A skeptic asks "Why do you believe aliens have been to Earth?"

The closest visible star other than our Sun, Alpha Centauri, is 4.4 light years distant. That means that it takes 4.4 years for the light from the NEAREST star to get here. This in turn means that the nearest star (other than our Sun) is about 26 trillion miles away. So if a space vehicle were to travel at the speed of light than it would still be a 4 year journey! And thats from our closest neighboring star!

Lets say theres an alien race that can fold space!

Would an alien race that traveled 4 years to get hear, or that had the tech to fold space, be inclined to monitor our actions and remain pat all the while knowing that their presence is being manipulated by the governments of the race, (us) in which they have traveled great distances to see, meet, take over, what have you.

To me thats the equivalent of traveling 4 times around the earth to peek inside someones house through the window, without ever ringing the doorbell. Would you do that. Would a race with that type of tech, do that, and then allow there presence to be HIDDEN!

Thats more of a stretch to me than anything.

Lets remeber we are farmers and gatherers originally and the only reason we moved across this planet was due to lack of space, ie.... the westward movement of early pionneers, or climate changes, ie nomadic journeys from alaska to the south americas during winter seasons. The universe unlike this planet is infinite and there is no need to find a planet already inhabited when you have the ability to fold space, if thats the case, to find the resources an alien race may need or want.

They apperently are not here for diplomatic reasons, as far as you or I can tell. So what can a race that can travel unimaginable distances want? AND PEOPLE, LETS PUT THIS INTO PERSPECTIVE!

All the light that we see in the night sky that doesn't originate in our solar system is old. The nearest galaxy to us, the Andromeda galaxy, is just under three million light years away. That’s how old its picture is when we see a photograph of it.

3 MILLION LIGHT YEARS!!!! Nearest galaxy!

3 million years for light, the fastest thing we know of to get here!!!
"And we think a 100 yr old person is old."

A race that has the ability to fold space to circumvent that distance, in my humble opinion, isnt gonna do anything but make a grand appearence!!

Wouldnt we!!!!!




[edit on 8-4-2005 by CrossBone]

IMO, I think we are being visited by aliens from another planet. But I also keep my mind open to the idea that these visitors could possibly be from another time. This would be no less fantastic. But like in the previous post, it is hard to imagine how they travel.

But, I cannot go to a museum and find an alien spacecraft, or see alien bones, or see alien artifacts. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't aliens visiting us, but it does mean that it cannot be stated as fact, only possibility, however strong or weak.

The reason is because the truth is being withheld by the government. And there is also EVIDENCE of the coverup. All you have to do is go over some of the government documents released under the FOIA. If this were a trial put in front of a jury, where this evidence was presented, the jury would surely rule in favor of it.

Not to add to your list of homework, but another good sight for military witnesses to both sightings and the coverup can be found at the Disclosure Project.

[edit on 8/4/05 by Hal9000]

I'd also like to make special mention of Gazrok's first post with all the pics. With the exception of the 1929 pic (which I believe is too blurry to consider) these are very interesting, indeed. The context of those paintings does not readily lend itself to including those UFO-like objects, and so the artists must have had a very good reason for including them. (i.e. that is what they saw in the sky, alien craft or not) I find the 1942 pic particularly interesting. It is almost certainly a legitimate photo, and defies any simple explanation. When I get a chance, probably not for a few weeks, due to university finals, I plan to read a bunch of stuff about ufology; hopefully I can get some of the materials suggested.

All one can do is ask that you look at the evidence, and decide for yourself. As for the 1929 pic, there are plenty of them prior to 1947 when UFOs came to the public eye. There are FAR better such pics, but I merely included that one as an example. I like using such old pics for one simple reason, there were fewer means of "faking" photos back then, so they hold up much better to scrutiny than modern photos. The 1942 pic is of course from the front page of the LA Times. Since you're planning on reading, here's some suggestions..

Anything by Stan Friedmann (one of the most respected UFOlogists in the field, he's a PHD, worked on government nuclear programs, and is a respected physicist).

Anything by Ed Ruppelt (a former head of Bluebook)

Anything by Hyneck (a former Bluebook consultant)

Anything by Timothy Good (another respected researcher)

Anything by Kevin Randle (another respected researcher)

The Day After Roswell, by Major Phillip Corso (a good read by an impeccable source, though he does inflate his ego a bit)

Visit www.majesticdocuments.com...

For a skeptical point of view (always good to help separate the wheat from the chaff)...

Anything by Phillip J. Klass

Anything by Jaques Vallee (sp?)

Anything by Kal Korpff

Be sure to look at things from BOTH angles though, as each is of course in essence a persuasive essay to put forward their opinion....

Visit the FOIA electronic reading room, and read the released government documents on UFOs.

Lets say theres an alien race that can fold space!

