Hal Puthoff's musings in ULTRATERRESTRIAL MODELS

a reply to: mirageman

Not disagreeing but in "papers" even if in pseudo scientific journals referencing is standard and in this field pretty much everything is dubious !

I wouldn't call what he has written nothing, as I said it isn't ground breaking but it does concisely list the majority of the available theories.

a reply to: Direne

Nonsense.

Until the U is entirely replaced by I or PI the phenomena exists - as if UFO's are the only aspect of it anyway.

a reply to: mirageman

One issue is that some fields of so-called paranormal research are valid, IMO. Not the MK Ultra-type Hoff and the CIA were doing.

But there’s evidence that the so-called paranormal is useful to research, of course, without the military implications the US always attached to it. And ufos certainly are in the paranormal category.

The fact that there are stupid and silly ufologists and stupid and silly paranormal obsessives doesn’t detract from the study's validity.

Glad you mentioned Serpo; that is rarely talked about.

originally posted by: Direne
Mind: the paper (if you can call that a paper at all) is published in the Journal of Cosmology. As per the Wikipedia, this journal (if you can call it that way at all):

1) The Journal of Cosmology describes itself as a peer-reviewed open access scientific journal of cosmology, although the quality of the process has been questioned.

2) It has been called a predatory journal and a vanity press. The journal promotes fringe viewpoints and speculative viewpoints on astrobiology, astrophysics, and quantum physics.

It is known here on ATS NOT to use SashaFail, Snoops and Wiki"anything" as a source. They have been proven a hoax and unreliable for anything.

a reply to: Violater1

No. Here on ATS the motto is this one: Support this sponsor who supports ATS free speech.

a reply to: chunder

Until the U is entirely replaced by I or PI the phenomena exists

It has been replaced by PI. Probably Identified applies to those cases for which no positive identification has been possible, yet sufficient explanation exists.

Logical truth is a matter of a correspondence between the content of a statement (which reflects the ideas held by the person making the statement) and objective facts. With UFOs the most you can aspire to is to conclude that you cannot prove this or that specific event corresponds to a meteorite, swamp gas, helo, or whatever other reasonable explanation could be given. A real UFO event would require not to prove the UFO is a UFO, but rather than it is not swamp gas, a meteorite, or whatever other reasonable explanation could be proposed.

Only when all and each of the myriad possible explanations are scientifically ruled out can we start showing interest in the event. There are only two golden rules to apply:

1) nothing in the physical universe is self-explanatory or the cause of itself

2) we do not know the causes of everything, but we know that everything has a cause

For the military only one rules applies: if it is not a threat, dismiss the entire event.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: CyberBuddha

Actually, my friend, the only ignorant here is you. Otherwise the U in UFO and the U in UAP would be replaced by an I. Hence, you see, for you to believe in UFOs the first thing you must be is an ignorant, namely, the one who ignores what those flying objects are. This, by definition.

Now, that you are an ignorant in what concerns the U in UFO does not mean all other people out there are ignorant about what those objects are. See, it is a matter of knowing or not knowing. In fact, the U in most UFO sightings readily turns into an I after careful analysis. And for those cases in which a definite I cannot be ascertained, one usually turn the U into a PI: probably identified.

The phenomenon is not Jesus' miracles, but the fact that some people believe in miracles. In the case of UFOs, the phenomenon is not the UFO, but the fact that people do believe in UFOs. That's the phenomenon.

If you waste your time reading the 'paper' of Mr. Puthoff you wil notice how he readily writes this:

Is the phenomenon predominantly nuts ‘n bolts, psychological, or metaphysical, assuming such distinctions can be made?

See? Mr. Puthoff already gives you the answer: either physical objects, a psychological disorder, or a mystic experience. Those are the only possible avenues, according to him. A mystic experience or a psychological disorder automatically rules out any real existence of the object under investigation. You are only left with the nuts and bolts possibility, which is the one that can be easily explained as terrestrial in most cases after a careful analysis.

