Americas Brutal Prisons

I think we should try to change these people rather than torture them. Some of them, However, can not be helped.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by christconserv]

Originally posted by christconserv
I think we should try to change these people rather than torture them. Some of them, However, can not be helped.

- I think this is quite right christconserv......

....and those that cannot be 'helped' we should treat humanely and with humanity because we are not the same as the barbarian.

Equally all in our society should be well treated so that these rather stupid arguements comparing how tough life outside supposedly is do not arise.....

.....although much of this 'holiday camp' BS is tabloid myth parroted by those who have never had the slightest thing to do with a real prison.

I also find it the height of sickening hypocrisy that some on the right-wing spout their anti-gay rubbish 24/7 yet are quite happy for it to be a 'fact of life' in many prisons that brutal homosexual rape is effectively just an additional part of the punishment.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by christconserv
I think we should try to change these people rather than torture them. Some of them, However, can not be helped.

- I think this is quite right christconserv......

....and those that cannot be 'helped' we should treat humanely and with humanity because we are not the same as the barbarian.

Equally all in our society should be well treated so that these rather stupid arguements comparing how tough life outside supposedly is do not arise.....

.....although much of this 'holiday camp' BS is tabloid myth parroted by those who have never had the slightest thing to do with a real prison.

I also find it the height of sickening hypocrisy that some on the right-wing spout their anti-gay rubbish 24/7 yet are quite happy for it to be a 'fact of life' in many prisons that brutal homosexual rape is effectively just an additional part of the punishment.

I think hate is wrong, it does not make a differance what the subject is.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by christconserv]

I think anyone who thinks US prisons are "luxury hotels" should be forced to spend a year in one. Don't drop the soap!

I read someplace a long time ago that it costs on average about $25,000 a year to house and keep an inmate in the American prison system. Thats actual dollars now. Thats more money than it would cost that prisoner to keep himself housed and fed out in the real world. Thats like a $37,000ish pretax income. Id be willing to say thats MUCH more than most of these people are earning prior to thier imprisonment.

My point? I am certain there are "issues" of misstreatment at some prisions, just like the rest of the world has im sure, but overall the American prison system is a country club and these people are treated far to well.

Well, another post by a non American attempting to further peoples hatred of America. Good job!

Originally posted by persian
www.informationclearinghouse.info...

Oh ... the BBC ... yeah, there's an unbiased news source.
If this is true then murderers and rapists are having a difficult
time in jail. Excuse me while I cry for them ... NOT!

If those in jail don't like their conditions then we can always ship
them to a jail in Mexico or Haiti or Cuba. Let them try those foreign
jails out for a while. They'll be crying to get back in the American
system.


[edit on 4/7/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh ... the BBC ... yeah, there's an unbiased news source.

If this is true then murderers and rapists are having a difficult
time in jail. Excuse me while I cry for them ... NOT!

BBC is an unbiased source...if not they wouldnt have gone against the government on several cases, not shown the actions of a several british soldier abuseing prisnors

So now the BBC are a biased and untrustworthy news source.

There is, and rightly so, a difference between justice and vengance. Prison is, I thought, meant for rehabilitation of the criminal. Shouldn't society be striving toward the rehabilitation of those that do offend rather than personal deisre for vengance.

Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote "A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens, but by how it treats its criminals." and I agree.

Jack

I can just imagine a prison guard coming home from the hard day of beating up prisoners:

"hi honey how was your day?"

"it was great love, i really love my work!"

and procedes to being a loving father and husband....

NOT!

I do apologize if I gave the impression that I believe your brother as a guard was acting in a derelict fashion Simon_Boudreaux. That was not my intention at all nor was it my intention to give the impression that I believe that you specifically dont believe that a gay person should be afforded the same rights as everyone else. Once again I do apoligize and I must say your opinion on this whole matter is quite reasonable in my opinion.

I think what Majic was saying earlier is very much correct and relevant in these circumstances. Prisons do vary by and large in America. Some are relatively enlightened places others are unspeakable stains on the face of the earth. However the stains unfortunately overshadow the good institutions. Heck I wouldnt be surprised if prisons in Russia and China were exactly the same. Lax prisons for the elite, hellholes for everyone else.

