Is DC winning?

a reply to: whereislogic

and yeah Wakanda Forever is probably the worst marvel movie ever it's either that and I did think about this Captain Marvel. For the life of me I have no idea why I was excited for Brie Larson to play Captain Marvel. Can anyone looking at Brie Larson or hearing Brie Larson see Carold Denver Air force military person.

a reply to: Akragon

You are invested in the story world of MCU. Let me ask you what is the current phase four story of the MCU? Is it Secret invasion? is it multiverse with Kang? Or is it trying to find a man, where She Hulk left us?

a reply to: whereislogic

But wouldnt that mean that DC won with Joker if it got made with a cheap budget and was well recevied, and some of these other movies who have not been well recevied Like Thor Love and Thunder. I mean I don't have exact numbers but I dont hear alot of people talk about Thor Love and Thunder. I still hear more people talk about Ragnorak.

originally posted by: American-philosopher
a reply to: Akragon

You are invested in the story world of MCU. Let me ask you what is the current phase four story of the MCU? Is it Secret invasion? is it multiverse with Kang? Or is it trying to find a man, where She Hulk left us?

Theres a bunch of story lines... but it seems everything is recovering from End game.

Every movie or mini series adds another layer to the over all story.

Kang seems to be the Thanos of this phase, but you never know where things will land... at this point were kinda in limbo.

Theres just so much on the horizon, and with the multiverse in the mix now they can literally bring back anyone from the past.... Robert downy is coming back... hugh jackman... hopefull a bunch of the Xmen and villians

Theres lots to look forward to

originally posted by: American-philosopher
a reply to: whereislogic

But wouldnt that mean that DC won with Joker if it got made with a cheap budget and was well recevied, and some of these other movies who have not been well recevied Like Thor Love and Thunder. ...

Well, Joker did better economically than Spiderman at least. But that's just comparing 2 movies, the 2 that did best from an economic perspective for their respective franchises. From an economic perspective though, an argument can be made that Spiderman still had a better result, or more desired result, because of having higher total revenue. Meaning that if you can make the movie in the same amount of time as Joker, you can make your profits quicker because you have more money invested, so the absolute number for revenue in the same amount of time is higher, even if the percentage for the ROI is lower. For example, if it takes 1 year to make both movies, release them and make the threatre profits on them mentioned on the-numbers.com, then you can make the following profits on both movies over 1 year (roughly speaking, I am not considering other costs or the actual break even points, just purely budget vs gross cause those numbers are listed there, so it's not a true profit number, but an indication, just like my numbers for ROI):

Spiderman: 1910M - 200M = 1710M profit over 1 year
Joker: 1069M - 55M = 1014M profit over 1 year

As you can see, Spiderman makes more (absolute) profit over 1 year. So if you have the money to spare for the initial budget/investment, that type of movie might be preferred. If you are a smaller company with less money to invest, smaller projects like Joker could be preferred. Depends a bit on other factors as well (such as other projects).

Thor: Love and Thunder did about as well as The Batman this year in ww gross (761M vs 768M). But it did have 50M more budget (250M vs 200M). It did considerably better than Black Adam with its 200M budget* though (which had only 391M ww gross). *: that's the budget given at the-numbers.com, IMDB has 195M, and the article linked further below says: "...the movie was greenlit with a $190 million budget, but additional reshoots after poor test screenings "ballooned" the budget to $260 million. When marketing expenses are also taken into account, Black Adam's modest box office of $391 million globally simply does not pay off."

Any ROI higher than 3 or 300% (as is the case for Thor: Love and Thunder, 304%) is an above average movie (economically speaking) I would say. Based on my occasional glances on the-numbers.com regarding the most expensive movies on the first 12 pages or so (movies above 50M budget). Below that, terms like "box office flop" may come into play. As would be the case for Black Adam, where it's below 200%. For comparison, Justice League 2017 has an ROI of 219%, still better than Black Adam, and for that one, "flop" was already mentioned in the social or entertainment news media.

