Germany approves the delivery of Leopard 2 tanks

I just wanted to chime in to act like I'm passionate about something, fuss about one side or the other being right or wrong.

I think the end would be simple. Just give Russia the eastern Russian speaking regions that dont want to be a part of Ukraine. They're the ones that were getting "genocided" by the "nazis" since 2014 that prompted this whole thing right?

I don't think they'd be easily governed by Ukraine if it managed to take those territories with all of those cutting edge western tanks.

As for the south of the country, well.. Crimea wants to be Russian, so let them have that. Mariupol is a wasteland like most of the cities that were fought over, so I don't know, they'll have to work it out on paper depending on the make up of the local populations.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: nugget1

You're basically saying both parties are guilty, but instead of condemning both of them you will assign the most blame to the one who bears the most guilt?

I think I kind of did condemn both. I was honest and pointed out the wests position.

I think the west is taking advantage of the situation to weaken Russia. But I think I disagree with many as to who’s “fault” this is.

I was responding to your estimation as to whom had the dirtiest hands.

That's why we have wars in the first place. As Americans we're supposed to hate on Russia, because that's what the talking heads are telling us to do.

I’ve been critical of my own countries foreign policy, hell, I even did it here.

But I can do that while also saying Russia is the main belligerent. They are after all taking part in a conquest for more land in another country. They’re also proving not to to be concerned about how many people it takes. And many are not volunteers. So it’s hard IMO to make the case they’re doing this in the best interest of anyone.

I kind of felt the same way.......every time the US invaded another country or set up proxy wars. It's the US, under the present administration, that absolutely refuses to allow any negotiations or peace talks to happen.

People act like this is a war between Russia and Ukraine; it's not. It's about who's the biggest bully on the world domination scene.

Putin and Zelensky have a beef; the US has an agenda, and it doesn't matter how many die worldwide as long as politicians are raking in the profits by getting involved in this war.

a reply to: nugget1

People act like this is a war between Russia and Ukraine; it's not. It's about who's the biggest bully on the world domination scene. Putin and Zelensky have a beef; the US has an agenda, and it doesn't matter how many die worldwide as long as politicians are raking in the profits by getting involved in this war.

I don’t like how we’re handling it. But I don’t see how we’re the biggest bully here.

Russia got Crimea and the whole world didn’t lift a finger. They could have taken their ball and gone home, but they wanted more.

Russia is going to throw hundreds of thousands into the meat grinder just because they want that sliver in the east. Ukraine is defending their sovereignty, shocker. That’s history 101, a country with occupiers fights back. Yea, we’re supplying them, and in their eyes were probably not holding our end of the Budapest memorandum enough.

It isn’t new that Russia shows aggression to their neighbors either, just ask Georgia.

And at the end of the day, US foreign policy is often sh**. But it should be telling when all of Europe would rather be associated with the country who has protected world trade since WWII as opposed to a nation they used to be a part of.

Where are Russian allies? If the US is so bad, why aren’t people helping Russia other than Iran, North Korea and Belarus? Former USSR countries are giving 1-5% of their GDP and huge parts of their military assets to help Ukraine.

I’m not an Eastern European, I don’t know all the nuances of living in that part of the world. But I can recognize an absolute repulsion of a single entity, and that appears to be Russia.

We could dig back on US foreign policy, but it pales in comparison to the violation of human rights of one’s own citizens that the USSR had.

Sure there’s an argument to be made that Russia is a different country, and that holds to a certain degree. But they seem to use similar tactics.

But sure, Ukraine is the bully for not forfeiting land and anyone who helps them are the literal killers in this war.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: pteridine

If you want my honest opinion, I think the fact they’re publicly announcing sending these tanks means that they’ve already been training them for a while now.

Probably. I believe 60,000 Ukranian troops are in NATO countries undergoing a variety of training. I am in Oklahoma and the local news reported 2-3 weeks ago about Ukranian Troops at Ft. Sill learning the Patriot Missile system.

On a side note, alot of news is saying it will take a while to set up facilities to maintain the Abrams tanks; BUT those facilities probably already exist in Germany. While the US hasn't home based armor in Germany since 2013, they do still rotate armored brigades through every 6 mths. I would imagine maintenance, supply system and ammo is already there. Or near enough.

a reply to: SrWingCommander

I live near Salisbury Plain and Ukrainians have been training here for a while now.

The fact is, you don’t just send tanks to some country without someone trained to use them, nor can you just read a book and expect a crew to operate one without breaking something either. So yeah groups of people are being trained someplace by people who know the systems well, instructors..

Tanks need support too. Wonder what other goodies Uke is getting!

