GEC Special Report: August 2020 Pillars of Russia’s Disinformation and Propaganda Ecosystem

a reply to: vNex92

I never thought that - Russia did. Russia incorrectly thought their army would take their objectives within 5 days. Russia incorrectly thought the Ukrainian army would surrender at the first signs of combat.

Or were all the purges Putin did nothing more than promotions and retirements?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Unfortunately the Ukrainian Military have no air power after this length of the military campaign by Russia.

Even if the US keeps sending Ukraine many more weaponry to the battlefield i dont think it would change the outcome of the conflict.
I do hope the US finds a diplomatic solution instated of more weaponry.

Russia incorrectly thought the Ukrainian army would surrender at the first signs of combat

Those who fought agaisnt the Russians like were the far right militias. A bit amusing how now they are trying to cover them up by urging them to remove the neo Nazi symbolism/patches on their uniforms.

Their ideology still remains.

a reply to: Xcathdra
77 pages is alot to go through. However, as i study it further, what i am reading is easily understood as the Global Engagement Center simply writing in Russia for all the same things they do as well.

From what i read in this 77 page file as well, the term disinformation is simply apllied to any claim contrary to the official narrative. Southfront may be just that, a front however i do not see outright lies reported on there. The writing in the articles frequently states when something cannot be verified, has not been verified, or cited as unsubstantiatied rumors.

It just tries to stick to the facts and raw data when reporting on conflict news. The gec list global research as an infiltrated platform. No surprise there.

This report is really just the pot calling the kettle black. The good thing about this report is you can relabel everything with the GEC name and the tactics still fit. In that regard, it becomes a helpful tool in tracing back domestic disinformation and propoganda methods and tactics. Very clever of them to use little virus graphics when tracing connections between sources and institutions.

a reply to: vNex92

Ukraine still has an active air force.

a reply to: vNex92

Did you thought that a war like that would be easy?

Putin sure as Hell did. Makes him kind of a fool, doesn't it?

Cheers

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
People just want discussion limited because in context Russia doesn't come off much worse than the rest of the world. It vaporizes the illusions people use to make themselves feel morally justified in supporting a self-destructive and pointless war. If they can just ignore all the context then spending a couple trillion dollars to keep Ukrainians in constant war for 10 years starts to seem like an acceptable choice for our leaders to make. It's uncomfortable when that illusion starts to crack and they realize the plan has always been about stealing money and influence under the guise of a moral high ground that doesn't exist, for both fake "sides".

OK, both sides are fake, but what side do you live on? Russians will say the war is justified to get those damn Nazis and of course those 30 US-bio-weapon labs. I think the real issue I have is the Russians are so over the top and so damn bad about it, but it seems to make so much sense to many...lol

I was in Moscow in the 70s and saw the crazy ass level of propaganda that was truly unbelievable that they would even attempt to do it, but hey if it works for the ignorant then I guess it is the right way to do it. I see shadows of the same thing today...

Yeah and obviously nothing changed after 40+ years, the collapse of the Soviet Union, and a 70% population turnover. Were you in America the decade before that when we still had legal racial segregation? Just a short couple decades before that we nuked two civilian cities. This is why it's easier to prosecute this propaganda war against Russia without allowing discussion of other countries. They're acting like Russia threatening nukes if provoked is some unprecedented act when we actually dropped them on a non-military target twice. Every single thing they tell us makes Russia a monster has dozens of comparable episodes throughout modern history committed by the US. Many of them worse and for less cause. Our wars last five days because we turn whole regions into dust. It's not their money buying missiles and not their kids dying, what do they care? Why measure the cost?

Disqualifying that from a discussion about propaganda is a tool of propaganda. As I said, remove context and a trillion dollars to facilitate more mass murder almost makes sense. Almost, as much sense as tax-funded mass murder can.