So, again, it is your ignorance what keeps the U in UFO alive, for you genuinely ignore what those objects are, which does not turn those objects into a phenomenon at all. It turns them into a meme, a folk-tale, a minor belief, and an industry that moves money enough to keep it alive.

You’ve just convinced me with one single post that ignorance is seemingly bliss. I wish you happy trails. Be well.

a reply to: CyberBuddha

A fool who recognises his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise - that is what one really calls a fool. Gautama Buddha.

originally posted by: chunder
Timely in light of some recent threads here is the following paper from Hal Puthoff, who will be well known to most who frequent this forum.

Pdf can be downloaded from the link here which also gives some information on the author if not familiar.

Information about the author, Hal Puthoff is incomplete at best. Apparently he began a brilliant career in laser physics, only to later become a victim of the cult of scientology where he seemed to believe the claims that scientology's "e-meter" had some kind of abilities to do more than simply measure galvanic skin response which is all it does. This article explains a little bit about how Puthoff fell down the "rabbit hole" and his once brilliant career fell into a pseudo-scientific rabbit-hole:

How Hal Puthoff Let Scientology Destroy a Promising Career

Why, between 1971-1972, did he suddenly divert his entire career path from the very successful field of laser physics, to “biofield measurements”, and parapsychology?

Coincidentally, during the 1960’s, Hal Puthoff had also joined the religious organization of Scientology, led by L. Ron Hubbard...

The document (Adair’s research) goes on to explain that at that point, in 1971, Hal had access to all the classified documents that only the highest level OT’s could obtain. Many of those documents, later captured during FBI raids, revealed Hubbard’s developed “technologies” to enlighten an individual and “tap” into temporal abilities. Hal dove deep into his Scientology belief system, as Adair describes Puthoff as going so far as to write about his own “success story” in a Scientology publication...

Based on his own writing, it is apparent that his beliefs in Scientology had started to co-mingle with his scientific endeavors. In Martin Gardner’s 1998 article Zero-point energy and Harold Puthoff, Martin points out:

“L. Ron Hubbard, the science-fiction writer who invented Scientology and became its guru, wrote a book titled Scientology: A Religion. Puthoff provided its preface. In it he blasts the FDA for calling the E-meter useless. He likens attacks on Scientology to attacks made on Harvey, Galileo, Semmelweis and Copernicus. ‘Nevertheless,’ he concludes, ‘it is incumbent upon the pioneers of new developments to press forward their discoveries in the face of all opposition.'”

"Obviously Puthoff considered Hubbard’s efforts with the E-meter as a pioneering effort, and a new “discovery”. In a 1970 notarized letter written by Puthoff, and published by the Church of Scientology, reads:

“Although critics viewing the system [Scientology] from the outside may form the impression that Scientology is just another of many quasi-educational quasi-religious ‘schemes,’ it is in fact a highly sophistical and highly technological system more characteristic of the best of modern corporate planning and applied technology.“

The letter goes on to praise Scientology’s E-meter, a simple electronic device used by “auditors” to uncover a patient’s “engrams”.

He truly believed that the measurement of galvanic skin response in people, related to their memories and other parapsychological effects related to Scientology beliefs, was a valid course of scientific inquiry. He truly believed veering off down this pseudo-intellectual rabbit hole would produce a better future than staying on his former, more promising scientific course.

It's bad enough that Puthoff let his pseudoscience leanings affect his own career, but what's worse is that a paper that he and co-author Russell Targ wrote about another topic claimed to be pseudo-science was published in nature. Puthoff and Targ were accused of not having a magician on their staff and being victims of the magic tricks performed by Uri Geller, and they were actually claiming that Uri Geller had capabilities, but critics claimed they lacked sufficient controls on Geller due to their lack of experience in magic.

