Fast track NATO membership For Ukraine Like now!

a reply to: TheRedneck

100000000000 Stars for you!
Nail on the head!!!

locals version

foreign version

Both cases, the people chose which umbrella to stand under.

bandera Ukraine hero

a reply to: ScepticScot

They successfully made more countries want to join NATO.

That seems to be true enough.

They have successfully got EU countries to speed up the switch away from fossil fuels.

I thought coal was a fossil fuel? When did that change?

They have sucesfully boosted the arms industry of almost every country (outside russia as no one really wants their stuff anymore).

Was Russia a major arms exporter? When did that start?

I'll admit this conflict has escalated weapons manufacture in the USA. We need them to send to Ukraine because Ukraine has such a strong, capable military without them.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

My previous direct answer

... said nothing about whose soil the troops were on. I didn't ask for the date.

Feel free to apologise at any point.

Are you running for office?

Yes I want peace.

Do you want peace at any price?

Thank you! That's all I asked.

At any price? No, I can't go that far. However, I will point out that I am currently living under an illegal occupation. Sometimes bad things just happen.

Do you think I should take up arms against the current US government?

TheRedneck

Answering they didn't invade until 2 days later is a direct answer. Since you have indicated in other posts you understand how dates work you know that.

So you agree is not as simple just peace or war. Funny how real life isn't as simple as you might want to try making it sound.

If you genuinely think that you are are living under an illegal occupation then absolutely should. We are frequently told on this site that is what the 2nd amendment is for. Don't forget to let us know how that works out for you.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Russia is the second largest arms exporter in the world. ( no prizes for guessing no1).

Since the US had been blowing up stuff made in Russia for decades I am extremely surprised you don't know this.

a reply to: ScepticScot

So you agree is not as simple just peace or war.

Yes, and I never said otherwise. I asked a question (which you answered). Asking a question does not in itself indicate a position.

If you genuinely think that you are are living under an illegal occupation then absolutely should.

I do, but I do not think an armed conflict would be appropriate at this time. Doing so would require me to "invade" the territory of others. Somehow, this conversation makes me believe you would then consider me a "madman" despite advising me to do so.

And that's my point. Your conclusions are completely situational. Russian troops were not in Ukraine when the pipeline was cancelled (which was a direct sanction on Russia before the fact). That means that somehow Russia was beholden to other countries as to their domestic troop movements. I reject that; Russian soil = Russian decision. There was no invasion until those troops crossed into Ukrainian territory, and thus there was no reason to sanction Russia by cancelling the pipeline.

If the USA were to suspect, say, an imminent attack from Cuba and were to mobilize US forces to south Florida just in case, I suspect you would consider that appropriate. However, it would be no different than what happened here. As a matter of fact, it has happened before; it's called the Cuban Missile Crisis and we did exactly what Russia did this time.

The difference is that the USA never invaded Cuba because Russia backed off. When the sides were switched, we refused to back off.

You say you want peace, but not at any cost. I can respect that answer, but I have trouble believing that answer. The only way to have lasting peace is for all countries and peoples to be treated fairly; anything less will lead to resentment and eventually to conflict. We have not been fair to Russia and Putin by your very admission. Therefore your position on the Russia/Ukraine conflict is at direct odds with your statement of wanting peace.

Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is lying to you. He's not your friend.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ScepticScot

Russia is the second largest arms exporter in the world.

I looked up the Russian economy before posting that. I saw no mention of arms exports. I saw a lot of technology and industrial exports, but not weapons. Their main exports seem to be agricultural and energy.

I have (had, rather; I lost it while fishing) a Tula 12-gauge double-barreled shotgun, made in Russia. So I know they make weapons (quality weapons based on the quality of that shotgun), but I thought it was mainly for themselves.

Do you have a source to contradict that?

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

So you agree is not as simple just peace or war.

Yes, and I never said otherwise. I asked a question (which you answered). Asking a question does not in itself indicate a position.

If you genuinely think that you are are living under an illegal occupation then absolutely should.

I do, but I do not think an armed conflict would be appropriate at this time. Doing so would require me to "invade" the territory of others. Somehow, this conversation makes me believe you would then consider me a "madman" despite advising me to do so.