There is no big flaw in my choice of sides because my side has produced no propaganda. I do not have to ignore mounds of lies and do mental gymnastics to justify why I think we should make preventing as many deaths as possible our highest priority. It's a clear morally superior position outside straight philosophical debate. I don't have to exclude data or forbid discussion. All data and progression of discussion further supports that keeping people alive is the moral choice. The more excuses you have to bring up, the more facts you have to ignore, the further back in history you have to go, the more lies you have to stumble past, then the more indefensible and untrue whatever side you've chosen is. I've found that to be the case in most things. The deeper one's side relies on those things the further it is from truth. I would feel dirty having to defend either of the approved sides in this conflict.

I don't understand how anybody can observe what's happening on this forum and feel like there's anything to salvage from either "side". The only side that really matters is the side of innocent people. There are large numbers of people that support both Ukraine and Russia among them. Which Ukrainian people do you side with? Stopping war helps them all. Continuing war helps only foreign interests and one side of Ukraine. Ukraine will not be a single country, something significant is going to be broken by the end. The only variables are how long will it take, how much will it cost, and how many people have to die. We can do it now or spend billions of dollars and cause immeasurable suffering just to do it later.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

Reference nuking 2 civilian cities.

By the time we dropped nukes the Emperor actually invoked full mobilization of all civilians. When they ran out of guns to equip the civilians, they moved on to non traditional (by western standards) weapons, like swords, gardening tools etc. The age range went from young teenager (15 years old up to 60 years old for male and 17 up to 40 years old for females). The 2 cities were also military cities in that they accounted for a huge chunk of war materials for Japanese forces.

That mobilization swelled Japanese ranks up into the 10's of millions. I understand why people use the civilian cities term but if you look at all the facts they were anything but civilian targets. At this time the rules of war, much like the current Geneva convention and its protocols, says that civilians are protected. However the moment they arm themselves they lose civilian status and are fair game for the military. The other issue was Japanese indoctrination of their civilians. The mindset of Japan was never to surrender and that extended to Japanese civilians as well. The invasion of Saipan gave the US an idea of what they would face invading the home islands. On Saipan there were 30k Japanese forces of which only 921 were taken prisoner. The civilian death toll was around 20k, with over a thousand civilians committing suicide rather than be captured.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

Yeah and obviously nothing changed after 40+ years, the collapse of the Soviet Union, and a 70% population turnover.

I been a good number of times back there since the 70s lol. In some way it is better and some worst, but I still see the shadow of the former propaganda machine, hell Putin was a main player in the old USSR, so do you think he has changed much? I don't, I think he has been still in the cold war all this time in his head.

Were you in America the decade before that when we still had legal racial segregation? Just a short couple decades before that we nuked two civilian cities. This is why it's easier to prosecute this propaganda war against Russia without allowing discussion of other countries. They're acting like Russia threatening nukes if provoked is some unprecedented act when we actually dropped them on a non-military target twice. Every single thing they tell us makes Russia a monster has dozens of comparable episodes throughout modern history committed by the US. Many of them worse and for less cause. Our wars last five days because we turn whole regions into dust. It's not their money buying missiles and not their kids dying, what do they care? Why measure the cost?

As I said what side do you want to be on? Dropping nukes in the 40s is not 2022, but Russia invading Ukraine might as well be 1930 allover again.

There is no big flaw in my choice of sides because my side has produced no propaganda.

What side is that?

I do not have to ignore mounds of lies and do mental gymnastics to justify why I think we should make preventing as many deaths as possible our highest priority. It's a clear morally superior position outside straight philosophical debate. I don't have to exclude data or forbid discussion. All data and progression of discussion further supports that keeping people alive is the moral choice. The more excuses you have to bring up, the more facts you have to ignore, the further back in history you have to go, the more lies you have to stumble past, then the more indefensible and untrue whatever side you've chosen is. I've found that to be the case in most things. The deeper one's side relies on those things the further it is from truth. I would feel dirty having to defend either of the approved sides in this conflict.

But then outside all power positioning that countries do Russia did the big no no and got upset and invaded. It is interesting the areas they want also happen to be the biggest gas fields in Europe, massive amounts and also all the coal the Ukraine mines...kind of interesting.

