Zelensky Pushes Europe to Cross Another Red Line

So let's try and forget which side we are on here, and discuss this new development. the UK will begin training Ukrainian fighter pilots to use thier jet fighters in the future. When do we hit the threshold where Putin capitulates and leaves Ukraine, 1 more year? 2 years? Is that even achievable anymore?

So is there any timetable as to when this might actually force Russia to actually leave Ukraine? Hell just enough to have them sit down and start negotiations?

We got so many experts on here, so what's the general timetable now as we approach year 2?

Many were cocksure that we had to fight Putin in Ukraine or we would have to fight him down the block from #10 Downing Street, thankfully those
fears seem to have been averted. For now

Have we gotten closer or farther away from peace in Ukraine? that is still the goal, right?

It sounds like we are settling into a nice routine of forever war, just LIKE the MIC loves. I guess it's fair the Republicans had their golden goose with Iraq and Afghanistan which made the Bushes, Cheneys, and any RINOs with Haliburton stock FILTHY rich. Now it's the Bidens, the RINOS again, and the connected Democrats, and obviously a good portion of UK and the EU's politicians as well.

Now everybody can eat "wings for freedom" for the Super Bowl and remember for just pennies a day, only you make make sure a Ukrainian pilot is never without an F-16 or F-35 to fly.




www.newsweek.com...

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has arrived in Brussels for a visit widely expected to focus on pleas for fighter jets following his trip to the U.K. and France.

During a surprise visit to London on Wednesday, Zelensky told Britain's politicians that Ukraine was petitioning for "wings for freedom."

"I appeal to you and the world with simple and yet most important words: combat aircraft for Ukraine, wings for freedom," he said in an address in the capital. "Two years ago, I left parliament thanking you for the delicious English tea. Today I will leave parliament today thanking all of you in advance for powerful English planes."

During the visit, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said the U.K.'s training program for Ukrainian military personnel would be expanded to include fighter jet pilots for the first time.


The program will "ensure pilots are able to fly sophisticated NATO-standard fighter jets in the future," Downing Street said. The U.K., along with the U.S., has previously refused to provide Ukraine with the Western F-16, F-35 and Typhoon fighter jets that were considered by many analysts to be a "red line" for Ukraine's international supporters.

A Downing Street spokesperson said last month the "extremely sophisticated" fighter jets "take months to learn how to fly," and it was therefore "not practical" to commit those jets to Kyiv. The U.K. doesn't fly the F-16 jets Ukraine has previously mentioned, but does have F-35 and Typhoon aircraft.

Later on Wednesday, Sunak said "nothing was off the table," and that advanced fighter jets were "part of the conversation."

Russia's London embassy said Moscow "will know how to respond to any unfriendly actions by the British side," warning that providing fighter jets would be an escalation "on the United Kingdom's hands."

Arriving in Paris on Wednesday evening to meet French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, Zelensky said the two European nations have the opportunity to be "game changers."

Macron told the Ukrainian leader that Russia "cannot and must not win this war," adding: "As long as Russia continues to attack, we will continue to adapt and moderate the necessary military support to preserve Ukraine and its future."

On Thursday, European Parliament President Roberta Metsola told Zelensky that the union's member states "must consider quickly as the next step providing long-range systems and the jets that you need to protect your liberty," according to the Evening Standard.

a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

When will Bidens Ukraine policy start hurting Americans in some way?

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

When will Bidens Ukraine policy start hurting Americans in some way?

Would it matter?
Nobody seems to care how Biden's Afghan withdrawal policy hurt Americans.

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

You have no semi-informed guess as to how long that might take to achieve optimal success.

a reply to: putnam6

The thing that gets me the most is, how is that the Russians have not done any attempts to Zelensky's life yet, are the Russians regarding Zelensky as anything none important or Zelensky spend his time hidden away in a nice tropical paradise Island away from the real war lines, thanks to the generosity of the American tax payer.

a reply to: putnam6
"When do we hit the threshold where Putin capitulates and leaves Ukraine, 1 more year? 2 years? Is that even achievable anymore? "

I was sayng in the war thread that my big worry is that Putin will not capitulate-he has set the stage for such already.
The Russian narrative of the whole war is such that it is framed as an "existensial threat" to Russia,and that threat is from NATO not just Ukraine.
If it looks like its game over-
What would Putin do to prevent that,once the bulk of his army and its equipment have been annihilted on the battlefield,and the economy is destroyed?

What does Putin do when his job,life and legacy are at threat because of the above?
Is he the type of man to hold up his hands and say "oh well I tried my best but NATO has won fair and square."
or
Does he,in a fit of fury,attempt to unleash nuclear hell on all of his percieved enemies-possibly to the extent that his mistakes are forgotten because there is no one left alive to remember..

Putin believes Russia have "never lost a war."
Debatable,but he believes it.

Would that mans ego allow him to be the first leader who lost a war for Russia?
I think not.
Sorry to sound like such a doomer.

I am no expert on the matter BTW so lets hope I am wrong.

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

You have no semi-informed guess as to how long that might take to achieve optimal success.

I'll stick with my initial prediction...Ukraine will lose.

As to how long it will take?
That depends on when the gravy train finally runs out for Biden's donors and political cronies.

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: putnam6

The thing that gets me the most is, how is that the Russians have not done any attempts to Zelensky's life yet, are the Russians regarding Zelensky as anything none important or Zelensky spend his time hidden away in a nice tropical paradise Island away from the real war lines, thanks to the generosity of the American tax payer.

Makes it almost seem like Putin wants continuous war too.

Perhaps he has some investments in defense sector stocks as well, and/or he just wants to get real-world training and purge the negative and inept elements of his military

a reply to: putnam6


I believe it, just like the corrupted government in our nation that profit from wars thanks to the benefactors in the war industry.