And that's my point. Your conclusions are completely situational. Russian troops were not in Ukraine when the pipeline was cancelled (which was a direct sanction on Russia before the fact). That means that somehow Russia was beholden to other countries as to their domestic troop movements. I reject that; Russian soil = Russian decision. There was no invasion until those troops crossed into Ukrainian territory, and thus there was no reason to sanction Russia by cancelling the pipeline.

If the USA were to suspect, say, an imminent attack from Cuba and were to mobilize US forces to south Florida just in case, I suspect you would consider that appropriate. However, it would be no different than what happened here. As a matter of fact, it has happened before; it's called the Cuban Missile Crisis and we did exactly what Russia did this time.

The difference is that the USA never invaded Cuba because Russia backed off. When the sides were switched, we refused to back off.

You say you want peace, but not at any cost. I can respect that answer, but I have trouble believing that answer. The only way to have lasting peace is for all countries and peoples to be treated fairly; anything less will lead to resentment and eventually to conflict. We have not been fair to Russia and Putin by your very admission. Therefore your position on the Russia/Ukraine conflict is at direct odds with your statement of wanting peace.

Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is lying to you. He's not your friend.

TheRedneck

Russia invaded ukraine n 2014 ( again dates).

They were preparing to invade more of Ukraine ( the events of 2 days later) that isn't even in dispute anymore.

The idea that Germany had to wait until tank's crossed the border before applying sanctions is ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous is that cancelling nord stream 2 justifies the russian invasion.

There was no possibility of Ukraine attacking Russia that like every excuse Putin has put forward is fantasy.

The war is the direct and sole responsibility of Putin. He is also the one who can end it at any time.

And who the hell is Mr no pants?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

Russia is the second largest arms exporter in the world.

I looked up the Russian economy before posting that. I saw no mention of arms exports. I saw a lot of technology and industrial exports, but not weapons. Their main exports seem to be agricultural and energy.

I have (had, rather; I lost it while fishing) a Tula 12-gauge double-barreled shotgun, made in Russia. So I know they make weapons (quality weapons based on the quality of that shotgun), but I thought it was mainly for themselves.

Do you have a source to contradict that?

TheRedneck

en.m.wikipedia.org...

www.wilsoncenter.org...


Fairly significant when they have a smaller economy than Texas.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Russia invaded ukraine n 2014 ( again dates).

So Germany waited 8 years to sanction Russia, while allowing Russia to sink billions of rubles into a pipeline Germany never intended to allow to be used? And Russia is the bad guy here?

The USA has laws against that sort of thing if people do it.

They were preparing to invade more of Ukraine ( the events of 2 days later) that isn't even in dispute anymore.

It was in dispute at the time. Again, unless you believe Germany has the right to direct Russian troop movements inside Russia?

The idea that Germany had to wait until tank's crossed the border before applying sanctions is ridiculous.

So if I see someone walking down the road who I believe will later come back and rob me, I should just shoot him now?

Even more ridiculous is that cancelling nord stream 2 justifies the russian invasion.

If, as you indicate, Germany purposely defrauded Russia into spending so much to complete a pipeline that Germany never intended to use, that sounds like a decent reason to invade to me. Of course, maybe Russia should have invaded Germany over that.

You do realize the entire purpose of the Nord Streams was and is to bypass Ukraine? There have been conflicts over the Ukrainian pipelines for decades. So if the Nord Streams cannot be used, that leaves only one possibility: the Ukrainian pipelines. Russia could be seen as protecting their national security.

There was no possibility of Ukraine attacking Russua that like every excuse Putin has put forward is fantasy.

There was certainly a lot of talk about putting weapons in Ukraine. Was that all just fantasy?

Hell, man, the title of this very thread is "Fast track NATO membership For Ukraine Like now!" NATO membership means access to NATO weapons. That's just how it works.

The war is the direct and sole responsibility of Putin. He is also the one who can end it at any time.

So can the West. It takes two to tango.

And who the hell is Mr no pants?

Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is the guy who lives inside your TV. He tells you what to think and what to believe, and has for quite some time. He is all-knowing and all-discerning and by definition can never be wrong about anything.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ScepticScot

Fairly significant when they have a smaller economy than Texas.