Fun times ahead. Stock up while you can.

a reply to: SrWingCommander

It looks like the world is heading for the final conflict. When the Americans decided to pull a coup in Ukraine and install a puppet regime. There was only one way this was heading, the only people that actually asked the people of Donbas or Crimea what they wanted were the Russians, and they voted. Are we going to get a vote or referendum on whether this mess continues, or even do an honest check on what the people in the areas of the conflict actually want? no, they are going to war whether we the people want one or not. So how does that work? when a rogue foreign policy dictated by Pharmaceutical companies and the likes of Raytheon decides to drag the most unwilling into a conflict that will kill off mostly the unwilling.I think a gross miscalculation has occurred, which will see most of Western Europe collapse and end up as de facto members of the Russian Federation. This sad state of affairs has occurred simply because there are no popular governments doing what governments are supposed to do, and thus has left a power vacuum, that can't be filled by words and PR spin. We simply have no real government, the consequences will become obvious.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Russia is going to throw hundreds of thousands into the meat grinder just because they want that sliver in the east.

Biden is dragging the whole world into this fight and throwing everybody on the planet under the bus. Biden has stopped every single country that has gotten Russia to agree to peace talks. American people are suffering while our tax dollars all go to support yet another proxy war, but this is a lot different than all the others wars we've created. It's not just the future of our children and grandchildren that are on the line; it's their very lives.

All the macho talk and bravado in the world won't mean jack squat when the nukes start flying.

I will never, ever understand such cavalier attitudes to choosing sides and supporting war-especially world war.

a reply to: nugget1

Yea, Biden has clearly had a hard on for Ukraine and there has even been nepotism in the mix.

But the political alternative would have come with the same result. Lest us forget his predecessor was the first to provide lethal aid and said he wasn’t doing enough.

I think we’re spending too much especially with the absence of comparable spending from allies. But there simply isn’t a political debate on this one, in terms of what each platform would have done. Many are just playing contrarian, but it’s beyond me people are willing to do it to the extent of rooting for the eastern sphere of influence.

Think of the first born son of communism… then envision rooting for them against America. I just don’t get it.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I agree with you on most points, (and I really enjoy your thought-filled posts) yet not on rooting for either side in any war we've had in my lifetime.

As far as communism, it sure looks to me like we should worry more about Biden bringing communism to America ala China than giving all of our resources Ukraine. That's a far bigger threat, IMHO, and as long as everybody focuses on Russia and Ukraine nobody will see what's coming.

We've been creeping closer to an athortarian regime since the Patriot Act and it's been picking up speed ever since covid.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I agree with you on most points, (and I really enjoy your thought-filled posts) yet not on rooting for either side in any war we've had in my lifetime.

As far as communism, it sure looks to me like we should worry more about Biden bringing communism to America ala China than giving all of our resources Ukraine. That's a far bigger threat, IMHO, and as long as everybody focuses on Russia and Ukraine nobody will see what's coming.

We've been creeping closer to an athortarian regime since the Patriot Act and it's been picking up speed ever since covid.

a reply to: nugget1



I agree on China. I also agree we’re spending too much with Ukraine and flirting with a level of involvement that makes us direct participants.

That said, this weakens China too. While I wouldn’t say Russia is a true ally of theirs, we’ve all wondered if they’d team up if a conflict with the west arose. Now we see China is more interested with trading with the west than weakening us.

China has also struggled recently since their handling of COVID forced many multinational corporations hands in diversifying their sourcing or outright changing it.

Right now might be one of the most worrisome, dangerous, and defining times in my life. And a lot of tragedy has already happened. We could lose ourselves with infighting, we could capitulate to foreign threads, or we could decide to use the opportunities we have (not so much Ukraine, but differing our trade reliance’s on the east).

I’ve disagreed with almost everything in the current admin. I disagreed with a lot from the previous one. But I’m actually surprised to the progress I’ve seen from both on distancing us from China on chips (which runs the world), and a bolstering of western countries trading amongst ourselves or friendlies.

a reply to: nugget1

I’m actually surprised to the progress I’ve seen from both on distancing us from China on chips (which runs the world), and a bolstering of western countries trading amongst ourselves or friendlies.

As close as Joe has been to China for decades I have to wonder what China gets in return for pretending Joe's tough stance has them under control.

The US throw military might around in place of strategy while China uses brains to play the long game. They're still beefing up their military stockpile while the western world is depleting theirs.

There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that China wants to rule the world, and from what I see they're favored to win the long game. As more evidence surfaces, it appears Joe has been helping them in their quest for a very long time.

a reply to: DerBeobachter

Stirring post there mate, I concur that the traitorous bastards SHOULD NOT feel 'safe' if they are pushing us into another unnecessary war. They should live with the consequences of their decisions, understanding the pain they are causing to others through their nefarious conduct. God is on our side - and by 'our side', I mean the side of the 99%, those who are not traitorous, sold-out bastards sucking the teat of the WEF syndicate corporatocracy.