Karahan Tepe Supercivilization

originally posted by: zandra
a reply to: SLAYER69

Authorities assume that no other civilization before the Egyptians was able to build the pyramids.

I should point out that other than the Mesopotamian zuggarats, we haven't seen any civilization before that building pyramids.

Once they found Göbekli Tepe (and Karahan Tepe) authorities are apparently a little confused, because we don't hear this argument anymore.

Laymen are confused. Archaeologists are aware that there's always new things to find and that older technology gives clues to how we went from migrant hunter-gatherers to cities.

To me the Pyramids are the greatest mystery of all times, but Karahan Tepe will prove that human history must be rewritten.

History and science are constantly being rewritten as new things are discovered. *Religion* doesn't change (the Bible of today is pretty much the same as when Martin Luther edited it... and the Catholic Bible is still pretty much the same as the old Vulgate compilation). But if history didn't change, we wouldn't have written about the Pyramid Texts (which were translated only in the past 120 years) or Tutankamun's tomb or light bulbs or the vacuum tube or radio waves, etc.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: zandra
a reply to: SLAYER69

Authorities assume that no other civilization before the Egyptians was able to build the pyramids.

I should point out that other than the Mesopotamian zuggarats, we haven't seen any civilization before that building pyramids.
...

The precursors of the ziggurat were raised platforms that date from the Ubaid period[7] during the sixth millennium BC. The ziggurats began as platforms (usually oval, rectangular or square). The ziggurat was a mastaba-like structure with a flat top (en.wikipedia.org...).

Karahan Tepe (which contains obelisks and other structures, but no pyramids) pre-dates the Ubaid raised platforms Ubaid raised platforms by about 4,000 or 5,000 years.

And the Ubaid raised platforms pre-date the First Dynasty Mastaba 3808 at Saqqarah by some 3,000 years.

See also Iraq's answer to the pyramids:

Egypt may have the Pyramids of Giza, but Iraq has the Ziggurat of Ur –
an incredibly well-preserved engineering achievement that towers over
the ruins of an important ancient city.

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: SLAYER69

Slayer, dude, I love ya but I gotta take exception to your use of "civilization" and "super-civilization."

A civilization has cities and organized central governments and a structured system that allows specialty tradespeople. Like ancient Egypt. Small villages without any organization is a "culture." Calling it a civilization gives a misleading idea of the technology and organization and scope.
(yeah, I know... you're going "ARRRGH- BYRD!!!!" at me, but it's true (and we both know I'm a picky old academic... so there!))

Good to see ya Byrd

I admit it was a bit click baitish but still a great site and topic.

The deal is that all these sites, the two mentioned GT and KT and all the others mentioned in the posted videos, Are collectively combined Huge, it's a massive area. What none have shown yet are the homesteads. There's been items found that relate to habitation but not the homes themselves. Now they could still be buried locally to each location but haven't really been found, Ill admit this is all speculation on my part but it boggles the mind when one considers the period and the extent of previously unknown abilities at this era.

So these archaic people collectively did nothing else but hunting gathering and massive temple complex building while being completely transient? At each of these sites it's been estimated that only 5 to 8 % have been excavated. This leads one to wonder just how large over all these locations are? Which geographically means they spread near to each other at or near the same period.

*Kinda like building NY near Chicago and Baltimore at or around the same time but not connected to each other by some sort of governing body?

Construction requires planning, Designing and communication to execute. All sign of civilization. Not like Easter island where they'd carved some lava stones then walked them to the beach and planted them where they felt like. *Culture

These sites are planned and executed with purpose and forethought.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: SLAYER69

Slayer, dude, I love ya but I gotta take exception to your use of "civilization" and "super-civilization."

A civilization has cities and organized central governments and a structured system that allows specialty tradespeople. Like ancient Egypt. Small villages without any organization is a "culture." Calling it a civilization gives a misleading idea of the technology and organization and scope.
(yeah, I know... you're going "ARRRGH- BYRD!!!!" at me, but it's true (and we both know I'm a picky old academic... so there!))

Good to see ya Byrd

I admit it was a bit click baitish but still a great site and topic.

The deal is that all these sites, the two mentioned GT and KT and all the others mentioned in the posted videos, Are collectively combined Huge, it's a massive area. What none have shown yet are the homesteads. There's been items found that relate to habitation but not the homes themselves. Now they could still be buried locally to each location but haven't really been found, Ill admit this is all speculation on my part but it boggles the mind when one considers the period and the extent of previously unknown abilities at this era.

So these archaic people collectively did nothing else but hunting gathering and massive temple complex building while being completely transient? At each of these sites it's been estimated that only 5 to 8 % have been excavated. This leads one to wonder just how large over all these locations are? Which geographically means they spread near to each other at or near the same period.

