US Firearms and Todays Society

originally posted by: ketsuko

A healthy dose of spirituality might be part of fixing it. Connecting to something larger than one's self-important little person might help kids gain some perspective outside their narcissistic little selves.

I agree, but how about just human socialization in general. Young people are pulling away from physical interactions such as sports and events like school clubs in general and many other organizations/support networks with physical interactions to help people cope. There are some good men only ones too to help men cope with todays world. Hell even a Jordan Peterson focused social group would do wonders for many.

a reply to: Xtrozero

My point is that there is no way to evaluate somebody and say that they are going to do this or not do that.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Evaluate for what? That's the problem. Since there is no exact definition a diagnosis is up to the person doing the evaluation. That person's judgement can be influenced by their beliefs or their employer's beliefs.

Let's say someone was evaluated and wasn't allowed to have a firearm. Time passes and they go in for another evaluation to determine if the restriction should be lifted. You are the evaluator. The person's evaluation shows nothing wrong. What do you do?

originally posted by: JIMC5499

My point is that there is no way to evaluate somebody and say that they are going to do this or not do that.

Are you an expert in the field to say something so absolute? You can not predict outcomes but you can evaluate tendencies and behaviors such as actual violence, antisocial behavior etc etc. What ever it may be to bring the attention of concern. Repeatable actions is a big clue. With this kid who did a good deal of violence and threats in his life before this horrendous event, if it was noticed and looked into they might have found nothing wrong with the kid other than a dysfunctional family life leading him to do the negative actions he was doing.

It all starts with behaviors that are real and can be observed and measured.

I wonder is little kids go to school in other parts of the world wondering if they will be shot, like in the US?

Mothers might play a big part in the coming election unless something positive is done. You know the dembs are going to play this for all it's worth.

What does the GOP have planned?

originally posted by: JIMC5499

Evaluate for what? That's the problem. Since there is no exact definition a diagnosis is up to the person doing the evaluation. That person's judgement can be influenced by their beliefs or their employer's beliefs.

Let's say someone was evaluated and wasn't allowed to have a firearm. Time passes and they go in for another evaluation to determine if the restriction should be lifted. You are the evaluator. The person's evaluation shows nothing wrong. What do you do?

Well first, what caused the need for an evaluation in the first place? It starts with negative behavior patterns that are either noticed or expereinced by others. Today if a kid doesn't show up at school for 3 days with nothing from the parents does a social worker go to the house...don't think so.

You build a behavior pattern, hell talk to their family... His grandmother didn't have a lot of good things to say about him, his few friends knew he was dangerous, so on and so forth. You need to start somewhere and if someone under 21 is put on a general hold for what we see as adult responsibilities I do not have an issue with that. I also think that there should not be general life long bans on felons to own guns, so in all cases it is a situation of whether a person has evolved from past negative behaviors, or not.

With this case there was no social worker, teacher, friends family etc etc involved to ever say hey we have an issue here we need to look into, and that there my friend is the crux of the issue.

originally posted by: olaru12
I wonder is little kids go to school in other parts of the world wondering if they will be shot, like in the US?

There has been 13 mass school shootings since 1966 where at lease 4 people were killed with a total of 146 people killed. The US has 190,000 schools... This last one made it 13 in 56 years. There are 75 countries with a higher murder rate than the US, so at the end of the day 300 million guns puts us like in the middle, and if we got rid of like 10 cities where guns are actually illegal we would be even lower by a good amount. Then when we see that 1/2 the murders are gang on gang crime it really starts to show what like 90%+ of America is really like.

I agree protect our schools, I was in Spain a few weeks ago and walking by a elementary school it had 20 foot fences with 10 feet metal to where you can not see in and a ton of adults outside with the kids and what appears to be very large locked doors that you need to buzz to get in. Also fixed our gun free big cities and gang issues that drive the vast majority of our murder data and we are right there from 5 per 100k to less than 1 per 100k like so many zero gun countries seem to be, but there are still countries that guns are basically illegal and have rather large murders per 100k.

a reply to: TheRedneck

a paramilitary training course where they can be taught:

personal responsibility

value of life

societal expectations

Simple survival strategies

I'd like to get others' thoughts on this.

I don't think it would work, not like you're thinking, bud.
These are things that should be taught throughout a child's life.
If you don't start at a very early age with some of these, especially value of life, it won't 'stick'.
These things have to be not only learned, but instilled, daily or the knowledge gained will be lost over time.
It has to become part of them to retain it. For some young people, what you propose would be like a "Reform School"
They have never been taught, some are taught the opposite of the things you listed.

The only way I see something like this possibly working is with bi-yearly refresher courses. One and done wont do it IMHO.

a reply to: Xtrozero

You build a behavior pattern, hell talk to their family... His grandmother didn't have a lot of good things to say about him, his few friends knew he was dangerous, so on and so forth.

That's the exact opposite of what we do today. Even when my kids were in school, it was a major pain to walk in the front door. A parent was accosted at every turn wanting to know why they were there, who they were, what they wanted... and yet, last time I checked, no parents have ever shot up a school.

I have known a couple of parents that were banned from the school their children went to. The reason? They disagreed with what was being taught.

But an 18-year old transgender with behavior problems and a loaded gun? Just walk right in. Make yourself to home! Kick your shoes off! Here, shoot up some innocent kids while you're relaxing!

Yeah that's hyperbole, but it does deliver the point.

What we need are not walls... we need actual competent security. A big part of security is knowing who is and is not OK to be there. if you're a parent, show your ID when you walk in. Not a parent? Not a student or late for class? Strip search, question, and verify every word.

