abductions and intrusions aren’t always like that, so we can’t generalize how these beings have acted.

In some of the European contact events, it is recorded they have pointed strange implements to get the human away from them. Or even some kind of power to incapacitate the human.

All I’m saying is the event had no extraordinary descriptions of the beings or the craft, so evidentiarily it's not an ET event. It is only a person in contact with an unknown craft of no unusual traits but its strangeness or unfamiliar appearance.

Maybe it is an ET contact event, but it’s not demonstrated by what Zamora told us.

Now if he said they were 4 feet big-headed and bug-eyed, and the craft zoomed off into the sunset at an enormous speed, then we have a typical ET descriptive event.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Stanton Friedman was doing research on nuclear propulsion in the 1960s-70s. So, either this event gave McDonnell Douglas (which would have been McDonnell Aircraft and/or Douglas Aircraft Company at the time) the idea of using a radiation source as a driver for lift.

Both companies had contracts with NASA and had contracts building missile defense systems as well as ICBMs, before merging in 1967.

Given that Staton Friedman was researching UFOs publicly as early as 1970, it is possible that that the Zamora events could have drove the ideas of using this technology. Though it is possible that the craft seen by Zamora was only possible for the public to know about because the research by government scientists was already under way.

Moving forward………will the real Marking(s) please stand up?

Of all the depictions of the red marking(s) shown on the www and hard copy material…..these 3 depictions are most widely known……


Hynek actually gives a second description…..he gives it in an audio interview at the tail end of MM’s posted Socorro multi-interviews on YouTube on page 3 this thread. If you listen closely…..Hynek states at about 25:28….

”he described it to me as an inverted V…with a sort of a bar across it…after he described it, and drew it….and the thing I was reminded of ….is a typical brand…a cattle brand”……

Notice Hynek gives only two elements….an inverted V (singular), a sort of Bar (singular)….if I drew that out…in my mind ….it would look like this….kind of “A”ish….


Regardless of my depiction….all these depictions could be the result of the Air Force not wanting to reveal the actual marking although Hynek says there was no influence to do so.

I have a hunch as to where the true depiction of the marking(s) may still be as a matter of an official record…..but it’s going to take a FOIA to see if it’s there…..and that is a FOIA covering WPAFB and the FAA during the period of letters being exchanged between the two parties.

Here is the letter from WPAFB to request an analysis of the marking(s) to the FAA. Apparently the marking(s) was sent as an attachment to the request letter….


Here is the response letter from the FAA, to the request of WPAFB……



Who is to say that the FAA won’t have a copy(s) of the true markings attachment(s) sent by WPAFB in their official archived records???

It’s worth a try if someone who knows the FOIA process and has the time to submit a FAA records FOIA request to include all letter correspondence and include all attachments from the WPAFB letter of Col. Eric T. de Jonckheere date 27 May 1964 …referencing also Socorro…to the FAA letter from Jay H. Moody date of June 2 1964.

Again… whoever has FOIA experience ….how about giving it a try…for the ATS’ers 😉

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Hey Ophi.

If C Was the "false" design, it was also the one sketched by Zamora when he was interviewed



And Capt. Holder of the army drew it on his report too


P77 - 81 of the Blue Book Files I linked earlier.

I don't think this is conclusive. But any thoughts yourself?