I think wyrdeone is spot on regarding this issue. The guilty must be punished and the dregs of society have to be segregated from the rest of America. I believe prison should be a severe almost monastic existence worthy of the term penitentiary. A place where the a prisoner has the full time to reflect upon their crimes and realize the gravity of their situation in a nonvindictive manner. It should also be a filtration system where those who can be rehabilited will be and those who seek only violence will be isolated. The road to redemption should not be easy so as to discourage the insincere but attainable for those dedicated to rehabilitation. Above all prison should be run in a nonprofit manner. The whole concept of a system where profits are driven by the suffering of others is reprehensible. As long as someone can make a buck off of prison management there will be no serious attempts at prison reform. Remember there's no money in the cure.

This is all pie in the sky dreaming because the cause of the problem remains intractable. The prison system is catastrophically overcrowded due to a legal system that has been obsessed with appearing tough on crime for the past decade or two. We need legal reform before we can even begin to go up against the prison industrial complex.

Originally posted by JAK
Prison is, I thought, meant for rehabilitation of the criminal.

Yep. Absolutely. But the problem is that many of the criminals
don't want to be rehabilitated. There is only just so much money
in the system. If it all has to go towards security because most
of the hardcore criminals don't want to be rehabilitated, then the
few that do want an education will suffer for it. Perhaps there is
a system to identify those few and remove them from the population,
but I wouldn't know about that.

If gangers in the courtyard want to kill other gangers ...
I'm not going to get upset over it. In a perfect world they
would all be locked away and given an education and they'd
be happy and turn into productive members of society. But in
reality they just want to be king of their respective gangs and kill.

I don't want my taxes raised to pay for education programs that
won't be received and that won't be wanted. I applaud programs
that do work and I'd like to see more of them, but change has to
happen with the criminals in jail. They have to WANT to change
and frankly, considering the repeat offender rates, I don't see it.

JAK
The concept of rehabilitation in America's prisons was pretty much abandoned from the seventies on, though it started to decay much earlier (I'll come back to this) it just wasn't working well enough to justify costs associated with the methodology (and it contributed to recidivism to a lesser extent, which failed to achieve the cyclical nature so important to a sustainable system). Insitutions are subject to the same laws as organisms, they develop survival instincts as a necessary function of their operation.

It's actually quite feasible to 'break' the minds of men, and reform them to the desired shape, the problem is, as soon as you let them out back into their environment, the pressures of that environment begin reshaping them back to their former, sucessful form, and without the continued pressure from the other direction, these people simply won't 'keep their shape.'

If you don't believe what I've said above, just look at cults. They specialize in changing perceptions and modifying behaviors. In order to change the 'mark', that person must be removed from their environment and all countering influences (friends and family). Pressure is exerted by various methods, and a new paradigm is enforced. Conversely, if you want to deprogram a cult member, one has to get them away from the cultists and expose them to the influence of the other group, to reshape their perceptions and achieve the desired behavioral modification. The techniques of programming/deprogramming are tried and true. I'm sure a web search will uncover a veritable treasure trove of information, and the services of professional deprogrammers are still advertised despite the questionable legality of their operations.

There's another problem that people don't like to talk about, and that's the fact that punishment prisons reinforce the behaviors that got people locked up in the first place. Any guard will tell you, there is a very strict heirarchy enforced, for obvious reasons. The guards must be in control of the prisoners, because of their numerical inferiority, so they use techniques to instill fear and artificial respect (respect of violence). This sort of system works reasonably well to dissuade violence against guards, as long as they are perceived as the Alpha Males, but it does nothing to 'cure' violent behavior. It simply reinforces the behavior that our society deems wrong; that is to say, prisons encourage the mindset that violence and intimidation are the path to power, respect, and success.

Violent/aggressive tendencies, by and large, are a response to environmental factors (just as gangs are a response to dangerous/impoverished living conditions - hyenas and chimpanzees operate in gangs, to bolster their survivability while operating in dangerous environments. Take a chimpanzee out of its environment and apply 'pressure' of various sorts to induce change, and sure enough, change will occur.