For those who think maybe they were right and maybe Geller really did have abilities, this is what happened on the Johnny Carson show when a real magician applied the proper controls to Geller demonstrating his "powers"...he can't do squat under conditions controlled by a magician:

Uri Geller Fails on The Tonight Show


Why is this so bad that Puthoff and Targ were promoting alleged "psychic" abilities as science by a "psychic" who couldn't actually do anything under controlled conditions on Carson's show? Because this happened during a time of a public shift in perceptions away from valid science and toward pseudo-scientific woo and mumbo-jumbo, a topic discussed in some detail in this very interesting master's thesis, Uri Geller and the Reception of Parapsychology in the 1970s.

As explained in that thesis, that series of events in which Puthoff and Targ played a role, eventually led to a response by the scientific community to try to get average people more aware of the difference between pseudo-science and real science, in the formation of the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), which would grow to become the first major skeptical organization in the United States with thousands of members devoted to critically investigating supposed scientific evidence for the existence of the paranormal. They don't believe Uri Geller had paranormal abilities and most people with any sense watching that Johnny Carson show performance would come to the same conclusion.

You would think people would learn from these events, but in the paper referenced in the OP, Puthoff is still peddling pseudo-scientific material, and you would think he was even more exposed as a co-founder of TTSA which failed to produce anything like what they were promising to their investors, but apparently some people still want to believe him. His writing is really not very scientific however and as pointed out by Direne the journal where it was published has been called a "vanity press" so it's not a very good source for science, if you're looking for science.

TL;DR Puthoff left his brilliant career in laser science to pursue and promote pseudo-science, and he's still doing it.

originally posted by: Direne
Mind: the paper (if you can call that a paper at all) is published in the Journal of Cosmology. As per the Wikipedia, this journal (if you can call it that way at all):

1) The Journal of Cosmology describes itself as a peer-reviewed open access scientific journal of cosmology, although the quality of the process has been questioned.

2) It has been called a predatory journal and a vanity press. The journal promotes fringe viewpoints and speculative viewpoints on astrobiology, astrophysics, and quantum physics.

Yes, it's not a respectable journal. Just one example of the problem with Puthoff's writing is saying "As stated in Entry 2 above, although interested parties tend to be proponents of what would appear to be a wide range of hypotheses (ranging from “it’s all psychological – check your DSM-V,” through interdimensional/time travelers and angels...). This reference to "check your DSM-V" is a silly straw-man which infers that people who see UFOs have psychological problems since DSM is a catalog of mental disorders, but normal people without any mental disorders misperceive UFOs all the time (see example below), a fact which Puthoff hardly ackowledges in his writing.

originally posted by: Direne
A mystic experience or a psychological disorder automatically rules out any real existence of the object under investigation. You are only left with the nuts and bolts possibility, which is the one that can be easily explained as terrestrial in most cases after a careful analysis.

Yes, Puthoff's analysis is rather biased, and there are more possibilities than that. For example, if you are driving your car and see Venus peeking through the treetops as you drive along, it appears to be moving at the same speed as your car. This is not a psychological abberation, it really looks that way to normal people with a normal psychological profile. And it's an extraterrestrial object which explains its fair share of UFO sightings.

While most UFOs are probably terrestrial as you say, J Allen Hynek did use his expertise as an astronomer to confirm at least some UFOs are extraterrestrial:

As Hynek had learned in his investigation of the Michigan case, even Police officers can misinterpret Arcturus as a UFO .
The entire region was gripped with near-hysteria. One night at midnight I found myself in a police car racing toward a reported sighting. We had radio contact with other squad cars in the area. “I see it” from one car, “there it is” from another, “it’s east of the river near Dexter” from a third. Occasionally even I thought I glimpsed “it.”

Finally several squad cars met at an intersection. Men spilled out and pointed excitedly at the sky. “See--there it is! It’s moving!” But it wasn’t moving. “It” was the star Arcturus, undeniably identified by its position in relation to the handle of the Big Dipper. A sobering demonstration for me.*

*Hynek, J. Allen. “Are flying saucers real?” Saturday Evening Post. 17 December 1966.

a reply to: mirageman

You have detailed files

One tale that doesnt get told often was his stint with the "Jupiter Toy Company" and Ken Shoulders.
Interesting stuff going down...weird how it all links up if you do a (speculative) timeline with association to other linked technologies.