I wouldn't say that. $15 billion is nothing compared to their energy exports or their agricultural exports. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of their GDP.

By contrast, the USA is projected to top $11.4 trillion in arms exports in 2022. That's quite a difference. Russia may be number 2, but they are a long, long, long, long, long way behind number 1.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Sanctions were imposed after the 2014 invasion.

More sanctions were imposed based on further actions by Russia.

It wax know by everyone who didn't blindly believe Russuan propaganda that some form of military action was going to happen, or at the very least russua was attempting to use the threat of military action. Even Putin doesn't dispute this anymore with his ever changing justifications for the invasion.

Germany did not defraud Russia. Germany would very much like to keep buying cheap gas from Russia but since Russua keeps invading its neighbours this has become somewhat politically difficult.

And no a dispute over oil pipe lines does not justify invading a third part country. How can you possibly think it does?

Does it occur to you there might be a reason all those ex warsaw pact and previously neutral countries are desperate to join NATO. Maybe Putin repeatedly invading neighbouring countries has something to do with it?

Russia is invading the Ukraine, the west has very little say in when it ends.

This is a war caused by and and continued by Putin. He can end it by withdrawing his forces. That is it.

Imaginary people you think are living in your TV don't have a lot to do with it either.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

Fairly significant when they have a smaller economy than Texas.

I wouldn't say that. $15 billion is nothing compared to their energy exports or their agricultural exports. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of their GDP.

By contrast, the USA is projected to top $11.4 trillion in arms exports in 2022. That's quite a difference. Russia may be number 2, but they are a long, long, long, long, long way behind number 1.

TheRedneck

I think you might want to check your figures

11.4 trillion would be over 50% of US GDP.

originally posted by: loveguy
locals version

foreign version

Both cases, the people chose which umbrella to stand under.

bandera Ukraine hero

Also we got the left leaning, democrat supporting, Washington post article here just from 2020...

"Six years and $20 billion in Russian investment later, Crimeans are happy with Russian annexation"

www.washingtonpost.com...

a reply to: TheRedneck

Looks like the US exports 3 times the arms Russia does, from an economy more than 10 times the size.

originally posted by: ScepticScot


Zekensky is just trying to defend his country

No, Zelenskyy is just trying to stay in power at ANY COST. Had he really wanted to save the country and save his fellow Ukrainians he would have left his job, just like the US and the Ukrainian Nationalists made Viktor Yanukovych do and left the country as soon as Russia invaded (again just like the US backed Ukrainian Nationalists made Yanukovych do, who was a democratically elected Ukrainian president) Would have saved countless lives and infrastructure in Ukraine.

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel

originally posted by: ScepticScot


Zekensky is just trying to defend his country

No, Zelenskyy is just trying to stay in power at ANY COST. Had he really wanted to save the country and save his fellow Ukrainians he would have left his job, just like the US and the Ukrainian Nationalists made Viktor Yanukovych do and left the country as soon as Russia invaded (again just like the US backed Ukrainian Nationalists made Yanukovych do, who was a democratically elected Ukrainian president) Would have saved countless lives and infrastructure in Ukraine.

While I am sure that is what Putin wanted i think Ukraine has a say in it.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Germany did not defraud Russia.

Exactly how do you make that statement? According to you, Germany knew as far back as 2014 that they were never going to allow Nord Stream 2 to operate. Yet, they did not cancel it then... they allowed it to continue and allowed Russia to pump money into a project that had no value due to Germany's own actions!

How is that not fraud?

If Germany was responding to actions in 2022, then and only then is it not fraud. But to accept that, one must accept that Germany was somehow within its rights to determine Russian troop movements on Russian soil.

There is no way this can not be an instigation by Germany.

Germany would very much like to keep buying cheap gas from Russia but since Russua keeps invading its neighbours this has become somewhat politically difficult.

Yeah, if I want to buy something, the first thing I do is make sure no one can sell it to me.

And no a dispute over oil pipe lines does not justify invading a third part country. How can you possibly think it does?