Would an alien race that traveled 4 years to get hear, or that had the tech to fold space, be inclined to monitor our actions and remain pat all the while knowing that their presence is being manipulated by the governments of the race, (us) in which they have traveled great distances to see, meet, take over, what have you.

To me thats the equivalent of traveling 4 times around the earth to peek inside someones house through the window, without ever ringing the doorbell. Would you do that. Would a race with that type of tech, do that, and then allow there presence to be HIDDEN!

Thats more of a stretch to me than anything.

If folding space (for them) was as casual as us gassing up the car and putting it into Drive, then I'd imagine it's not so much of a stretch after all.

The evidence available points to alien visitation.
It also points to a willingness on THEIR (the aliens) part to keep it a secret.
It DOESN'T point to WHY they wish this, so any such reason is sheer speculation.
It likewise points to an effort by the military to cover up the existence of this visitation. (this is clear in such cases as the Roswell coverup, and the fact that Bluebook leaders and investigators have come out and stated it was a PR sham).
There IS evidence to show why the military would cover it up... Other than common sense (failure to protect, tech value, etc.), there is the Brookings Report recommendation of course. (Google it if you don't know), but little to go on regarding what the aliens want...

If folding space (for them) was as casual as gasing up the car and putting it into Drive, then I'd imagine it's not so much of a stretch after all.

It would appear that with all the so called "evidence" that a lot of people are compelled to believe, I guess that it is as casual as filling up the tank.

Remeber, that each instance that a person claims to have had with an alien visitor, is another trip made from somewhere, and as I stated before our closest galactic neighbor is 36 million miles away. So that is the least distance theyve traversed. Are they holding up somewhere or do they go back home each trip. My, the frequent flier miles they must have.

Can you comprehend 1 million miles? Which is relatively short distance in space.

I cant.

Now, agian if they can fold space they can go anywhere in an infinite universe.

SO THEY CHOOSE TO COME TO EARTH AND REMAIN HIDDEN YET LEAVE CLUES TO THERE EXISTANCE BUT DOESNT WANT TO BE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC IN MASS.

Thats believeable?

Would Micheal Jorden go to a basketball game played by 6 year olds and hide behind the bleachers.

Probably not!

If so, how long before he got bored and left or said lett me show them something. O wait I guess hed only pick out 1 kid and tutor him only.

Thats it!!

I took a look through those military testimonies, at least the ones that weren't dead links. I didn't find them particularly convincing, but maybe that's from my skepticism on the subject.

As to the subject of Roswell, I haven't yet had the chance to go through Gazrok's materials, but from what I already know, alien or not, it sure as heck wasn't a weather balloon You'd think, though, if it really had been an alien ship that crashed, wouldn't we have a bunch of scavenged technology from them, unless it was all too advanced to reverse engineer?

Anyway, as of the moment, I still remain extremely skeptical about alien visitations, but concede that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that certainly leaves the possibility open. Hopefully I'll be able to get a few of the suggested books and have a better idea of the subject soon.

Originally posted by CrossBone
(...)
Remeber, that each instance that a person claims to have had with an alien visitor, is another trip made from somewhere, and as I stated before our closest galactic neighbor is 36 million miles away. So that is the least distance theyve traversed. Are they holding up somewhere or do they go back home each trip. My, the frequent flier miles they must have.

Can you comprehend 1 million miles? Which is relatively short distance in space.

I cant.

Now, agian if they can fold space they can go anywhere in an infinite universe.
(...)

That's right, or at least we think it is. So far, we are unable to do it ourselves, but theories indicate that it is indeed possible. In who knows how many years, I firmly believe that humanity will also be able to bend space and travel at will in the entire universe.

Originally posted by CrossBone
(...)
SO THEY CHOOSE TO COME TO EARTH AND REMAIN HIDDEN YET LEAVE CLUES TO THERE EXISTANCE BUT DOESNT WANT TO BE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC IN MASS.

Thats believeable?
(...)

Yes, it is believable. We should look at things from the outside to understand it better... We humans are doing the same things with colonies of animals on earth. We observe and remain distant, we try not to interact, to avoid disturbing the normal way of those animals. From time to time we manage though to capture one to observe in a lab, or to cut into pieces, or... And anyway, when we do so, we leave traces there...

We, humans on earth, are those animals for them, highly advanced civilization(s?) out there. And we are likely not the only species that they observe. I think that the human race in general has to forget its pride of uniqueness. We are surely not unique, just a coin in the marvellous treasure that the whole universe is.

Originally posted by SpookyVince
We, humans on earth, are those animals for them, highly advanced civilization(s?) out there. And we are likely not the only species that they observe. I think that the human race in general has to forget its pride of uniqueness. We are surely not unique, just a coin in the marvellous treasure that the whole universe is.

This is a very enlightening statement, Well put.