There are exceptions, per usual - some people seem to be evolutionary experiments designed to contribute to success - they resist change because they're strongly influenced by their internal motivators. These behaviors that were so successful in natural history actually contribute to failure in our contemporary system. In the 'wild' a reactively violent person would have a higher success ratio than a pacifist, because they would not lose breeding priviledges to larger, more agressive males. However, violent males in our society are at an extreme disadvantage, evolutionarily, because if they are caught, they get locked up and denied the right to breed for the most part.

Following this thought through, that means we are de-selecting violence (by incarcerating the violent), while at the same time encouraging those individuals who are both violent and clever enough to escape incarceration. We're not helping ourselves or our society by affecting this sort of evolution, and the facts bear that hypothesis out. Just look around, and ask yourself, why are things so bad now?

Anyone ever wonder why men in prison for violent offenses often receive scores of marriage proposals and sexual solicitations? It's because of the unconscious perception of power we still cling to from our days in the jungle.

So what we've done is set up a system that punishes violence, which runs in direct opposition of the laws of nature which have governed our development for millenia. It's a pretty obvious recipe for failure. In essence, it's eugenics; the conscious manipulation of the traits of a population through breeding control. I'm not even going to get into the racial inequality of the prison system, that's a topic too big and too contentious to get into at any length here without diverting the conversation.

Nukunuku
You make a very good point about prison guards. Many are in the business for the wrong reason, they desire power over others. Many are in it for sexual satisfaction, or to bolster their own self esteem/ego. The incidents of rape and molestation in prisons don't bypass guards, they are regularly involved in lewd acts with prisoners. Some are in it to satisfy their feelings of powerlessness, or to revel in sadism. Some guards are just 'day jobbers', men and women in need of a job, period. Then there are the altruists, but they tend not to last long because of the hopelessness that environment fosters. Unfortunately altruists often morph into day jobbers, but sadists never change. So we've got a system in a perpetual state of devolution.

Many people who are anti-social, violent, and abusive, find jobs that allow them to satisfy their urges on the clock. Cops, prison guards, dominatrixes, etc... I'm not stereotyping all guards and cops and dominatrixes here, please let's be clear about that. However, there is a great deal of evidence supporting the fact that these lines of work 'call' to a certain segment of people, just as boy scout leader, coach, and camp counselour are job titles that attract pedophiles.

I don't want to get a lot of crap for this statement, because I'm not interested in rebutting claims that I'm being unfair. It's clear that there are good people in every segment of society, but for obvious reasons, people tend to gravitate towards those fields that satisfy their desires.

What's even more alarming is this; aggressive guards, sadistic guards, and violent guards are the most encouraged. They show results, and so are promoted to positions of power.

boogyman
Profit is the key I think. Once the state discovered prisons could be something more than a drain on resources, the flood gates opened wide. Now the prison system is largely privatized, highly profitable in many places, and a HUGE source of jobs in this country. People tend not to consider all the sectors that rely on the business of prison, but the list is an extensive one. There are literally millions of people who would be unemployed or underemployed if our prison system was a more responsible entity. Of course, in my opinion, a job is nothing more than indentured servitude, and a responsible society has no need for slaves. Again, that's a topic for another thread.

It's no coincidence that there are more lawyers in law school every year than there are practicing lawyers, this is a case of an artificially induced demand fueling supply to ridiculous excesses. Lawyers are a huge part of the workforce that rely on the Injustice System, which includes the prisons, courts, law enforcement apparatus, and all associated contractors.

Then there are the construction crews (developers are rolling in contracts for new prisons, and they take their top cheese off of taxpayer dollars), the guard's unions, the food service employees/catering companies, the gun manufacturers (and tasers/pepper spray/ballistic shields/restraints etc. etc.), there's the states that benefit from manufacturing and other services which prisons provide at slave labor cost, there's the middle men taking profit by arranging deals, there's the lobbyists and liasons, there's teamsters and consultants, uniform suppliers and police officers, judges and court reporters, parole boards, engineers, accountants, vehicle manufacturers, drug dealers (both legitimate and illegitimate), psychologists, doctors/nurses, file clerks, DEA, furniture manufacturers, and I'm sure the list doesn't end there. - my point is that all these industries take huge combined profits every year, due to the inequity of the prison system. They don't necessarily rely on the prison system, but in times of recession, the prison system is a buoy in the middle of a very big ocean, so we cling to it out of necessity.