I don't understand how anybody can observe what's happening on this forum and feel like there's anything to salvage from either "side". The only side that really matters is the side of innocent people. There are large numbers of people that support both Ukraine and Russia among them. Which Ukrainian people do you side with? Stopping war helps them all. Continuing war helps only foreign interests and one side of Ukraine. Ukraine will not be a single country, something significant is going to be broken by the end. The only variables are how long will it take, how much will it cost, and how many people have to die. We can do it now or spend billions of dollars and cause immeasurable suffering just to do it later.

When Germany invaded Europe would you have said the same thing? Russia will be happy with the natural resources they will gain, and the two main reasons to take the whole country is because Putin has always said Ukraine is Russia and should be Russia, AND it opens direct access to the EU without those pesky Ukrainians in the way.

How many innocent people should die? About as many as Russia thinks is right....

a reply to: Xcathdra
I wasn't going to respond, but since this is a thread about propaganda I feel I should deal with this nuke thing. It's a teachable moment. Maybe we'll get a Whitehouse Beer Summit out of this.

Civilian target vs civilian city sure sounds like propaganda speaking. It sure sounds to me like a civilian city was a military target. It was a city. Citizens lived there. It's a civilian city. They didn't kill themselves as dedicated soldiers, they killed themselves because it was drilled into their very xenophobic little heads that the Americans were going rape and torture them to death if they were captured. Spoiler alert, the Japanese government actually wasn't exaggerating but underestimating, and the US did kill a bunch of them to thunderous applause.

Unless you're now calling the schools and apartment complexes holding military equipment in Ukraine military targets I'd say you're inconsistently applying justification because you consumed propaganda. How sad. No, I'm not interested in who started what. We can do the blame game back to the tree of knowledge and it solves nothing in our current situation. That route leads to God, you want to blame God it's fair game I guess.

You both responded with propaganda defending the US when I never attacked or asked to revisit those events. I didn't mention Moscow 40+ years ago, Xtrozero did. It was in response to that, which I'd think would have been clear since I ridiculed including Moscow in the 70's, I mentioned old events. Then, after blaming me for crap he did, he drags me back to 1930 with the asinine Germany question like this is anything remotely close to the Holocaust and half of Europe occupied. It's an absurd hypothetical piece of, say it with me, propaganda.

We aren't done though. No, we later learn... LOL
a reply to: Xtrozero

I been a good number of times back there since the 70s

He's been back many times since! Not only is he bringing up old crap, he has much newer crap. So WTF was the point of 1970 if the past doesn't matter and you have more recent experience? How in the flux do you spin that into me being the confused one? How does your trip in 1970 make the cut to the post but mention of multiple subsequent trips doesnt? Why?

It took me a couple minutes and then I realized why, because 1970 was the worst and what was desired to present to the class, aka, propaganda. Manipulating the data to change perception.

As I said what side do you want to be on? Dropping nukes in the 40s is not 2022, but Russia invading Ukraine might as well be 1930 allover again.

It is not 1930 again. That's propaganda. Twice in that post you bring up old crap while telling me old crap doesn't matter. Stop bringing it up then, doctor heal thyself.

I know I managed to hide my position very cleverly so it was hard to spot. I went through and extracted it so you can fail to read it here too, two posts down from where it still sits.

I do not have to ignore mounds of lies and do mental gymnastics to justify why I think we should make preventing as many deaths as possible our highest priority.

All data and progression of discussion further supports that keeping people alive is the moral choice.

Stopping war helps them all. Continuing war helps only foreign interests and one side of Ukraine.

The only side that really matters is the side of innocent people.

And I followed with why.

Ukraine will not be a single country, something significant is going to be broken by the end. The only variables are how long will it take, how much will it cost, and how many people have to die. We can do it now or spend billions of dollars and cause immeasurable suffering just to do it later.

I'm out. This is just dumb, man.

There can't be a real discussion about propaganda when propaganda is promoted and you can't stop promoting propaganda until you are no longer feeling the need to defend the honor of some crappy actions just because it's your team.

You can still be a super patriot Russian orc slayer and also admit that it really sucks the US killed a ton of Japanese "non-civilians". If that's not possible without having to justify it then you aren't really ready to discuss propaganda.