I believe that if they have good intentions (which I'm not so sure of), they would still not want to collaborate. Maybe if they did, it would be like giving a loaded gun to a child. It could be that they have done it before, and had disasterous effects. Personally, I don't think they care that we think. They observe us, and test our abilities. Maybe one day we will pass their test, then they will know we are ready.

[edit on 4/10/2005 by Hal9000]

[edit on 4/10/2005 by Hal9000]

There's no undeniable proof as of yet that there are UFOs, but the evidences are very strong, and some of these, just as the Army Vs UFO attack on Los Angeles during WW 2, would make any debunking effort from skeptics like a stupid joke. A proof is something that only an incoherent fool can deny, and something that all people who have a minimum of conscience and reason will recognize as being real... but still at this point, with all the historical and modern accounts, we're very, very close from there.

I think it's about time that we stop asking on wether the phenomenon's real or not and begin to think about where do we go from there. I mean to think about what we'll do if They ever get to contact us officially, and more importantly how are we supposed to live our lives, under the assumption that THEY ARE HERE AND THEY ARE WATCHING US....

[edit on 10/4/05 by Echtelion]

SO THEY CHOOSE TO COME TO EARTH AND REMAIN HIDDEN YET LEAVE CLUES TO THERE EXISTANCE BUT DOESNT WANT TO BE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC IN MASS.
Thats believeable?
(...)
Yes, it is believable. We should look at things from the outside to understand it better... We humans are doing the same things with colonies of animals on earth. We observe and remain distant, we try not to interact, to avoid disturbing the normal way of those animals. From time to time we manage though to capture one to observe in a lab, or to cut into pieces, or... And anyway, when we do so, we leave traces there...

Also, it is almost certainly impossible for humans to comprehend what the goals of another species might be. Have you ever seen an animal do something that totally mystified you? My cat does things like that all the time, like yesterday she was sitting on a chair peacefully, and all of a sudden sat up and deliberately pushed my textbook onto the floor. Why? I haven't the foggiest idea. Similarly, my cat probably wonders why the heck I am staring at my computer screen right now, hammering away at my keyboard. She probably thinks I'm insane (and she might be right!)

For all we know, aliens watch us as a form of entertainment, like a cosmic reality show. Maybe they get sexual pleasure out of it? Maybe it is some kind of spiritual pilgrimage? Maybe something we cannot even conceive of?

Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by SpookyVince
We, humans on earth, are those animals for them, highly advanced civilization(s?) out there. And we are likely not the only species that they observe. I think that the human race in general has to forget its pride of uniqueness. We are surely not unique, just a coin in the marvellous treasure that the whole universe is.

This is a very enlightening statement, Well put.

I believe that if they have good intentions (which I'm not so sure of), they would still not want to collaborate. Maybe if they did, it would be like giving a loaded gun to a child. It could be that they have done it before, and had disasterous effects. Personally, I don't think they care that we think. They observe us, and test our abilities. Maybe one day we will pass their test, then they will know we are ready.

[edit on 4/10/2005 by Hal9000]

[edit on 4/10/2005 by Hal9000]

Thank you so much... I didn't even think I was writing something that profound, but indeed with some distance I like what I wrote!

You know, you're talking about passing a test... We humans now are watching dolphins in that way... We know now that they communicate, just as probably those greys know we are. We are just left with an intelligent species that we still need to understand, probably just as they are. And we keep observing dolphins, and taking some of them to the lab, probably just as they (greys) are doing with us!

Poor humans... I believe we still need a few millions of years before we know what we are to do... Until now, it is just guessing and trying. Sometimes we happen to hit the right button, but that is just a beginning.

I agree with SpookyVince 100%.

Advanced species of other planets may "set sail" on trips around the galaxy in the interest of learning about and discovering new places, just as humans have been doing for centuries.

I disagree with the argument that humans cannot possibly comprehend the intentions of an alien species. The cat may not understand the typing on the keyboard, but nor does it understand the consequence of action as a human would.

You might also say we're not capable of comprehending the universe. That has never stopped us from trying, and I don't see why the understanding of potential 'non-Earth origin' biological entities should be any different.

There is also the argument that an alien species could never get here because it would require speed of light travel. Time is only a barrier to you if you're perceiving it. So I believe that they could possibly travel great distances by placing themselves into a state of suspended animation by dropping the temperatures inside craft. This isn't exactly hard to do in the cold depths of space. Infact, it's probably harder not to enter a state of suspended animation.

Having said all that I'm only open to the possiblity of EBE's visiting Earth. I'm not 100% convinced it is occuring. There just isn't enough evidence to support it.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by electric]

Now, agian if they can fold space they can go anywhere in an infinite universe.

SO THEY CHOOSE TO COME TO EARTH AND REMAIN HIDDEN YET LEAVE CLUES TO THERE EXISTANCE BUT DOESNT WANT TO BE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC IN MASS.

