How many men have no clue

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Quadrivium

Since you didn't address the points I'll post them again:

The group you cited is ultra-rightwing and has documented examples of misusing other's work. It was also accurate that you agree with them.

Sure!
But you go first.
The list is here.

originally posted by: Quadrivium

So, basically, you are saying "Magic" doesn't happen at conception but somewhere between conception and birth we have fairy dust and unicorns dancing around the mother???
You are the one placing a magical moment to the human life cycle, if you want to start a thread on it, I will gladly join in.
The life cycle from conception to death is a "chemical process".

Human beings are Untermenschen, until the fairy dust gets magically sprinkled on em.......
smh...

No, that is your interpretation of what I wrote. There is no magic in the process, so we either say that life has a 100% right to live with zero deviation, or we set limits to when, how, why we can end that life. Which side are you on?

a reply to: Quadrivium

Again, you are playing the victim, instead of realizing actions have consequences.
It's easier to say "it's not my fault, I am a slave, why should I be "punished".
Than to say "We are pregnant, we knew it was a possibility, we knew it might happen.

We know unintended pregnancies happen. Abortion is remedy for those unintended consequences. Why do you think women should acquiesce to biology, childbearing and parenthood as a duty they don't feel emotionally, physically or financially equipped to handle?

What you are describing are inconveniences brought about by a consensual action.

Again, sexual intercourse is NOT consent to pregnancy or parenthood. Abortion is a remedy when an unwanted pregnancy occurs.

a reply to: Quadrivium

Nope. Not interested, I just wanted to point out your source is super biased and a bunch of right-wing loons.

a reply to: Xtrozero

No, that is your interpretation of what I wrote.

What did you mean then by the sperm, egg and "magic"?

There is no magic in the process

Yet, you and others think Human beings are not human until the magic fairy dust of person-hood is sprinkled on them
(I know it sounds condescending and for that I apologize, but that is basically what you're saying).

either say that life has a 100% right to live with zero deviation, or we set limits to when, how, why we can end that life. Which side are you on?

I am on the side that thinks:
A human's life cycle begins once mitosis begins.
Once that happens it will remain the same human being throughout their ENTIRE life cycle.
They are in a constant state of change from the very beginning until the very end.
They are human beings.
Abortion is the premeditated killing of another human being.
I do not make laws, I do not set limits.
I state facts.
That is all.
No one wants to argue these points.
Just like Red was the only one to answer the question I posed here.

They can not argue facts without bringing in magic, beliefs and feelings.
This shows with 100% effectiveness that they know their mentality is flawed. Some to a higher degree of the spectrum, some on the lower.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Whenever I read your posts all I see is extreme self-centeredness where everything you suggest is based on self-interested and self-serving.

Quad is stuck on abortion on demand. Abortion on demand is for women who are experiencing an unwanted pregnancy and want to terminate it for whatever reason. It's those abortions I'm defending here.

You also want to paint a picture that motherhood is something bad like getting cancer, or a life long imprisonment to justify all this hyperbole you spew out in just about every post you make.

For some women it is. Some woman are so desperate that they're willing to risk their lives for a unsafe self-induced or back alley abortion. Not every woman is cut out to be a mom. Why force some "duty" or "punishment" on them, because they had casual sex?

Having two boys now in their 20s was a pure joy for my wife and me and it keeps on giving with neither of us once ever thinking as you do.

Not everybody is like you. And forcing women to have children they don't want won't magically make them love them like you love your sons.

There is no need to force women, who have no maternal instinct or desire to have a child, and have obviously chosen to reject the prospect of carrying and/or raising a child, to bear children they don't want?

[post]originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


EDIT:
I will just say you are a walking talking Logical Fallacy and leave it there.
Thank you for playing.

a reply to: Quadrivium

Hopefully we can get citations from The Onion next, they have as much credibility as that RWNJ doctor group.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Quad is stuck on abortion on demand. Abortion on demand is for women who are experiencing an unwanted pregnancy and want to terminate it for whatever reason. It's those abortions I'm defending here.

Abortion is the premeditated killing of another human being.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus
These will do.


"A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."- . Keith L. Moore’s The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003)

"[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being." - Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008, p. 2):

“Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote.”- T.W. Sadler, Langman’s Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11.

“The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization … The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.”- J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.

