Cobra Maneuver: The Truth.

Well, of course those facts are true... I'am already a bit tired at them... But still what you say about "how bad the russians are" you can't prove it...We'd have to put the Russians and americas at eachother... Good question tough...

In my opinion, it also comes down to how good the pilots are...

[edit on 15-6-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

USAF has better tech more advance support systems and better jets, don't know about the Russian pilots so I am not going comment on them.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
USAF has better tech more advance support systems and better jets, don't know about the Russian pilots so I am not going comment on them.

Then you might want to rebuke your statement.

Because by stating that the USAF has better everything, that was commenting on the Russian pilot's and their technological capabilities, remember, you said "Better".

Shattered OUT...

Where did I say better everything? Please show me where on my post I said better everything.

USAF has better tech more advance support systems and better jets, don't know about the Russian pilots so I am not going comment on them.

There you got you're "better comment"...

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

I listed the things that were better, I made it specific of what I was talking about. If I had said better everything and end my post without going into detail then it would have included the pilots, but I id not do that I listed the things that were better.

in some areas the americans have better tech and some the russians.

american. stealth (sexly planes)

russians. engine radar??(stealth spy mentioned some new 5th gen radar). engine vectoring tech. air to air missiles.

but american pilots a Defiantly better trained then a average russian.

Russians. engine radar??(stealth spy mentioned some new 5th gen radar). engine vectoring tech. air to air missiles.

Well, never take Stealth Spy seriously, he's wrong over half the time.

The best radar in the world is the APG-77 second gen AESA radar on the F-22, which also has TVC. And western missiles are generally superior to their russian counterparts.

No, Russian missiles are generally superior to Western missiles, at least for the past decade or so. The R-73 outranges, outmanoeuvres, and outseeks all but the new AIM-9 series. The R-77 outranges and outmanoeuvres the AIM-120 AMRAAM though I don't know about the seeker.

Wait, let me predict what Hockeyguy is going to say next

Those missles have never been proven in combat! If so your statement is totally void!

Yeah.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Where did I say better everything? Please show me where on my post I said better everything.

Well, when I stated everything, I was referring to when you said America has better (list of things). Those things are what I consider "What counts in an Air Force", so to me that's everything important.

Look, America and Russia have their strong points.

Shattered OUT...

Well the brain flying the aircraft is half the package cant have one and not the other you need both good pilots and god airplanes.

Really the Aim-120D is much more capable missile than he C version, I think you should check it out before you say its outperformed by the Russian long rage missiles.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Really the Aim-120D is much more capable missile than he C version, I think you should check it out before you say its outperformed by the Russian long rage missiles.

Who is this targeted to? The person saying that the Russian missiles can outperform right?

Well, I heard that the 120 is better than most, if not all Russian missiles in its class.

I believe it too.

Shattered OUT...

I have heard alot of 'talk' and confident bragging here on the famed "cobra maneuver" and the "super-cobra" by the Russians, who brag about this also, Sukhois's (Su-37's, etc).
I wish to discuss some facts that illustrate the "cobra's" ineffectiveness.....

First, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" can only be done without any armament and with less than 50% or half the fuel tanks.....

Second, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" performed in a wrong way can cause serious damages and in fact, has attributed to numerous deaths of pilots at 15g.

Thirdly, the "cobra maneuver" and "super cobra" is only effective if the interceptor is really close and does not pick it up ....

Fourth, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" slows the Sukhoi down so much that if the interceptor spots the maneuver early enough and adjusts there is absolutely no way that the Sukhoi can survive.

Fifth, the only air maneuvers that the Sukhoi's can truly claim as a "no one else can do" is the "Super Cobra" and "Kulbit".
The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver".

Sixth, the Sukhoi's can also do a 120 degree AOA (angle of attack) which they also brag about but fail to comment on how long the aircraft can hold the position. The 120 AOA has only been proven to have been done a few times and only for a few seconds. And that is not opinion...thats simply fact.
On the other hand.......the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's. This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do. Also, the AOA for the F-22 is unlimited even though it has not been tested outside the wind tunnel tests beyond 80 degrees + AOA. Here is a picture of a F-22 doing such a 70 degree AOA upside down. To confirm this, look at the engine heat:
www.codeonemagazine.com...


First:the cobra can be performed with normal A-to-A fuel and weapons, but not recomended.

Second: I have not heard of numerous deaths by do ing such a simple manoever in Mig/Sukhoi.

Third: this manoeuver can be performed slightly different in that the aircraft reaches 180 degree AOA alowing the pilot to "shoot behind".

Fourth: The cobra slows airspeed dramatically which in air combat can be very bennificial forcing the aggressor to overshoot. Standard practice if you have someone "on your six".

Fifth: Sukhoi and Mig can also do double (or more) kulbit, forwards or backwards. Fly with AOA 180 degress, 90 degress eventually falls to zero airspeed so it cant be said that the AOA is 90. at zero speed these aircraft can "stand on tail" until the fuel runs out. And they will do a lot more besides. Keep watching upcoming airshows.

Sixth: 120 degree AOA is difficult to do because the speed drops to zero very quickly and without reaction control to hold the nose up, it will drop.

Also.....both Mig and Sukhoi will flat spin in horisontal flight while being "fully" controllable. The Mig29OVT, Sukhoi 27/37 are the most manoeuverable aircraft I have ever flown (3000+hours) and in all flight regimes they are very predictable. Also, please remember these aircraft first flew aroung 1980 and the are only slightly modified in their current form. I love to fly them.

Originally posted by pavel5150
I have heard alot of 'talk' and confident bragging here on the famed "cobra maneuver" and the "super-cobra" by the Russians, who brag about this also, Sukhois's (Su-37's, etc).

Pavel, I had a hard time discerning what you wrote and what was Seekerof's original post which you were commenting on.
Using the quote function is very helpful for those reading your posts.

Regards~

Originally posted by pavel5150
I love to fly them.

And you would be? It is legal in Russia to give name, rank and serial number is it not?

Sorry for the one line but I had to ask...

Quite a few things wrong in this thread.

Flanker weight - already debunked.

Compressor stall - simply not true, at least, not anymore. If there were stalls, how come the OVT etc can continue to perform manouvres immediately after doing cobras and kubits?

15g in cobra manouvres - again, simply not true. Centrifugal acceleration is given by a = (V^2)/r

If the radius of the cobra is 200m, and the airspeed 150 kts (77 m/s approx), that gives an acceleration of 30m/s^2, or just over 3g.

You'd have to increase the speed to around 300kts constant and hold the turn radius to get over 10g.



Also, there is no way on earth any aircraft can sustain over +60 degrees AoA. Negative 60 is possible, positive 60 is impossible.


The lattice control surfaces on the R-77 give it better kinematics than all AMRAAM versions prior to the AIM120D.


I would also have thought with the F-22 gets silly number of kills thread still on the front page, no-one would have said WVR combat is dead... but someone did.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
Quite a few things wrong in this thread.


Also, there is no way on earth any aircraft can sustain over +60 degrees AoA. Negative 60 is possible, positive 60 is impossible.

So are you saying that the test pilots and engineers misinterpreted their findings during the test flights studying the high AOA envelope capabilities for the F-22?

Originally posted by pavel5150
The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver".

The F-22 demonstrated a 120 degree Cobra a few months ago in an airshow.

Originally posted by JFrazier
The F-22 demonstrated a 120 degree Cobra a few months ago in an airshow.

It also demonstrated the "Kulbit", and if I may add both of these were done with a full internal weapons and fuel load.