Thats believeable?

Far more believable than people over the course of hundreds of years making up the SAME stories even when separated by culture, distance, geography, and time.

Far more believable than the government simply wasting money and decades on numerous projects (Blue Book, Grudge, Sign, etc.) to study a non-existent phenomenon.

Far more believable than numerous sergeants, captains, generals, etc. lying under oath only to purposefully damage their reputations.

Far more believable than the Mogul explanation of Roswell.

Far more believable than the Army simply firing over 1400 rounds at their imagination over LA in '42.

I think you see where we're going with this....

Originally posted by electric
I agree with SpookyVince 100%.

Thank you.

Originally posted by electric
Advanced species of other planets may "set sail" on trips around the galaxy in the interest of learning about and discovering new places, just as humans have been doing for centuries.

I disagree with the argument that humans cannot possibly comprehend the intentions of an alien species. The cat may not understand the typing on the keyboard, but nor does it understand the consequence of action as a human would.

You might also say we're not capable of comprehending the universe. That has never stopped us from trying, and I don't see why the understanding of potential 'non-Earth origin' biological entities should be any different.

We don't have to "comprehend"... We're just the same. Assuming that intelligent life exists and that they are visiting us is aknowledging that they very likely consider us as inferior. At least, inferior to them: we're not able to do what they are doing (I'm explicitly talking about traveling those distances in a reasonable amount of time). Maybe a cat (I happen to have a cat at home) does not understand why I am now and here typing this, but I can assure you that my can is more clever than some humans I know! Just on different levels of evolution.

I honestly can't think of man doing that kind of stuff (interstellar travels) before a few centuries. This is obviously just a wild guess, but we're currently far away of that, and also (and should I say mainly) locked in our secular prejudices that prevent us from going away of "tradition" into the weird. Scientists are for the most part too conservatives: no idea that is not accepted as a possibilty is to be rejected. Sad world for true scientists...

Originally posted by electric
There is also the argument that an alien species could never get here because it would require speed of light travel. Time is only a barrier to you if you're perceiving it. So I believe that they could possibly travel great distances by placing themselves into a state of suspended animation by dropping the temperatures inside craft. This isn't exactly hard to do in the cold depths of space. Infact, it's probably harder not to enter a state of suspended animation.

Having said all that I'm only open to the possiblity of EBE's visiting Earth. I'm not 100% convinced it is occuring. There just isn't enough evidence to support it.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by electric]

The light barrier is not unanimously recognized now anymore as a definite barrier, and there are other ways suggested of going far above the speed of light. There are numerous docs about that everywhere, and I'm sorry to be too lazy right now to post links. Just let me know, for those who are interested, I can spend a minute or two googling that.

[Edit]
A few typos and a minor edit.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by SpookyVince]

I honestly can't think of man doing that kind of stuff (interstellar travels) before a few centuries. This is obviously just a wild guess, but we're currently far away of that, and also (and should I say mainly) locked in our secular prejudices that prevent us from going away of "tradition" into the weird.

But everytime I hear that, I'm reminded that we went from horse and buggy to landing on the moon in half a century. From coal-burning trains, to transatlantic jet flights, from hand figuring, to advanced computers in the palm of the hand. And suddenly, it doesn't seem so far-fetched anymore.....

Originally posted by Gazrok
(...)we went from horse and buggy to landing on the moon in half a century.

From coal-burning trains, to transatlantic jet flights, from hand figuring, to advanced computers in the palm of the hand. And suddenly, it doesn't seem so far-fetched anymore.....

That's right, but still... I don't think I'm pessimistic in thinking that way, still I believe I won't see an actual start of that in my lifetime (and expect about 50 more years if no problems...).

I wish I were wrong somehow, but I don't believe it. Time will tell anyway!

Are you CIA, NSA, DNI, Blue Berets or other? Sounds like a debunking effort so just wondering where your from..

Dallas

Originally posted by SpookyVince
We don't have to "comprehend"... We're just the same. Assuming that intelligent life exists and that they are visiting us is aknowledging that they very likely consider us as inferior.

Actually, I agree with you on the inferiority part. I just had a thought: if an extra-terrestrial race saw us as a worthy opponent, they could attack us in the interest of furthering their own evolution.

If star wars is not a reality, and there are advanced races of beings traversing the galaxy, then the question must be asked; how exactly are these beings evolving?

'cause their here. Not just one race but many. Think the question now may be Why Are They Here?

E Cayce suggested in a book written by one his scribes - their here to prevent world destruction.

Dallas

I believe (or should i say i know), because of :

- The constant flow of sightings since decades.
- Evidences like this.
- And the simple fact that other civilizations didn't wait us during the milions years preceding birth of the earth.

[edit on 12/4/2005 by Musclor]