“As far as human ‘life’ per se, it is, for the most part, uncontroversial among the scientific and philosophical community that life begins at the moment when the genetic information contained in the sperm and ovum combine to form a genetically unique cell.”- Eberl JT. The beginning of personhood: A Thomistic biological analysis. Bioethics. 2000;14(2):134-157. Quote is from page 135.

“Your baby starts out as a fertilized egg… For the first six weeks, the baby is called an embryo.”- Prenatal Care, US Department Of Health And Human Services, Maternal and Child Health Division, 1990

Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed- From Human Embryology & Teratology (Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller [New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996], 5-55)
For reference to this quote and others:
An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole, and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.”- Merriam-Webster Dictionary

“Thus a new cell is formed from the union of a male and a female gamete. [sperm and egg cells] The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material, resulting in an individual different from either parent and from anyone else in the world.”- Sally B Olds, et al., Obstetric Nursing (Menlo Park, California: Addison – Wesley publishing, 1980) P 136

"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization … is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."- Human Embryology and Teratology [3rd edition, New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001, p. 8]):

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”- Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence" - Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris

originally posted by: Quadrivium
a reply to: Sookiechacha

Quad is stuck on abortion on demand. Abortion on demand is for women who are experiencing an unwanted pregnancy and want to terminate it for whatever reason. It's those abortions I'm defending here.

Abortion is the premeditated killing of another human being.

But not a person. Remember, not all human beings are people.

Forced birth is the subjection of women, experiencing unwanted pregnancies, to servitude to a theoretical "human being", that is not a person, because of a religiously imposed moral duty to biology.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

But not a person.

Magic?
And you call others names because of their beliefs........

Forced birth is the subjection of women, experiencing unwanted pregnancies, to servitude to a theoretical "human being", that is not a person, because of a religiously imposed moral duty to biology.

In 99% of abortions, nothing was forced.
The couple made a choice.

originally posted by: Quadrivium

What did you mean then by the sperm, egg and "magic"?

You mean this?

Some cultures see that using a rubber or pulling out is stopping life too as a sperm and egg is also a stage in the process, can't have any of it without those two things, but magic doesn't just happen when the sperm enters the egg, but chemical processes do.

I said magic doesn't happen as in all of a sudden an untouchable human being transforms that has all the rights and privileges of a person at one cell.

Yet, you and others think Human beings are not human until the magic fairy dust of person-hood is sprinkled on them
(I know it sounds condescending and for that I apologize, but that is basically what you're saying).

Once again I never said anything remotely like that. I think the fairy dust is on your side.... I see in the early stages of development we have a bunch of cells and that is it. Sure let it continue to develop and you get a person. Ending the initial stages of development I would not put in the same category as killing grandma...

I do not make laws, I do not set limits.
I state facts.
That is all.

Is someone arguing against your simple point you seem to want to stick too, you say it and I say so what if each abortion is killing a human being that is basically strand of DNA, I'm not like those who suggest it isn't life until the first breath, I fully know what it is and have said a million times it is a developing human being, and you keep repeating the same thing, but the OP's post is about abortions and it seems you are skirting the main part of the topic.

a reply to: Quadrivium

Magic?

Legalese.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I said magic doesn't happen as in all of a sudden an untouchable human being transforms that has all the rights and privileges of a person at one cell.

The human at mitosis is the same human being as age 99.
The ONLY difference is the stage, they are at, in their life cycle.
Look at it this way:
Once sperm and egg meet a single celled zygote is created.
This Zygote (human being) contains all of the information for each stage of development, for their development, for their entire life.
Mitosis begins. One cell becomes two, two become four, four become eight, eight become sixteen........on and on.
What is guiding this process?
Is it the father's sperm
Is it the mother's egg?
No.
This new human being is guiding their own development, through their new, individual genetic material.
They are a unique individual human being.
This process, once begun, does not end until this human being dies.
You keep saying, "becomes a person".
My question is, when does this magic happen?
How far along until the "person' fairy shows up and sprinkles the dust on them?
You can't say.
What we can say, and what we do know, is that once mitosis begins, a new human being is created.

Once again I never said anything remotely like that. I think the fairy dust is on your side...

No, this is exactly what you are saying.
At some point you think the "Person Fairy" shows up and sprinkles their magic dust on a human being to transform them into a person.
It is a human from the beginning and it will remain human until it dies.

I'm not like those who suggest it isn't life until the first breath, I fully know what it is and have said a million times it is a developing human being

Maybe this simple statement will help you understand.