Ukraine is not a third-part country in that situation. Closing the Nord Stream 2 forced Russia to use the Ukraine pipelines. That made Ukraine a first-part country in the conflict. Russia was trying to avoid having to deal with Ukraine because there had been nothing but conflicts since Russia started using their pipelines; Germany just made sure that couldn't happen.

How is it you cannot understand that?

Does it occur to you there might be a reason all those ex warsaw pact and previously neutral countries are desperate to join NATO. Maybe Putin repeatedly invading neighbouring countries has something to do with it?

I'm sorry; how many countries is Ukraine?

I'm sure the propaganda does have a lot to do with it, though. Mr. Know-it-all No-pants keeps scaring everyone about the big, bad Russian bear that is also so decrepit it cannot do anything right.

Russia is invading the Ukraine, the west has very little say in when it ends.

Ever hear the word "diplomacy"? You know, some people call it "peace talks." That's where leaders sit down together and discuss why they are doing what they are doing and work out a way for everyone to walk away.

We used to do that a lot... but no longer, apparently. Now we just slap sanctions based on what someone might do and then when they do it we try to escalate the situation with threats. I liked it the old way.

Imaginary people you think are living in your TV

Oh, Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is not imaginary. He shows up every day. I'm really surprised you would say that, because you are repeating his words verbatim, over and over. If CNN ever loses a news anchor, you should apply; you've got the script down cold!

TheRedneck

a reply to: ScepticScot

I think you might want to check your figures

11.4 trillion would be over 50% of US GDP.

I stand corrected; that should have been $11.4 billion. I misread it.

The amount of that contribution to the Russian economy is still a tiny fraction compared to energy and agricultural exports.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

Germany did not defraud Russia.

Exactly how do you make that statement? According to you, Germany knew as far back as 2014 that they were never going to allow Nord Stream 2 to operate. Yet, they did not cancel it then... they allowed it to continue and allowed Russia to pump money into a project that had no value due to Germany's own actions!

How is that not fraud?

If Germany was responding to actions in 2022, then and only then is it not fraud. But to accept that, one must accept that Germany was somehow within its rights to determine Russian troop movements on Russian soil.

There is no way this can not be an instigation by Germany.

Germany would very much like to keep buying cheap gas from Russia but since Russua keeps invading its neighbours this has become somewhat politically difficult.

Yeah, if I want to buy something, the first thing I do is make sure no one can sell it to me.

And no a dispute over oil pipe lines does not justify invading a third part country. How can you possibly think it does?

Ukraine is not a third-part country in that situation. Closing the Nord Stream 2 forced Russia to use the Ukraine pipelines. That made Ukraine a first-part country in the conflict. Russia was trying to avoid having to deal with Ukraine because there had been nothing but conflicts since Russia started using their pipelines; Germany just made sure that couldn't happen.

How is it you cannot understand that?

Does it occur to you there might be a reason all those ex warsaw pact and previously neutral countries are desperate to join NATO. Maybe Putin repeatedly invading neighbouring countries has something to do with it?

I'm sorry; how many countries is Ukraine?

I'm sure the propaganda does have a lot to do with it, though. Mr. Know-it-all No-pants keeps scaring everyone about the big, bad Russian bear that is also so decrepit it cannot do anything right.

Russia is invading the Ukraine, the west has very little say in when it ends.

Ever hear the word "diplomacy"? You know, some people call it "peace talks." That's where leaders sit down together and discuss why they are doing what they are doing and work out a way for everyone to walk away.

We used to do that a lot... but no longer, apparently. Now we just slap sanctions based on what someone might do and then when they do it we try to escalate the situation with threats. I liked it the old way.

Imaginary people you think are living in your TV

Oh, Mr. Know-it-all No-pants is not imaginary. He shows up every day. I'm really surprised you would say that, because you are repeating his words verbatim, over and over. If CNN ever loses a news anchor, you should apply; you've got the script down cold!

TheRedneck

I already provided a link to why Germany cancelled the pipeline. Again based on Russian actions.

Europe isn't obliged to buy Russian Gas and Russia isn't entitled to use force if they don't.

You do know Russia also invaded Georgia as well as Ukraine twice? Or maybe you don't ...

Yes diplomacy would be good, let's start with that rather than invading neighbouring countries.