Creationism vs Evolution - How old are We?

I would say the vast majority of people subscribe to the idea that the Earth is many millions/billions years old. After becoming a little more religious, the theory of the Earth being approx. 6500 years old is interesting to me.

There are some great documentaries that debate this issue from the creationism side, always religious based. One great Example is Genesis: Paradise Lost. Another, Is Genesis History.

Also, I read a lot of books, generally older books, 100+ years old. I am currently reading a book called Ancient History from 1870, by Lord. In this book they push a lot of narratives in the Apocrypha, going deep into family lines throughout history. Moses, Noah, Nebuchadnezzar, and others. It delves into Enoch, Ruth, Jubilee, etc. That was strange to me considering that was not suppose to be part of canon at the time. The point is, this book also goes against the idea of evolution.

In most arguments I get, people will mention dinosaurs and say, well the creation side never mentions dinosaurs, and that is correct, because that was not a term until 1841. But there is a lot of mention of dragons, giants and other oddities.

Then I get arguments that, well look at the layers in the ground, "there is no way those can be created in just a few thousand years, water needs time to erode." Massive amounts of time, but that is also not true. Mt St. Helens changed the landscape extremely rapidly in 1980 compared to today. What the creation side often says is that "instead of little events changing the landscape over many, many years - that it was changed very rapidly over massive events."

I have heard every argument and story on evolution, which always boggles me because there is no "middle" in any evolutionary cycle that is present today. It's a huge hole in that argument. If we derive from apes, where are the half ape, half men. Why have turtles, sturgeons, barely changed? Can you adapt to an environment and not evolve? I think so.

The last few years, I have seen how much science, literature, politicians, and every other major institution has lied for their benefit. This has allowed me to look at some of the information that our societies have proclaimed as settled again, and view them as unsettled in my mind. Part of me believes there is a hidden history that is, well, being hidden from us. I make no claims otherwise, I don't know honestly if that is true, I will likely never know and neither will any of us.

With that said...

Both sides have holes, I am not proclaiming anything here. I would like to see a spirited debate though and information from both sides. Let's hear your opinions, and don't hold back. I appreciate all who reply.

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

I gotta side with isotope decay rates. Pretty reliable timekeepers.

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

Ok, now I know I am going to get absolutely murdered for this view, but who cares I will throw it at you anyways.

I have always wondered how different races on this planet had such different features and skin tones. We are being told that after thousands of years that climate had a hand in these variations. Now how if instead of every one starting out on this planet that there actually was a type of seeding going on from different galaxies and planets.

Maybe planet destruction, by war or scientists messing with bad things, or maybe it was a choice to move here.

If nothing else, I think this idea would make a great idea for a movie.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: AbstractDreamz

I gotta side with isotope decay rates. Pretty reliable timekeepers.

Why has the Grand Canyon not collapsed in on itself then? Would the wear near the water flow(base) not weaken the lower structure over time and collapse itself inward?

(Again, just playing devils advocate, I don't have an answer here.)

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

Yes! I get to give another geology answer.

I can actually explain that.



It comes down to how water cut through the sedimentary layers.

The Grand Canyon is a child geologically speaking. No more than 70 million years old. Oldest parts coincide with the early uplift of the Colorado Plateau around the time the dinosaurs died out. The newest portions are no more than 6 million years.

It Formed entirely from the process of erosion through billions years of sedimentary layering. All the way down to the basement of granite and schist.

It's a convoluted thing though. The layering of the crust it cut through started being deposited when the area was located adjacent to a tropical southern hemisphere ocean. But they dated all the stidations of the crust just the same. There are precambian rocks and the bulk of it are paleozoic deposits. The sedimentary layers that build up over time. Deposits through eons of continental and environmental shift. It finally started being eroded when earth was almost how it is today.

And because it's mostly sandstone, shale, and limestone, while not the strongest rock, it will only further change by the water that runs down the side or wind that strips it away.

And also rockslides, another product of water and wind erosion.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: AbstractDreamz

Yes! I get to give another geology answer.

I can actually explain that.

It comes down to how water cut through the sedimentary layers.

The grand is a child geologically speaking. No more than 70 million years old. Oldest parts coincide with the uplift of the Colorado Plateau around the time the dinosaurs died out. The newest portions no more than 6 million years.

It Formed entirely from the process of erosion through billions years of sedimentary layering. All the way down to the basement of granite and schist.

It's a convoluted thing though. The layering of the crust it cut through started being deposited when the area was located adjacent to a tropical southern hemisphere ocean. But they dated all the stidations if the crust anyway. There are precambian rocks and the bulk of it are paleozoic deposits. The sedimentary layers that build up over time.

And because it's mostly sandstone, shale, and limestone, while not the strongest rock, it will only further change by the water that runs down the side.

And also rockslides, another product of water and wind erosion.

How many times did water cover the area and recede to create those layers?

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

200,000 Years give or take a Decade .

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

I dont want to do that much on the spot research.

So let's say 525,000,000 years of tectonic shift and crust changes that left several layers of sediment.

You can estimate the age when the different formations were deposited.

When all of these sediments were deposited the elevation of the rim wasn't 9000 ft above sea level. It hadn't even been uplifted as part of the North American Plate yet. Most of the US (today) was near the equator drifting northwest. All major deposits are from different points in history when that part of the crust was at different parts of the planet.

So I'll give you the top layer:

The Kaibab Limestone.

The complex intercalation of carbonate and clastic sediments within the Kaibab Limestone reflects the deposition of sediments within a gently sloping continental margin during a period of frequent, high-frequency sea level changes...