*Kinda like building NY near Chicago and Baltimore at or around the same time but not connected to each other by some sort of governing body?

Construction requires planning, Designing and communication to execute. All sign of civilization. Not like Easter island where they'd carved some lava stones then walked them to the beach and planted them where they felt like. *Culture

These sites are planned and executed with purpose and forethought.

Yep, its mysterious and unknown and will take decades to 'decode'. Not helped by the current political situation/chaos. We may find they had some connection with the Ubaid perhaps even the to Nile Valley - we shall see.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: SLAYER69

Slayer, dude, I love ya but I gotta take exception to your use of "civilization" and "super-civilization."

A civilization has cities and organized central governments and a structured system that allows specialty tradespeople. Like ancient Egypt. Small villages without any organization is a "culture." Calling it a civilization gives a misleading idea of the technology and organization and scope.
(yeah, I know... you're going "ARRRGH- BYRD!!!!" at me, but it's true (and we both know I'm a picky old academic... so there!))

Good to see ya Byrd

I admit it was a bit click baitish but still a great site and topic.

The deal is that all these sites, the two mentioned GT and KT and all the others mentioned in the posted videos, Are collectively combined Huge, it's a massive area. What none have shown yet are the homesteads. There's been items found that relate to habitation but not the homes themselves. Now they could still be buried locally to each location but haven't really been found, Ill admit this is all speculation on my part but it boggles the mind when one considers the period and the extent of previously unknown abilities at this era.

So these archaic people collectively did nothing else but hunting gathering and massive temple complex building while being completely transient? At each of these sites it's been estimated that only 5 to 8 % have been excavated. This leads one to wonder just how large over all these locations are? Which geographically means they spread near to each other at or near the same period.

*Kinda like building NY near Chicago and Baltimore at or around the same time but not connected to each other by some sort of governing body?

Construction requires planning, Designing and communication to execute. All sign of civilization. Not like Easter island where they'd carved some lava stones then walked them to the beach and planted them where they felt like. *Culture

These sites are planned and executed with purpose and forethought.

The sites do appear to exhibit what you might call the beginning, or at least some of the roots, of the dawn of civilization.
For sure they seem to indicate the beginning of a change in lifestyle that led to civilization.

Harte

It saddens me that people think of the rise of agriculture as the "dawn of civilization"

It was the dawn of genocide.

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: SLAYER69

What I find most interesting about both sites, is that they were deliberately buried. An archeologist in the first video you posted, claimed that they were homes. And when the home owner died, they buried the house just like the owner was buried. I’m not buying this explanation. However, I don’t have a better one. One thought is that they knew a massive cataclysm was coming (Younger Dryas), so they buried the sites to preserve them. Not sure how they could have known this, that’s why no explanations make much sense.

BIG S & F

In a lot of ancient wars, taking the enemy's temple was a big deal. The winner would either make off with the holy artifacts, or sometimes if they were particularly evil they would just desecrate it.

I suspect that the hunters and gatherers were losing a land war with the agriculturalists, and knew the temple would soon end up in enemy hands. They might have buried it just to keep their enemies from getting hold of it. Then left for lands further North or something.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
It saddens me that people think of the rise of agriculture as the "dawn of civilization"

It was the dawn of genocide.

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: SLAYER69

What I find most interesting about both sites, is that they were deliberately buried. An archeologist in the first video you posted, claimed that they were homes. And when the home owner died, they buried the house just like the owner was buried. I’m not buying this explanation. However, I don’t have a better one. One thought is that they knew a massive cataclysm was coming (Younger Dryas), so they buried the sites to preserve them. Not sure how they could have known this, that’s why no explanations make much sense.

BIG S & F

In a lot of ancient wars, taking the enemy's temple was a big deal. The winner would either make off with the holy artifacts, or sometimes if they were particularly evil they would just desecrate it.

I suspect that the hunters and gatherers were losing a land war with the agriculturalists, and knew the temple would soon end up in enemy hands. They might have buried it just to keep their enemies from getting hold of it. Then left for lands further North or something.

Possible

Hunter-gathers were not terribly peaceful. I can recommend this book: www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?crid=1VZIILICQE15H&keywords=war+before+civilization&qid=167272 5502&sprefix=war+before+civilization%2Caps%2C144&sr=8-1

Anthropology tells us that about 40% of males were killed in HG groups. One saw this in 'modern' times in inter-native American raiding and wars against one another.

www.science.org...

Chimps fight wars too. We are a violent animal.

Heck Harte often hides in trees and fires at passing motorists who might be fringe believers (he can tell by the tires) - while quaffing root beer and eating ribs. That was in his youth non-days he just throws day old bread at them.

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: zandra
a reply to: SLAYER69

Authorities assume that no other civilization before the Egyptians was able to build the pyramids.

I should point out that other than the Mesopotamian zuggarats, we haven't seen any civilization before that building pyramids.
...

