Cobra Maneuver: The Truth.

Originally posted by mikromarius
I bet the new Eurofighter busts both your proud arses. As it is built to be unstabile (it uses serious computer stabilisation) it can do maneuvers no other aircrafts can match.

And when will they invent that internal-gravity-stabiliser that will eventually eliminate all G-force trouble?

No matter what anyone says, the cobra maneuver is way cool and has an extremely effective shock effect. air to air combat is very much about psyche and mental strength. If you scare your opponent by doing some really neck-braking turns that demonstrates air superiourity and at the same time being able to fire off those cannons, the fight is more or less won.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by mikromarius]

Proud...hehe.
I agree the "cobra/super-cobra" maneuver is a amazing maneuver, but I don't see it being applied as a air dominance or even a "fear factor."
The fight, in "real world" a2a combat, is the first to detect and fire is pretty much the victor. BVR virtually rules the skies.....

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Proud...hehe.

I agree the "cobra/super-cobra" maneuver is a amazing maneuver, but I don't see it being applied as a air dominance or even a "fear factor."
The fight, in "real world" a2a combat, is the first to detect and fire is pretty much the victor. BVR virtually rules the skies.....

Yes range and modern weapons systems are by far the new high in a2a combat, but when everything is fired off, and nothing has hit, those cool cannon maneuvers are quite good to have. Don't you think?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by Seekerof
Proud...hehe.

I agree the "cobra/super-cobra" maneuver is a amazing maneuver, but I don't see it being applied as a air dominance or even a "fear factor."
The fight, in "real world" a2a combat, is the first to detect and fire is pretty much the victor. BVR virtually rules the skies.....

Yes range and modern weapons systems are by far the new high in a2a combat, but when everything is fired off, and nothing has hit, those cool cannon maneuvers are quite good to have. Don't you think?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Hehe, sure is Mikromatius. Your point well taken. Though I find it difficult to see any aircraft avoiding being "splashed" with respect to current a2a missile technology. Whats the actaul chances of a 'targeted' aircraft avoiding 2 AIM-9x's or any other very good a2a missiles?
Point taken again Mikromatius.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Whats the actaul chances of a 'targeted' aircraft avoiding 2 AIM-9x's or any other very good a2a missiles?
Point taken again Mikromarius.

Well I'm not very much into weapons systems at all, I still find the good old bow and arrow amusing, and a certain image of an Iraqi oldtimer with a muschedunder which he had alledgely shot down an F-117 with comes to mind. And you'll need AWACS support for those new systems, don't you? What if you jet around in an F-22 stealth armed to the teeth with state of the art weaponry of the kind you mention and suddenly the AWACS goes down? What do you do when your radar says a good old dogfight is at hand and the Russian flares off all your sidewinders and starts doing something you've seen before. I'd say the Russian has an advantage with his super cobra acrobacy. Unless a Typhoon comes to the rescue of course

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Euro-Fighter/EF-2000 "Typhoon" is a nice piece...beautiful craft.
Admittedly, the Mig-37 Berkut is simply one gorgeous lady......*drool*

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 23-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
The maneuver can claim to be "this and that" but it amounts to no real consequence in an actual a2a combat situation. The US is building aircraft, F-22 and F-35, that are made to avoid such a2a engagements to the point of being BVR engagements. I hope that "cobra" and "super cobra" maneuver can save them from a a2a missile such as the US AIM-9x which can literally do a 90 degree turn to hit its target......Oppps....splash another......

Haven't we heard that before in the early 60s? Ask Vietnam vets who flew F-4s how many tons of curses they put on the heads of the "smart guys" that didn't install the guns in their aircraft just because "modern air combat will be fought BVR". We must be a very stupid nation if we continue to invest money into supermaneuverable fighters in our bad economic situation while we have excellent A-A missiles in our inventory.

It always amuses me how much faith Americans put in all those "magic gizmos" of theirs. There's a simple law of the probability theory saying that the more complex system is, the more it is prone to failures. The ultimate weapon should be effective, versatile, reliable, simple and cheap. Just like Kalashnikov's rifle. Will your BVR wonderfigters perform as well if some high brass comes up with the ROE that demand positive visual ID of the target as it was in Vietnam?