Xtrozero, YOU are a developing human being.

but the OP's post is about abortions and it seems you are skirting the main part of the topic.

Abortion is the premeditated killing of another human being.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Quadrivium

Magic?

Legalese.

So you agree it is a human being with basic human rights?

a reply to: Quadrivium

You, like many here, are using Faulty Generalizations to try and prove a point.
In the case of the 10 YO girl? The pregnancy, whether by choice or not, would endanger her life and we have already covered that.

Yes, she was raped and it would have likely ended her life. At that point, I believe there should be no, zero, nada restrictions on abortion. That's an easy call.

However, that is not the only situation that can develop.

She could have gotten pregnant through consensual sex. It does happen, you know. Kids are curious critters. So that would take the "no consent" out of the question... or would it? A 10-year-old can't give consent. But what if she was 14? 16? Many 16-year-olds have successfully given birth... to a child they have no idea how to raise. So now this high school child has a child and will likely be unable to finish her education. She will be poor for the rest of her life, and so will the child. Neither will have the same freedoms to enjoy their life that we take for granted.

So we are faced with one of two tragedies. How do we, as a society choose?

We choose by setting limits, laws, on what is acceptable. We already do that; just this past week, in Alabama, a man was executed by the state for killing his girlfriend in 1994. Why was his life not precious? He was not attacking anyone... he was in prison already. We, society, choose to kill him because he was beyond rehabilitation. There was no hope at all that he could safely be released into society without killing more people.

He was a human being, and a person. His death was a tragedy, just like the death of his girlfriend.

There are tragedies in life that cannot be avoided. Sometimes we have to choose which tragedy we are willling to accept. Abortion is one of those tragedies.

I do not want to stop all abortions. Sometimes they are the best choice, like when the child cannot survive outside the womb or when the child will likely cause death to the mother. I will go farther... if it is likely the birth will cause irreparable disability to the mother. I have a daughter with a degenerative back problem; having a child could paralyze her. Were she to accidentally get pregnant, I would be OK with an abortion... and I would mourn the child.

I want to stop abortion on demand, abortion without cause used to remedy one's own irresponsibility. Abortion is not an acceptable means of birth control.

Again, what laws are you talking about if, legally, we diverge?
What rights, if it was a conscious choice? To smoke and drink while pregnant?

Alabama allows abortions in the very early stages of pregnancy. I actually think we set the bar too high and should lower it a bit. There are 50 states that have laws concerning abortion... pick one and we'll discuss it.

What rights? What about the right to enjoy one's existence? The Declaration of Independence recognizes that right as the right to the pursuit of happiness. And yet, an unwanted pregnancy pits that right of the mother against the right to life of the child. You seem to be in favor of allowing the child's rights to always overrule the mother's rights. I seek a balance between the two.

I don't remember, anywhere, ever saying laws needed to be changed or at what point a human being "magically" becomes a "person".
Those things are beyond my control.
What I have tried, and will continue to try, to do is bring people to the realization they are dehumanizing an entire demographic of human beings just so they can kill them for convenience in the overwhelming majority of cases.

And you have successfully brought that realization.

But that changes nothing. Laws are not out of your control; every single state has representative legislators who make and rescind laws based on their personal convictions and those of their constituency. I am on contact with mine, to let them know my feelings on the matter. I will affect the laws in my state.

You and Sookiechacha have that in common, both terribly uninformed about how laws are made. She thinks one simply screams and yells and insults everyone to get her legislators to listen to her; you seem to think you are impotent when it comes to legal matters. I guess this is what happens when schools drop Civics class for some social propaganda campaign.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Quadrivium

Abortion is the premeditated killing of another human being.

I hope you are cutting and pasting your same lines over and over and not retyping them. A person is when they are born and become independent of the mother. Its not a magic moment either just a legal point for many things.

So answer my only question I keep asking you. Are there any situations where your "premeditated killing of another human being" is justified?

Xtrozero, YOU are a developing human being.

Actually I been fully developed for a very long time and so for about 25 years now I'm in decline. When the unborn can live outside of the womb one could say it is fully developed though maybe still growing for about 25 years. Growing and developing are two different events.

originally posted by: Quadrivium

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Quadrivium

Magic?

Legalese.

So you agree it is a human being with basic human rights?

No. Only people have rights.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: Quadrivium

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Quadrivium

Magic?

Legalese.

So you agree it is a human being with basic human rights?

No. Only people have rights.

What makes a people? Magic?
I know for a fact what a human is.