And train the teachers on what to do. Most of them don't have any idea what to do if a shooter invades, other than panic. No amount of regulations can accomplish what proper training and common sense can.

With this case there was no social worker, teacher, friends family etc etc involved to ever say hey we have an issue here we need to look into, and that there my friend is the crux of the issue.

And that is why I made my suggestion: a few months at camp with qualified (ex-military) guardians will flag anyone who has a social problem. Getting these kids away from social media will work wonders as well; the world does not revolve around social media and never will. No problems? Fine, here, you're officially an adult. But if there are problems, we can try to prevent them from escalating early.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Quadrivium

These are things that should be taught throughout a child's life.

Yes, they are. But the point of the camp is not to change the kids, but to determine if there's a problem. Then we can talk about what we're going to do about it. I could see myself supporting denying those who fail the right to keep and bear arms, although that would also require a Constitutional Amendment to be legal.

It also negates any "woke" teachings at home... if it becomes common knowledge that you are going to have to attend this camp to become an adult, that's an incentive to tell Mom and Dad to shut up and stop trying to make me fail camp!

Is it perfect? No... but it would help identify those at high risk.

I also think Facebook is partly accountable. They're more than happy to ban accounts and report people for "wrong-think" but they let these posts slip by without so much as a howdy-do? Unacceptable. What's the legal penalty for producing a product that accidentally kills people?

TheRedneck

Gun shot detectors at schools that automatically lock the outside doors. Also, the system should give a direction of the gun shots to the main office.

Since he had fired shots before he entered a door, this would have locked the school down before he got in. With the right lock system, people could have got out in case of fire, but a shooter would be unable to get in.

a reply to: TheRedneck

One size isn't going to fit all. You will have the left wanting to teach about gender fluidity acceptance and the right wanting to teach about the evils of welfare and premarital sex.

Here's an idea. Do away with all public schools. Give vouchers to parents for education (which will actually make things more equal because higher income neighborhoods have better schools).

There's absolutely no reason to have these large public schools. Teaching can be done online or in-person small groups at various locations. What you need is one person who is responsible for managing the child's education through the system - not just for one year or one class. Starting in Junior High, which is around 11/12, most kids only see teachers for one hour each. They don't get to know the students to make sure they're not falling through the cracks. I read an article about what mass shooters have in common and all of them felt isolated and no one cared. Going to a school with hundreds of other kids breeds isolation.

a reply to: ANNED

And if he hadn't fired a shot before running inside? Then he's locked in with the kids and the cops are locked out.

Bad, bad idea.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Daughter2

One size isn't going to fit all.

Then there is no solution. Until we can say, together as a country, what is and is not acceptable, we have no country. That's what people mean when they say we are "a nation of laws." Those laws define who we are and what we can and cannot do.

There has to be some agreed-upon truths. Without those, we are a group of small tribes always at war. and the result is that, in a few minutes, 19 of our greatest hopes for the future, 19 of the most innocent among us, were erased by one person who refused to accept any truths.

One size must fit all or we are all doomed.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Red,

Im pretty set against creating even more govt backed/supported/mandated hoops to jump through in order to exercise my 2nd ammendment right.

Now, at a state level, my stance is marginalized lawfully. As per my state and I would assume many others, Hunters Safety is a class that is required by minors before being allowed to obtain a hunting license for their state.

Now thats not to say I disagree with your ideas, because I dont. The govt involvement I do.

Whats to say though that a contingent of pro education FFLs would require such a thing. Be it a certificate or some such acknowledgement. Perhaps an on site class while NICS processes.

In my utopia, retailers and citizens alike would require some proof of education and training before they sold a firearm. And the govt would have zero say in the while process.

a reply to: TheRedneck

PJ has video of what the cops did. It seems they arrived in force and spent 40 minutes to an hour kibbutzing outside while he shot kids! Their parents showed up and organized to just plain do anything because the cops wouldn't, and the cops ... arrested them, WHILE HE WAS MURDERING KIDS!

That's another reason why locking doors is bad.

a reply to: olaru12

What does the GOP have planned?

Nothing, they have 0% new ideas, and the D, have too many stupid f'ing ideas..rinse, repeat!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TheRedneck

PJ has video of what the cops did. It seems they arrived in force and spent 40 minutes to an hour kibbutzing outside while he shot kids! Their parents showed up and organized to just plain do anything because the cops wouldn't, and the cops ... arrested them, WHILE HE WAS MURDERING KIDS!

That's another reason why locking doors is bad.

This is exactly why I dislike cops

originally posted by: TheRedneck
That's the exact opposite of what we do today. Even when my kids were in school, it was a major pain to walk in the front door. A parent was accosted at every turn wanting to know why they were there, who they were, what they wanted... and yet, last time I checked, no parents have ever shot up a school.

We are literally living in a upside down world. All this focus on the gender of a 3rd grader and this happened. If the school was locked and even one armed guard we would not have 19 dead. What is our priorities here? How about school "real" safety and a much wider net of student awareness. As you said, schools do not want parents in any part of their programs to include even understanding the kids family life, and over all behaviors whether they are based on isolation or violence. This kid could have been living in a rat invested crap hole with a mother strung-out of dope most of her waking hours and no one knows one way or another.

What we need are not walls... we need actual competent security. A big part of security is knowing who is and is not OK to be there. if you're a parent, show your ID when you walk in. Not a parent? Not a student or late for class? Strip search, question, and verify every word.

At my work we have roving security and a good number of doors that you need a card to get through with every person have access to only where they need to go. I also have no issues with teachers caring concealed as long as they are fully trained, desire it and competent.

a reply to: vonclod

False.

They wil continue to sit on their porches yelling softly things like, "dont wait stop."

Ever playing defense and losing.