A Quick Guide Into Why Black Adam Flopped So Hard

Joker is really the only movie out of those 6 DC movies released since Marvel Phase 3 ended that really did well. If you remove that one from the comparison I did earlier (for example by starting the comparison a little later, cause Joker was the first DC movie chronologically speaking in my earlier economic comparison), you get these numbers (in millions):

Total budget DC: 867 (+60 if you count the increased Black Adam budget)
ww gross: 1693
ROI: 195% (that's flop territory; 183% if you count the increased Black Adam budget)

Marvel remains at 403% ROI (above average territory, with larger numbers, i.e. more total revenue and total profits in absolute numbers over the same timeperiod, especially if you remove Joker from the comparison and thus start in 2020 for the DC movies, more in line with the first phase 4 Marvel movie in 2021; you could start with the first DC movie in 2021 as well to make it even more the same timeperiod, cause this actually shows that Marvel made more money in a shorter time period with more movies.)

So remove Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 from the comparison as well to start in 2021. Then the numbers for DC are:

budget: 585 (+60 B.A.)
gross: 1326
ROI: 227% (still near flop territory; 206% if you count the increased Black Adam budget, placing it within flop territory)

So on average, since 2021, DC hasn't been nearly as succesful economically as Marvel (still at 403% ROI since 2021). Marvel is still winning. Even Wakanda Forever at 323% ROI is still winning over the average of DC movies since 2021.

originally posted by: whereislogic
...cause this actually shows that Marvel made more money in a shorter time period with more movies.)

edit: Technically of course, Marvel released the same amount of movies in the same timeperiod as DC, since 2019 (or since Phase 3 ended). Namely 6. As per my initial comparison.

I was just talking (thinking) about what was released since 2021 there, when Marvel's first Phase 4 movie was released (cause I was doing a different comparison there).

a reply to: whereislogic

Okay good point.

a reply to: American-philosopher

honestly don't understand how adults aren't tired of these superhero and comic movies.

i love scifi but can we take a break from super hero's and maybe start making some more movies like contact, arrival, dark skies, matrix 1 , etc

if the woke crap isn't enough to kill the movie experience the super hero 5000th revision sequel will get you.

The only good part about Love and Thunder were the goats.

I've forgotten everything else about that travesty.

a reply to: interupt42

I agree, I would like to see some original properties and ideas for movies come out. But I dont believe thats where hollywood thinks the money is at.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

I will say that maybe the setup for Hercules to be Thor's next nemesis wasnt that bad. Now that would probably be a good spin off thing for disney plus would be to set up Hercules. and maybe turn him into a badass. That would maybe raise your interest level to say Oh that could be interesting Hercules vs Thor. But there probably not going to do that.

originally posted by: whereislogic
...
Eternals (M)
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (M)
Black Adam (DC) / Spider-Man: No Way Home (M)
The Joker (DC)
Thor: Love and Thunder (M) / Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (M)
Wonder Woman 1984 (DC) / The Suicide Squad (DC)
Black Widow (M) / The Batman (DC)
Birds of Prey (DC)

Looks like Marvel is winning for me. But I have to point out that starting with Eternals, I do not consider any of these movies to be (very) good (that's also why I separated Zack Snyder's Justice League, cause that one is quite good). On a scale of 1 to 10 (like IMDB), I'd say Eternals is about a 6, the next one a 5.5, the next line 5, etc. Incidentally, that's 6 DC movies and 6 Marvel movies, making for a good comparison.

Average Marvel rating: 4.6
Average DC rating: 3.7 (3.66667)

For comparison, Zack Snyder's Justice League is at least an 8.5 for me. Infinity War: 9.5, Endgame: 9.