The precursors of the ziggurat were raised platforms that date from the Ubaid period[7] during the sixth millennium BC. The ziggurats began as platforms (usually oval, rectangular or square). The ziggurat was a mastaba-like structure with a flat top (en.wikipedia.org...).

Karahan Tepe (which contains obelisks and other structures, but no pyramids) pre-dates the Ubaid raised platforms Ubaid raised platforms by about 4,000 or 5,000 years.

And the Ubaid raised platforms pre-date the First Dynasty Mastaba 3808 at Saqqarah by some 3,000 years.

See also Iraq's answer to the pyramids:

Egypt may have the Pyramids of Giza, but Iraq has the Ziggurat of Ur –
an incredibly well-preserved engineering achievement that towers over
the ruins of an important ancient city.

Exactly! We rewrite history all the time!

originally posted by: Byrd

Exactly! We rewrite history all the time!

...and certain folks get paid to do so. College text books are under a constant cycle of revision, especially in the sciences. Given the new methods of book creation - and publication on demand this has become easier. Archy 101 doesn't change much but as you get into the 300-400s those do as new stuff keeps coming in. They are usually a year or more behind 'the news'.

When I use to teach I just supplemented the required reading with an addendum with the latest discoveries, rehashs and re-thinks. Plus important stuff that was technically not archaeology but effected it, like developments in research technology, Paleontology, Geology, biology (DNA), fringe and History.

Here's a quick update. Getting pretty crowded over there.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

Here's a quick update. Getting pretty crowded over there.

Good info, but hate that guy's voice! Thanks for posting this S69!

a reply to: Hanslune

Yeah, It's some weird style of talking that I think some believe is popular. It's pretty grinding to me to hear him speak that way.

If it wasnt for the topic of the video I'd click away myself and I wont blame anyone who did either

Sweatman's "analysis" of a couple of stones at GT is laughed at by the crew that's been working there for decades.

So too was J Harland Bretz’ assertions about mega flood Events carving out the scablands .
They laughed at him too.
Who had the last laugh?
Laughing at something means nothing.
It’s reserved for d*cks like you and Hans to revel in, while others do the real research . a reply to: Harte

originally posted by: bluesfreak

Sweatman's "analysis" of a couple of stones at GT is laughed at by the crew that's been working there for decades.

So too was J Harland Bretz’ assertions about mega flood Events carving out the scablands .
They laughed at him too.
Who had the last laugh?
Laughing at something means nothing.
Harte

Bretz had evidence Sweatman had a biased opinion....

Bretz was also a geologist and they are an egotistical group (inside joke). His evidence was also subject to interpretation and a lack of explanation of where the water would come from to support his theory. Only later research revealed the extend and scope of the Ice age - that took 25-30 years to be arrived at - so regular old science. Same thing happened with plate tectonics - guy had the idea but no explanation of HOW they were moving or even if they were - idea not accepted until they found the method and proof the plates were moving. The standard scientific method.

originally posted by: bluesfreak

Sweatman's "analysis" of a couple of stones at GT is laughed at by the crew that's been working there for decades.

So too was J Harland Bretz’ assertions about mega flood Events carving out the scablands .
They laughed at him too.
Who had the last laugh?
Laughing at something means nothing.
It’s reserved for d*cks like you and Hans to revel in, while others do the real research . a reply to: Harte

Sweatman and the gang, all with no training in archaeology whatsoever, spent a few hours "analyzing" only a couple of the dozens of carved T-stones.
Are you even aware of what they have claimed they can "decode" on those few stones?

Not even in the same universe as Bretz and his hypothesis.
But nice use of a false equivalence fallacy, even though said fallacies aren't rare - especially around here.

Harte

originally posted by: bluesfreak

Sweatman's "analysis" of a couple of stones at GT is laughed at by the crew that's been working there for decades.

So too was J Harland Bretz’ assertions about mega flood Events carving out the scablands .
They laughed at him too.
Who had the last laugh?
Laughing at something means nothing.
It’s reserved for d*cks like you and Hans to revel in, while others do the real research . a reply to: Harte

The difference being that he did have degrees in the field (geology) and was well read on the topic.

These "alternative" proposals aren't being made by people familiar with the cultures around there and who (mostly) have never been on a dig.

One of my deepest regrets ever was failing to visit Gobekli Tepe when I was living in Turkey.

In my defense, I didn't even know it existed at the time... I drove right by it several times. 😏

originally posted by: NormalGuyCrazyWorld
One of my deepest regrets ever was failing to visit Gobekli Tepe when I was living in Turkey.

In my defense, I didn't even know it existed at the time... I drove right by it several times. 😏

Hey not to worry. I drove by the site in 1983, we decided not to go there as it was listed in the literature of the time as a "muslim cemetery/quarry". Dang

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