See, wherever public money enters and private profit exits, there is going to be rampant inefficiency, graft, and waste. We see it time and time again with defense contractors and government suppliers. How many $800 toilet seats and $30 screws does it take to convince people the system we have isn't worthy of support?

Prisons, like schools, should be not-for-profit to preclude abuse and mismanagement - you're absolutely right on this boogyman.

Flyers Fan
I assure you, the prison system is not geared towards rehabilitation. As I've said, it was once the primary goal of the American prison, but not anymore. Now, the goal is incarceration and punishment (or attonement if you prefer). The idea of prison in America started off as an effort to reform criminals, it was designed to teach, treat, and eventually return offenders to society. That concept changed when the prison system split into two separate schools of thought, two takes on a (then) recently coined 'science'; penology. The turning point was the construction of the first penitentiary.

Ever since, debate has raged, but the idea of incarceration and punishment has won out every time because of the influence of moneyed politicians and private businessmen, and of course the religious consituency who feel it is their moral duty to punish 'sinners' despite the bible's blatant text pointing to the opposite. That was in Pennsylvania incidentally where the first American penitentiary was built, PA was a bastion of 'morality' in the formative years of American Justice. Here's a good read on the subject.

www.correctionhistory.org...

Our institutions are organisms. They have survival instincts like any other creature, and they have a predatory nature - a parasitic existence. Why can't politicians keep their promises? Because if they did, it would guarantee their extinction. Why can't prisons cure offenders? Because it would guarantee their uselessness. :shrug: We expect too much from simple creatures, in my opinion.

Boogeyman I mentioned my brother only because he works in a prison.I never once felt you were attacking him or saying he was a bad guard an such.no worries dude.

I talked to him for a long time tonight about this thread and the things we've talked about on it.I would like for him to come to my house and give you all an insight to what it's really like but I'm not sure if I would be allowed to have someone else post under my name.He asked me to tell you all that many of the guards like WydreOne said do in fact get into it for the power trip,and the chance to bully people around.My brother hates his job but does it because it's one of the main employers in the town.He also wanted me to tell you that many guards not only take out the stress they get from the job on the inmates but their families as well.He admitted to me tonight that he has roughed inmates up for things they've done to him...mostly the spitters and $hitters as he calls them.These are the ones that throw semem and feces and spit on the guard as they walk by.Can't say I blame the guards for abusing someone like that,If it happened to me the inmate wouldn't be able to throw anything again by the time I finished with him.But yet we don't hear about the things that the inmates do to the guards only what the guards do to the inmates.
I fear for my brother's safety, his life ,and even his sanity doing this job(he works in one of the worst prisons in missouri and up until recently the only prison that does executions).I have noticed a big change in my brother from working there,he doesn't seem happy anymore,he's taking antidepressants now,and has just lost his girlfriend due to the way he treated her when he would get home from work.So from talking to him tonight I can understand why a guard would abuse an inmate.Do I think it's wrong now?If the abuse is done simply for the satisfaction of being mean to someone yes.If it's done for something that the inmate does like what I described above then sure beat the guy stupid.The Potosi Prison where he works houses the worst.These are the men that will never see the outside of the prison until their death and have nothing to lose.Do I feel bad for them getting abused?No I don't.I'm sure they didn't feel bad when they were killing or raping their victims.Perhaps I'm biased because I see the type of person my brother is becoming from working around these prisoners.