Guardians of the Galaxy (8.5)
Thor: Ragnarok (8.5)
The Avengers (8)
Thor: Dark World (7.9)
Justice League 2017 (7.9)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (7.8)
Age of Ultron (7.7)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (7.6)
Aquaman (7.5)
Civil War (7.5)
Thor (7.4)
Captain Marvel (7.3)
Iron Man (7.2)
Iron Man 3 (7.1)
Iron Man 2 (7)
Shazam! (6.9)
Man of Steel (6.8)
Doctor Strange (6.7)
The Incredible Hulk (6.6)
Suicide Squad (6.5)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (6)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (5.5)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (5)
Captain America: The First Avenger (4.5)
Ant-Man (4.5)
Spider-Man Homecoming (4.5)
Black Panther (4)
Wonder Woman (4)

I'm changing my ratings a bit cause I was a bit harsh on the newer movies, and then I had to fit them in the way I described them in comparison to the other movies, which was a bit exaggerated for especially The Batman (which was disappointing but not as bad as Black Widow; also I recently watched some of the Marvel movies up to Thor: Ragnarok so far, realizing I liked some movies more than I remembered when I made the comment above). This time I'm making one list for all movies (except Wakanda Forever which I still haven't seen), I'll bold the changes:

Infinity War (9.5)
Endgame (9)
Thor: Ragnarok (8.9)
Zack Snyder's Justice League (8.5)
Guardians of the Galaxy (8.5)
The Avengers (8)
Thor: Dark World (7.9)
Justice League 2017 (7.9)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (7.8)
Age of Ultron (7.7)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (7.6)
Aquaman (7.5)
Civil War (7.5)
Thor (7.4)
Captain Marvel (7.3)
Iron Man (7.2)
Iron Man 3 (7.1)
Iron Man 2 (7)
Shazam! (6.9)
Man of Steel (6.8)
Doctor Strange (6.7)
The Incredible Hulk (6.6)
Suicide Squad (6.5)
Eternals (6.5)
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (6.4)
Black Adam (6.3)
Spider-Man: No Way Home (6.2)
Joker (6.1)
The Batman (6)
Thor: Love and Thunder (6)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (6)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (5.9)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (5.8)
Captain America: The First Avenger (5.7)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (5.6)
Ant-Man (5.5)
Spider-Man Homecoming (5.4)
Black Panther (5.3)
Wonder Woman (5.2)
The Suicide Squad (5.1)
Wonder Woman 1984 (5)
Black Widow (5)
Birds of Prey (2)

Average Marvel rating since Phase 3 ended (except Wakanda Forever): 6 (all movies: 6.9)
Average DC rating since Phase 3 ended (not counting Zack Snyder's Justice League): 5.1 (all movies, counting Justice League only once, using the highest rating: 6.1)

So for me, both Marvel and DC movies are on the decline. But even the new Marvel movies are on average still on par with the average for all DC movies to date (6 vs 6.1). That may change once I've seen Wakanda Forever.

I have to point out again though, that my ratings are strongly affected by the amount of sci-fi elements in the movie, since that's my favorite genre (other planets, space + spaceships, sci-fi gadgets, equipment and weapons, and abilities that require expensive special effects rather than melee fightscenes; I do like my eye-candy). The ratings are also affected by the reality that the writing for these modern blockbusters are so heavily affected by political agendas and propaganda of all sorts, ideological, religious, philosophical and pseudoscientific (as in the promotion of evolutionary philosophies and myths for example), so I'm more in it for the eye-candy than the plot (or dialogues) anyway. Sometimes they do hit the right snare though:

edit: having another look, I want to put Wonder Woman at 5.7, then The Suicide Squad at 5.2 and Wonder Woman 1984 at 5.1 to fill that gap and to put that last one just above Black Widow (cause it has more eye-candy, and the cool fight music). But then I have to recalculate my averages.

But yeah, that's the best thing about that movie series (in combination with the right scenes that is, since the theme song brings those action scenes to life, and it's done better in the first Wonder Woman movie, timingwise in particular, or the timing of the music fits better with what's on screen, not sure how best to describe what I mean).

The Wonder Woman theme also seems to work better in Zack Snyder's Justice League than Wonder Woman 1984. Oh no, I think it's this scene I'm thinking of where it's really that combo with introducing Wonder Woman as a character in the scene with that iconic theme (Batman v Superman scene):

Love that intro.

Watching Black Panther now, I also want to swap it around with The Suicide Squad in my rating list.