Putin know where to find the money, the profiteers of wars are color blind and have alliance to any country.

originally posted by: Silcone Synapse
a reply to: putnam6
"When do we hit the threshold where Putin capitulates and leaves Ukraine, 1 more year? 2 years? Is that even achievable anymore? "

I was sayng in the war thread that my big worry is that Putin will not capitulate-he has set the stage for such already.
The Russian narrative of the whole war is such that it is framed as an "existensial threat" to Russia,and that threat is from NATO not just Ukraine.
If it looks like its game over-
What would Putin do to prevent that,once the bulk of his army and its equipment have been annihilted on the battlefield,and the economy is destroyed?

What does Putin do when his job,life and legacy are at threat because of the above?
Is he the type of man to hold up his hands and say "oh well I tried my best but NATO has won fair and square."
or
Does he,in a fit of fury,attempt to unleash nuclear hell on all of his percieved enemies-possibly to the extent that his mistakes are forgotten because there is no one left alive to remember..

Putin believes Russia have "never lost a war."
Debatable,but he believes it.

Would that mans ego allow him to be the first leader who lost a war for Russia?
I think not.
Sorry to sound like such a doomer.

I am no expert on the matter BTW so lets hope I am wrong.

I'm no expert either, , but it would seem the West isn't going to stop either, especially if they listen to CSIS

www.csis.org...

What is essential is that aid has continued at a high level, as evidenced in the recent European and U.S. aid packages. This has become a long war of attrition that requires military support across the board―weapons and munitions of all kinds as well as mundane elements like trucks, medical supplies, and spare parts. Ukraine can win the war without tanks if this level of overall support continues. If it gets tanks, but support is cut substantially, Ukraine will lose because its forces will gradually run out of munitions, mobility, and weapons.

The continuing high level of support is significant because skepticism about aid to Ukraine is increasing not just in the United States but across Europe. Everywhere a peace party is rising in strength, arguing that the war will be long, casualties and destruction will be great, and it is time to end the “forever war” through negotiations. Negotiations would inevitably result in some sort of in-place ceasefire, which would solidify Russia’s occupation. The UDCG meeting’s outcome reflects a rejection of that approach.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

When will Bidens Ukraine policy start hurting Americans in some way?

The amount sent to Ukraine is equivalent to the shortfall in social security.

The more that countries transfer their resources- both military and financial-the more BRICs grows and gains power on the world stage.

I don't know if Putin is a willing participant in bring the western way of life to an end or not, but it sure looks like a global reset is in full swing.

originally posted by: putnam6
So let's try and forget which side we are on here, and discuss this new development.

Okay...

When do we hit the threshold where Putin capitulates and leaves Ukraine, 1 more year? 2 years? Is that even achievable anymore?

You already lost me...

You can't forget what side you are on...

Russia will never capitulate to the west and Ukraine ever again. You are naive if you think that's how it will end. Russia tried to negotiate a peace agreement for 8 years only to learn that peace agreement was just a ploy so NATO could arm their cardboard nazi army in Ukraine to the teeth.

Russia has no one left to negotiate with so is left with determining the outcome on it's own. Which will inevitably be the removal of the Zelenskyy regime. Of course Zelenskyy and his inner circle will be flown to Miami long before that happens.

For the record acknowledge how this war started and how it will inevitably end is not pro-Russian. It's pro-reality.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: putnam6

I'm pretty sure Biden said we'll keep shoveling billions to Ukraine..."as long as it takes".

When will Bidens Ukraine policy start hurting Americans in some way?

It could take a while.

According to the most recent DOD statements, the US has committed right at 25 Billion dollars to Ukraine in the two years of the Biden Administration ;

www.defense.gov...

Meanwhile, the GDP of the US is right at 25 Trillion dollars per year, or 1000 times bigger:

en.wikipedia.org...

That’s about 0.05% of the GDP per year, on average.

a reply to: putnam6

I think it’s hard to estimate until we see what happens in the spring.

Many say Russia was holding back resources, either fighting with gloves on or a miscalculation of Ukrainian resistance. But Spring may be the time when they give one of their biggest pushes.

Ukraine either falls or this really turns into a prolonged war. That said, I can’t see it lasting more than two more years. With the reported casualty rates on both sides, at some point Ukraine will simply run out of men. And unless people offer up theirs, Russia wins out of sheer population difference.

These are all guesses on my part as I’m in no way an expert on this topic.

a reply to: putnam6

I will ask the question again, knowing that Russia is their neighbor and a "threat" to Ukraine for years prior to this, why has Ukraine not previously upped their defense spending budget to reflect their need to defend their country from Russian aggression. Why are they trying to compel other countries into funding their defense budget?

a reply to: marg6043

Because you are watching a show, there are double triple even quadruple agents. All this is planned to a tee.

originally posted by: Antimony
a reply to: putnam6

I will ask the question again, knowing that Russia is their neighbor and a "threat" to Ukraine for years prior to this, why has Ukraine not previously upped their defense spending budget to reflect their need to defend their country from Russian aggression. Why are they trying to compel other countries into funding their defense budget?

They did. Ukraine more or less doubled it's defence spending after the Russian invasion of Crimea.

However Russia is a much bigger country with bigger military so Ukraine is asking for (not compelling) aid against Putin's land grab.

originally posted by: putnam6

So let's try and forget which side we are on here

Ummm...which sides might they be...?

The Biden administrations...?

The MIC...?


I'm not invested in either...

As for making predictions...I'll leave that to you psychics...

It takes 5 years to train pilots

Ukraine can’t bank on British jets: it takes the RAF five years to train pilots
Some British forces are yet to complete their training after nine years

YouSir