Later research concerning conodonts and associated megafossils obtained from western outcrops of the Fossil Mountain Member indicates that its age extends into the Roadian (latest Early Permian and earliest Middle Permian) age

So the top layer cut of sedimentary rock was deposited at or around sea level around 270 MYA. The layers just get older from there.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: AbstractDreamz

I dont want to do that much on the spot research.

So let's say 525,000,000 years of tectonic shift and crust changes that left several layers of sediment.

You can estimate the age when the different formations were deposited.

When all of these sediments were deposited the elevation of the rim wasn't 9000 ft above sea level. It hadn't even been uplifted as part of the North American Plate yet. It was near the equator drifting northwest. All major deposits are from different points in history when that part of the crust was at different parts of the planet.

So I'll give you the top layer:

The Kaibab Limestone.

The complex intercalation of carbonate and clastic sediments within the Kaibab Limestone reflects the deposition of sediments within a gently sloping continental margin during a period of frequent, high-frequency sea level changes...

Later research concerning conodonts and associated megafossils obtained from western outcrops of the Fossil Mountain Member indicates that its age extends into the Roadian (latest Early Permian and earliest Middle Permian) age

So the top layer cut of sedimentary rock was deposited at or around sea level around 270 MYA. The layers just get older from there.

Who gave you this information? Where did you learn it from? Are you positive it is accurate? How do you explain what happened to Mt. St. Helens region since 1980, as it defies historical calculations.

I think the spirit-soul is eternal.

Only the material bodies can have an age.

And I just read in some science book, we probably have atoms of William Shakespeare, or even a T-Rex in our bodies.

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

I kinda missed your question.

And it's actually really good.

Why don't the sedimentary layers of rock like Calcium Carbonate (limestone) decay within the earth and collapse in.

They do. It erodes on parts exposed to weathering. Most limestone are the argonite or calcite polymorphs of limestone. Put calcite in water and it's gone eventually. Limestone is calcium carbonite in the crystalline form.

But form it into miles upon miles long meters thick sheets and stack them on other sedimentary sheets and it erodes only where exposed to weathering. Otherwise it's quite structurally stable. Limestone as old as 2.7 billion years has been confirmed.

Limestone when exposed to weathering erodes, when exposed to enough pressure and heat becomes a metamorphic rock called marble.

So a better answer is it is collapsing in on itself in the form of constant erosion of points exposed to the elements. The grand canyon will keep weathering away and get wider over time.

And I get my information from geological encyclopedias and what i remember from college years ago. I just like geology for hobby reasons and read a lot about it.

I always say, you're as old as you feel.

If that mean having "hunter-gatherer" hair in the neolithic it's fine with me.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: AbstractDreamz

I kinda missed your question.

And it's actually really good.

Why don't the sedimentary layers of rock like Calcium Carbonate (limestone) decay within the earth and collapse in.

They do. It erodes on parts exposed to weathering. Most limestone are the argonite or calcite polymorphs of limestone. Put calcite in water and it's gone eventually.

But form it into miles upon miles long meters thick sheets and stack them on other sedimentary sheets and it erodes only where exposed to weathering. Otherwise it's quite structurally stable. Limestone as old as 2.7 billion years has been confirmed.

Limestone when exposed to weathering erodes, when exposed to enough pressure and heat becomes a metamorphic rock called marble.

So a better answer is it is collapsing in on itself in the form of constant erosion of points exposed to the elements. The grand canyon will keep weathering away and get wider over time.

And I get my information from geological encyclopedias and what i remember from college years ago. I just like geology for hobby reasons and read a lot about it.

Could a massive global flood cause it?

Looking materially: we are star dust, we are olden.

The nerd who went to Woodstock.

Whatever you believe, every drop of water you ever drank once went through the gut of a dinosaur.

And that's why I drink wine.

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

Well the "youngest layer" of limestone exposed by grand canyon weathering is 270 million years old.

Best map I could find was 260 million years ago. So when that last deposit was layered (Kaibab Formation) it was definitely flood/ocean/seashell deposit adjacent.



And this is where the Grand Canyon was when the oldest sedimentary layers were being deposited.



A more recent Holocene era shortlived flood would not show up in limestone. Maybe in a soil layer. The areas of coastline and continental shelves today will become the weathered limestone layers of millions of years from now.

Earth is awesome at rolling everything over and recycling it. Another mass extinction away from replenishing the petroleum supply in 30 million years.

The Mastodon - actually meaning "nipple-tooth".

Actually, they first assumed it was an underwater sloth that anchored itself with its massive teeth.

The idea that the universe was created in the recent past in 6 literal days isn’t taught in the Bible. And it surely isn’t a belief held by most major “Christian” religions. There are a few extreme fundamentalist Christian religions that teach a rigid belief in the 6 days of creation having to be literal 6 days of everything in the universe having been created, but that is a fringe minority, much like those that still believe the earth is flat.

The 6 days of creation in Genesis 1 are neither 6 literal days, or referring to the creation of the universe. Rather they have to do with the readying of the earth for human habitation and the creation of humankind. The universe and everything in it was already created (verse 1) before the first creative day even began.

originally posted by: AbstractDreamz
I would say the vast majority of people subscribe to the idea that the Earth is many millions/billions years old. After becoming a little more religious, the theory of the Earth being approx. 6500 years old is interesting to me.

The biggest flaw in the argument that the earth is 'only 6500 years old', or that God created the earth in 6 days' is...

How long were those 'days' is God time?

For all we know, the term/word referring to units of time in the original texts - like 'days' or 'years' - could be a day... or a year... or a million or a billion years.

Anyone who claims to know anything about God, or the Bible or anything in it, is just gullible - or lying.

originally posted by: AbstractDreamz
a reply to: Degradation33
How do you explain what happened to Mt. St. Helens region since 1980, as it defies historical calculations.

Can you elaborate? What, precisely, about the Mt St Helens event 'defies historical calculations''?