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever : 3.5

a reply to: [post=26875726]whereislogic[/post

its tie between birds of prey and wakanda forever.

Birds of prey made sense right? its been a while since I seen it. But there is no way someone can say Wakanda Forever made sense.

Why would you risk being seen in public if the wakandans were doing what you wanted them to do and capturing the scientist. but then you threaten the queen if she says she will go public?

a reply to: whereislogic

3.5 is really kind of you

originally posted by: American-philosopher
a reply to: whereislogic

3.5 is really kind of you

Yeah, I even considered giving it a 4 for the eye-candy (CGI), but I realized I just didn't care enough about it to really enjoy the heavy CGI scenes.

My updated Marvel and DC rating (raising most ratings in the middle mostly, and after just having watched Man of Steel and realizing it was better than I remembered):

Avengers: Infinity War (9.3)
Avengers: Endgame (9)
Thor: Ragnarok (8.7)
Zack Snyder's Justice League (8.6)
Guardians of the Galaxy (8.5)
The Avengers (8.4)
Justice League 2017 (8)
Thor: Dark World (7.9)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (7.8)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (7.8)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (7.8)
Captain America: Civil War (7.7)
Iron Man (7.6)
Aquaman (7.5)
Thor (7.5)
Captain Marvel (7.5)
Iron Man 3 (7.4)
Iron Man 2 (7.3)
Man of Steel (7.3)
Doctor Strange (7.2)
The Incredible Hulk (7.2)
Suicide Squad (7.2)
Eternals (7.2)
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (7.1)
Black Adam (7.1)
Shazam! (7)
Spider-Man: No Way Home (7)
Joker (7)
The Batman (6.9)
Thor: Love and Thunder (6.9)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (6.8)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (6.7)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (6.6)
Captain America: The First Avenger (6.5)
Wonder Woman (6.4)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (6.3)
Ant-Man (6.2)
The Suicide Squad (6.1)
Spider-Man Homecoming (6)
Black Panther (5.2)
Wonder Woman 1984 (5.1)
Black Widow (5)
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (3.5)
Birds of Prey (2)

originally posted by: American-philosopher
a reply to: [post=26875726]whereislogic[/post

its tie between birds of prey and wakanda forever.

The thing wakanda has over birds of prey is that birds of prey is a much cheaper movie (84.5M budget vs 250M). So at least there's some more eye candy in wakanda.

You can make a decent movie with a 'low' budget, as can be seen from Joker, but if you have a 'low' budget movie and the plot is uninteresting or poorly written as well, as in the case of birds of prey, that's 2 strikes against the movie. ('low' in comparison of course)

edit regarding previous comment: it was Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Ultimate Edition) that I was rating, which is half an hour longer than the normal cut. But it's mostly the final fight with Wonder Woman showing up as well that makes me want to give it a 7.8 rating (the scene I shared earlier in this thread with the Wonder Woman theme and introduction).

OK, I've made some changes again to my rating list after watching Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman, both being a bit less entertaining than I remembered. I also lowered The Incredible Hulk quite a bit because I had it a bit overrated before (more based on a desire for more Hulk movies, with Mark Ruffalo, quite enjoying the Hulk's appearance in Thor: Ragnarok and one of the main reasons that one is rated so high in my list). I also realized that I enjoyed the Dr. Strange sequel a little bit more than the first movie, so the changes now reflect that. As a bonus, Captain America: Winter Soldier can move up another 0.1 points, it's been rising steadily from my very first list in this thread where it was a bit underrated. The first changes start after (changes are bolded):

Man of Steel (7.3)
Eternals (7.2)
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (7.1)
Black Adam (7.1)
Doctor Strange (7)
Shazam! (7)
Spider-Man: No Way Home (7)
Joker (7)
The Batman (6.9)
Thor: Love and Thunder (6.9)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (6.9)
The Incredible Hulk (6.8)
Suicide Squad (6.8)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (6.7)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (6.6)
Captain America: The First Avenger (6.5)
Ant-Man (6.4)
The Suicide Squad (6.3)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (6.2)
Wonder Woman (6.1)
Spider-Man Homecoming (6)
Black Panther (5.2)
Wonder Woman 1984 (5.1)
Black Widow (5)
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (3.5)
Birds of Prey (2)