In defense of Puthoff:
Weinstein showed his true colours with the "why arent you a billionaire then" comment.
Hal cant RV himself so what does Weinstein expect? kidnap the RV'er and make him work in a basement?
Or offer the RV'er 70/30 and hope s/he's bad at business/never thought about doing themself?

Hal's face was like "dont you realise I've been getting paid to plait fog for decades - your proposed scheme is entirely too tangible for my tastes"

a reply to: Jukiodone

You have detailed files

Mirageman sure does.

originally posted by: Jukiodone
In defense of Puthoff:
Weinstein showed his true colours with the "why arent you a billionaire then" comment.
Hal cant RV himself so what does Weinstein expect?

"Hal cant RV himself"?

According to this link, Hal Puthoff did make claims about his Remote Viewing experience:

Hal dove deep into his Scientology belief system, as Adair describes Puthoff as going so far as to write about his own “success story” in a Scientology publication.

“He writes a success story for a Scientology publication about having completed OT VII, saying that on a weekend he had stood outside a locked building and remotely viewed information he wanted from a building directory that he couldn’t physically read from the doorway, then verified later, when the building was open, that what he had viewed remotely had been accurate.”

a reply to: Direne

Still nonsense.

A whole heap of words to state the premise that you can't prove something is unidentified just because you can't identify it.

I'd rather focus on what I can learn thanks as opposed to making up circular word games.

a reply to: Jukiodone

Here's the interview so everyone can judge for themselves.

The specific section on RVing the stock market is here : youtu.be...

For those who are averse to clicking links, it's about 52min 30 sec into the video below.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Come now Arbi
RV'ing has different levels of ability - unless you are a master RV'er (see into the future using temporal co-ordinates) ...you're condemned to good old fashioned insider trading - like Congress.

Hal's not a master- he even had to stand beside the locked door ( the mental image makes me lol ...stood there...RV'ing a locked door....) before self certifying this miraculous feat in an anecdotal story published in a religious pamphlet.

He's like the old school magicians...part of the act was they really believed.

ETA@mirageman

Both are snake oil salesmen.
Weinsteins geometric unity is EXACTLY the kind of none science Puthoff is prone to pedaling.

a reply to: chunder

You are a nonsense yourself, walking in a circle the center of which is your ignorance of logic, which definitely makes science unreachable to you. Shut up and keep walking. It is an order!

a reply to: Jukiodone

The question is not about how poor or how good a remote viewer is. The question is why someone believes he/she can view anything remotely without the help of devices and proper instrumentation. Remote viewing is like astrology: a superstition.

a reply to: Direne

Aah you gotta love Hal and his rigorous scientific standards of proof. He's been doing this since Isaac Newton was a virgin!



But he almost always has the last laugh because there are people out there stupid enough to give him money, and every time he fails to deliver. Yet he walks away richer.

TTSA gave him $34k to analyse the magic metamaterial (Art's Parts) that everyone has now forgotten about. Hal threw them in a cupboard and forgot about them, but kept the money.

a reply to: mirageman

You are right, mirageman. It is always sad when a guy uses his intelligence to deceive gullible people. It reminds me of the miracle potion salesmen, the swindlers, the tricksters. What is surprising is that his fraud lasts over time with no one to put him in his place.

It calls my attention, however, that in trying to explain the so-called phenomenon most people always start by hypothesizing about the place of origin (extraterrestrial, interdimensional, from the depths of the oceans, from obscure caverns, from other universe, from the future, and so on) instead of approaching the problem from the point of view of how one travels.

When the first Samoans first saw a strange ship they had never seen before, they did not wonder where it came from. They wondered how it could possibly sail without oars, and being so huge. For them it was important to know how, because only then could they understand from where..

In my mind working on how things work provides the answer to many other questions such as what, where from, and perhaps why.