Simon

Simon's brother proves what I said in my earlier post, the brutatility in prisons has to be stopped not for some altruistic concern for the prisoners even though I believe a good percent of the people in prison are nowhere near the animals most posters here seem to make them out (our drug laws are making sure of that) the effects this has on the guards and their families and the damage that these brutulized inmates will dish out when they get out and. Not everyone in prison is a complete animal out of the 2 million prisoners that we have, how many are Brutal murders, Child molesters and similar scum (I wonder if anybody has some kind of breakdown of the prison population) I've notice that a lot of poster here tend the dismiss everybody in jail by making the above scum i mention the poster child for prisoners, but a lot of people in there are there for minor Personal use drug offences. I'm sure most people new somebody who was alright guy except they he may like do a little drugs on the side or something. and anybody here on this board can find themselves in a prison easily, Trying getting a little out of hand defending yourselves from criminal (kill somebody breaking into your place) and trust me I know people in jail when they want a little play toy they dont go after other hardened criminals they would go for the scared weak ones in the crowd people who in prison for the first time for a minor crime or may even be innocent (do u really think that courts never make mistakes). The guards end up being just as much of a victim of the brutality in prison as the prisoners. A few of them already go in there with sadistic intentions and a few of the ones that do go in that way sure do come out that way and they take it out on the prisoners, their families( are there any stats for domestic abuse among people who work in prisons). there are prenty of guards out there that are just as bad if not worst than most of the prisoners.

Simon_Boudreaux, good post. What you've said is food for thought...what a lousey job your brother has. I could'nt do it, I would react the same way if someone spit on me or threw their poop.


Maximu§

I'm not proud to say I have known many friends/family members who have spent hard time in americas prisons. Everyone of them have talked to me about they're time in those prisons, everyone of them told me it sucked but as long as you stuck with your own color and didn't let anyone talk down to you, you would be fine. Our prisons aren't great places to be but they sure are not terrible torcher chambers either..........unless your a child molester

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Kramthenothing]

Oblivions void

Perhaps you should take a trip to the Potosi Correctional Facilty.These criminals are the worst of the worst.It's a lifers and death sentance prison.there are no drug offenders there only killers,rapist ,and repeat sex offenders that are too dangerous to be put in any lower security prison or mental hospital.The last execution my brother worked was of a man that raped and then threw his victim over a brigde.This man laughed as the needles were put into his arms,and laughed until he went to sleep.This guy looked forward to his execution..it was his only out.

I don't think of a 19 year old kid that got busted with some weed as a criminal,and feel that our justice system needs to sit down and take a long hard look at the way they do things.To put someone that tokes alittle reefer or steals a car stereo into a prison like this is uncalled for..there will be no rehabilitation for this person only hell,and will only become a product of his/her environment.I've heard many times that prisoners will be released only to be back within a year or less because after being in prison for so many years it's all they know.They don't know how to act in society anymore.
I wish I had something on the domestic abuse between guards and their families.although my brother guesses it to be quite high.



LA_Maximus
Nor could I do that job.
My fear is that my brother will turn into the same type of people he guards.He is not the same brother I had at this time last year.I've begged him to quit his job and come to work with me but he won't leave the town because of family and friends.It's an eerie feeling to watch a loved one that use to make anyone laugh sit and stare off into space.He won't talk to me about many of the things he has witnessed and the look in his eyes tells me I probably don't want to know.

Kramthenothing
You're dead on about the race thing..you don't see whites hanging with blacks...you don't see mexicans hanging with muslims.
Speaking of Muslims my brother tells me the most popular religion in the PCF is muslim.

Originally posted by Kramthenothing
unless your a child molester

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Kramthenothing]

I don't know how it works in the US, but in Australia child molestors, pedophiles, granny rapists and bashers are usually put in isolation or are all given their own section of the gaol.

Originally posted by D

Originally posted by Kramthenothing
unless your a child molester

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Kramthenothing]

I don't know how it works in the US, but in Australia child molestors, pedophiles, granny rapists and bashers are usually put in isolation or are all given their own section of the gaol.

I know that at the prison my brother works at molesters have there own cellblock..and are not put into general population with the rest of the prisoners,although I think they should be.and if it's an extreme case they are kept in solitare they're entire sentence.

It's too bad that we don't use the death penalty as it was intended. In my opinion these people will never change and should be removed for good. We don't need them. If we become harder then maybe someone will think twice about their actions and if not, seeee yaaaa.