Remember, the reason why in my list some of the newer movies are rated considerably higher than IMDB for example, is because I'm a Sci-Fi fan and I like my eye-candy. Any part of the plot not taking place on earth, or anything heavy on the eye-candy (regarding abilities for example, as in Eternals, but there it's also the cliffhanger for a sequel that intrigues me, with the huge celestial showing up), gets extra bonuspoints. That's also why I like the Dr. Strange sequel a bit more than the first one, since alternate universe earths feels almost like another planet. Thor: Love and Thunder is mostly based off-earth. Never mind the mediocre plot for these movies, for me that's the same for most of these movies, the thing that differentiates them (especially in the middle) is the amount of eye-candy, and for me, the amount of sci-fi elements. On rare occasion that I can't decide which movie to put above another, I even sometimes just look at the budget. Although, I've only done that once just now in this section regarding these 4 movies:

The Suicide Squad (6.3) (185M)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (6.2) (200M)
Wonder Woman (6.1) (150M)
Spider-Man Homecoming (6) (175M)

I compared these 4 cause I wasn't sure in what order to put them, it made me put Shang-Chi above Wonder Woman, but because I was totally uninterested in this Shang-Chi character, or the plot, The Suicide Squad is still above that (but it's been a while since I've seen it, I'm now doing the DC series and have just finished Wonder Woman). As mentioned on page 1, I never was that much into Spider-Man, but I'm still more interested in Spider-Man as a superhero than Shang-Chi, but on that occasion, the eye-candy reflected in the budget wins over again. I have thought about swapping Wonder Woman with Spider-Man though, but the first Spider-Man movie sort of works as a baseline for me for movies I could stomach, or at least somewhat enjoy; the lowest rated Marvel movie that didn't suck (like the ones below 6, where the gap is now). I guess I could put both movies at 6, but I like building up with 0.1 increments to the first Captain America movie at 6.5. Which is also a nice mid-point to base other movies' ratings off. It feels like it's a 6.5.

Made a new Marvel vs DC rating list:

Avengers: Infinity War (9.3)
Avengers: Endgame (9)
Thor: Ragnarok (8.7)
Guardians of the Galaxy (8.6)
The Avengers (8.5)
Zack Snyder's Justice League (8.2)
Justice League 2017 (8)
Thor: Dark World (7.9)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (7.8)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (7.8)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Ultimate Edition) (7.8)
Captain America: Civil War (7.7)
Iron Man (7.6)
Guardians of the Galaxy 3 (7.5)
Thor (7.5)
Aquaman (7.4)
Iron Man 3 (7.3)
Iron Man 2 (7.2)
Man of Steel (7.1)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (7)
Captain Marvel (7)
Spider-Man: No Way Home (7)
The Incredible Hulk (6.9)
Joker (6.8)
The Batman (6.7)
Black Adam (6.6)
Captain America: The First Avenger (6.5)
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (6.5)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (6.4)
Shazam! Fury of the Gods (6.3)
Shazam! (6.3)
Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania (6.2)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (6.1)
The Flash (6)
Doctor Strange (6)
Ant-Man (6)
Suicide Squad (6)
Eternals (5.9)
Thor: Love and Thunder (5.8)
Wonder Woman (5.8)
Spider-Man Homecoming (5.7)
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (5.6)
The Suicide Squad (5.5)
Black Panther (5)
Wonder Woman 1984 (4.5)
Black Widow (4)
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (4)
Blue Beetle (3)
Birds of Prey (2)

Total Marvel: 220 / 32 = 6.9 (Infinity Saga: 167.5 / 23 = 7.3) (the rest: 52.5 / 9 = 5.8)
Total DC: 96 / 16 = 6 (Before 2020: 55.2 / 8 = 6.9) (After 2019, excl ZSJL: 40.6 / 8 = 5.1 ; incl ZSJL: 48.8 / 9 = 5.4)