BTW you could find a better picture than this one. That Fulcrum was lost in midair collision with another MiG-29 during the airshow at Fairford, UK. Fortunately nobody was hurt. The most funny thing about it is that when one of the MiG pilots have landed and unstrapped his parachute harness, he immediately pulled out a cigarette pack and lit up a cigarette as if he did such collisions twice a day! Not many videos of that crash show it, but that is my favorite moment.

Russky........
I reckon I could have but it served the point. You point out some good information but again I see another person taking this as a "bravado" statement or a Russian-bashing........
The topic addressed the maneuvers of said aircraft and the implications of them in a "real" world a2a combat envirinment.

Care to give your specific opinion verses criticism. The initial topic started with factual information. Can you elaborate on that info. If the Russian aircraft can perform these maneuvers with full or partial copmplements of fuel or weaponry, what is the "real" world implications or the feasiability of anyone having to worry about seeing it in a a2a combat situation in the effect that the said maneuvers are done at very slow speeds (ie: approx. 8+ miles per hr)?


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 23-7-2003 by Seekerof]

do you, really, think that cobra and super cobra are the ONLY weapons russian fighters have, mr. Seekerof? don't play stupid - this manuevers (not shure if i wrote it right) are just an airshow "try to do after me" stuff... not more... hope you never will be in cockpit of MiG-31's poor target far beyond visual range )
nothing personal

International incident brewing.

"Detente".

* Leaves. *

vi moi droog, meesha, nyet?
tvoi Engliski yzik
nazdarovaya...

Originally posted by Meesha
do you, really, think that cobra and super cobra are the ONLY weapons russian fighters have, mr. Seekerof? don't play stupid - this manuevers (not shure if i wrote it right) are just an airshow "try to do after me" stuff... not more... hope you never will be in cockpit of MiG-31's poor target far beyond visual range

)
nothing personal

Good point!

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Meesha
do you, really, think that cobra and super cobra are the ONLY weapons russian fighters have, mr. Seekerof? don't play stupid - this manuevers (not shure if i wrote it right) are just an airshow "try to do after me" stuff... not more... hope you never will be in cockpit of MiG-31's poor target far beyond visual range

)
nothing personal

Nothing personal taken Mr. Meesha...
I'm certainly glad you admitted what was other-wise obvious to many.....the maneuvers has no value other than "air show" bravado. Being it has been done at virtually every airshow since its inception, the aircraft(s) can only perform this at very low --- near stall -- speeds. I will admit that I recently found out that these aircraft can do it with partial loads. This was a mistake on my part for stating that they could only do them with no weapons payload and less than half fuel tanks.

I do find it a bit humorous that you conclude that you hope I am not in a aircraft cockpit that is being locked on by a Mig-31....if I misunderstood what you meant, please feel free to explain...I had a little difficulty understanding the last bit you said. As to the Russian's having other "abilities" other than these maneuvers at their disposal....all I can say, is don't state what is otherwise obvious. If you wish to engage in discussion on the particulars of what "other" things the Russians have at their disposal, by all means, bring them up and lets discuss them.

As I can see by the "patting of the back" that a couple posters gave you, I am assuming that many contend that I was erring in bringing this subject to light.

I'm assuming that me stating that I was not belittling Russian aircraft nor the maneuver in general was obviously missed! I brought this subject up to engage in discussion of the application of this maneuver(s) in light of current a2a "real" world environments.....and have yet to have anyone to fully answer the questions. As par, people continue to mis-read this topic and have used it to engage me on "bravado's."

No problem, perhaps someone will see the topic for its value and for the questions I have put forth. I do find it a bit odd that many that have claimed otherwise have yet to post and that many that are posting here, other than "patting others on the back," are also yet to post to the questions asked. Again, no matter, I will certainly entertain any opinions to this topic and reply to them likewise.

regards
seekerof

this manuevers are almost show oriented (but who knows what the hell can be in real combat), BUT.... this just simply prooves a fantastic controlability of the planes at extremely critical flight situations, where most of the other planes will fail ... that's THE job of demonstration pilots, and most famous aerobatic teams in Russia are really from Ministry of Defence aircraft DEMONSTRATION team (as well as from test pilots, who also can fly f***n' good)... so if they can demonstrate without any problems such figures - it prooves just how good control of aircraft is, not more.. and if other pilots can't add such tricks in their bag - what it says? I hope You catch the idea
as for angle of attack - just talked with ex-Swifts (MiG29 aerobatic team, my instructor really) about angles - he don't believe about 60 degree angle in horisontal flight... around 35 degrees for Mig-29 in around 160-180 km\h in horisontal flight - just fact ... as long as fuel will remain for normal landing... have no idea about thrust vectored engines - must talk with pilots who flyed it(need some time) ... and will see in any airshow , where f22 will demonstrate it's capabilities...
maybe some time american pilot on any aircraft will copy subj of topic
and as for other stuff - to pilots at BVR - missiles will decide, just imagine what can be after that if both planes avoid and go dogfight? I will not give a cent for a life of poor target of Russian pilot... sorry.
and what I said earlier - it's not Russian words - There are only 2 types of aircraft - fighters and targets

BTW I've seen onboard video made by the pilots of the Shipborne Air Regiment. There several pilots did Cobra about a dozen times quite easily. Well, these pilots are the elite, but they are just ordinary fighter pilots, not test pilots or a special aerobatic team. So it is not something that a trained pilot can't do.

And Cobra is not the only "magic" that Sukhoi aircraft can do. If you could only see the whole aerobatic sequences demonstrated by thrust vectored Sukhoi at the last Moscow Airspasce Salon... That bird can literally turn around its tail.

Thank you Meesha.
That was informative and well said.
I would enjoy talking more of aircraft with you and your opinions on them. I thank you again for commenting on this as you have.

I look forward to further conversations.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Russky
BTW I've seen onboard video made by the pilots of the Shipborne Air Regiment. There several pilots did Cobra about a dozen times quite easily. Well, these pilots are the elite, but they are just ordinary fighter pilots, not test pilots or a special aerobatic team. So it is not something that a trained pilot can't do.

And Cobra is not the only "magic" that Sukhoi aircraft can do. If you could only see the whole aerobatic sequences demonstrated by thrust vectored Sukhoi at the last Moscow Airspasce Salon... That bird can literally turn around its tail.

I believe you Russky. I thank you for commenting as you have. I was merely trying to get everyones opinion as to the maneuver(s) and what applications they would have in a "real" world a2a environment verses current aircraft designs leaning towards BVR.

Thanks.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 24-7-2003 by Seekerof]

You're welcome

For those who claim that US aircraft cannot "cobra maneuver".......

"Flying Beyond the Limiter"
Link:
www.codeonemagazine.com...

May have to download this...I did anyhow.....
Watch and wail:
Link:www.voodoo.cz...

And........
4 videos for those that falsely claim canard equipped aircraft or the Mig-29, SU-27, S-37, SU-30, SU-35, SU-37, are the most maneuverable aircraft in the world.

Links:
home.flash.net...
home.cinci.rr.com...
home.cinci.rr.com...
home.cinci.rr.com...





regards
seekerof

[Edited on 11-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by Fury
I wanted to check it out.. pretty cool.

www.aeronautics.ru...

Thats an informative article Fury.

Personnally, the "cobra" maneuver looks nothing more than a "stall" maneuver with a high AOA...and as applied to the Mig-29, etc., that AOA can be 120 degrees. Again, a maneuver that very few pilots can actually do safely, without tearing the plane apart and killing themselves in the process. Hell, a F-14 can do that and do it in a 60 degree AOA.

The maneuver can claim to be "this and that" but it amounts to no real consequence in an actual a2a combat situation. The US is building aircraft, F-22 and F-35, that are made to avoid such a2a engagements to the point of being BVR engagements. I hope that "cobra" and "super cobra" maneuver can save them from a a2a missile such as the US AIM-9x which can literally do a 90 degree turn to hit its target......Oppps....splash another......

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

That again was a photo from Fairford was it not ? - the planes were doing "Chase Loops" not the cobra - hence the czech livery

i hated this kind of manouver when i played the Ace Combat series... its annoying, u dont hit the enemy in a dogfight

*edited cuz misspell of manouver

[Edited on 12-10-2003 by solomon6777]

Originally posted by solomon6777
i hated this kind of manouver when i played the Ace Combat series... its annoying, u dont hit the enemy in a dogfight

*edited cuz misspell of manouver

[Edited on 12-10-2003 by solomon6777]

please dont disscuse games in these threads.
this is the second post in a row i came up on with you diccusing games.
this is for serious people that have something to say.