Hypersonic Missiles

I'm from USA and disappointed to learn that China is leading the Hypersonic Missile race, and even losing to Russia. Is this another sign of corruption and incompetence of the US government, whose first job should be defense?

I was wondering if we can gather some info here and debate how far ahead China is in terms of time and or capabilities, as well as Russia. Share any info you have.

Cheers

originally posted by: TTU77
I'm from USA and disappointed to learn that China is leading the Hypersonic Missile race, and even losing to Russia. Is this another sign of corruption and incompetence of the US government, whose first job should be defense?

I was wondering if we can gather some info here and debate how far ahead China is in terms of time and or capabilities, as well as Russia. Share any info you have.

Cheers

We have no equivalent or deterrent here in Australia as far as I know.

Fire away.

Kind regards,

Bally

At the rate technology is advancing it may be a better option to NOT invest in hypersonic missiles.

By the time we get a decent stockpile going, lasers or nanobots will be all the rage.

Mr. President, we must not allow a hypersonic gap!

If China didn’t steal the technology from the USA who did they steal it from????

originally posted by: CloneFarm1000
At the rate technology is advancing it may be a better option to NOT invest in hypersonic missiles.

By the time we get a decent stockpile going, lasers or nanobots will be all the rage.

Mr. President, we must not allow a hypersonic gap!

Hypersonic is a gamechanger now!! Lasers could be a decade or more away, but mostly as a counter measure to hypersonic missles.

I do know the American military just had a successful Mach 5 test so we are not behind I feel, that is the third successful test and all three were different platforms. Hard to really gauge who has what and exactly what it does. I don’t think they will be that big of a game changer what with everything else on the table already for all


www.cnn.com...

That was like the first test they ever did right, lol. Russia isn't just testing, but using hypersonic missiles on the battlefield. A huge difference from test to operational. Russia and China have been testing them for atleast 2-3 years, so that is atleast how far behind we are.

It is a game changer because there is literally no defense whatsoever of any kind against HM. They can move 10x the speed of sound and swerve to dodge anti missile defense and in a literal second be a mile or two away. Imagine if they are outfited with nukes?

originally posted by: Brotherman
If China didn’t steal the technology from the USA who did they steal it from????

In the late 1930s Austrian engineer Eugen Sänger and German physicist Irene Bredt designed the first hypersonic aircraft, called the Silbervogel. If the technology was stolen from anywhere, by anyone, it was stolen from the Germans (and the USA was one of the first thieves).

Many missile systems produced since then go hypersonic (i.e: the Scud-B missile).

The problem with all in-atmosphere hypersonics is the incredible air drag produced and therefore the propulsion requirements.

Here's an article from Scientific American that explains things well - and why they aren't really the game changer the Russians claim.

I actually got in trouble accessing details about waverider designs back two or three decades decades ago (this sort of thing happens occasionally when you are involved in such studies). The majority of the research came from a theoretical basis developed in a university in Scotland (where the research was not classified), but it was classified as secret in the USA by joint NASA/AirForce guys, so I got my knuckles rapped for looking at the wrong thing on a US AirForce server (at Nellis - data security was so lax back then, LOL). So, my guess is that the USAF was stealing the research from their allies back then - like they did with a lot of atomic weapons research, too.

a reply to: TTU77

Material science is the real issue.

The temperatures generated on the leading edges of hypersonic vehicles, especially so at low altitudes, are in excess of 1,800˚C while traveling at Mach 5.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: TTU77

Material science is the real issue.

The temperatures generated on the leading edges of hypersonic vehicles, especially so at low altitudes, are in excess of 1,800˚C while traveling at Mach 5.

Yes, I believe the faster it goes, the hotter it gets by a factor of 3, so mach 2 would be 8x hotter, mach five would be 5x5x5 hotter. That is the difficulty materially.

a reply to: TTU77

Creating of some sort of plasma shroud in front or around the vehicle apparently mitigates the temperatures generated on the surface skin and leading edges but even then our material science is being pushed to the limits regarding vehicles traveling at over Mach 5/6 for any length of time.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: TTU77

Creating of some sort of plasma shroud in front or around the vehicle apparently mitigates the temperatures generated on the surface skin and leading edges but even then our material science is being pushed to the limits regarding vehicles traveling at over Mach 5/6 for any length of time.

Is around the world long enough, lol

(CNN)China's test of a hypersonic missile over the summer "went around the world," the second most senior US general said in an interview released Tuesday, shedding new details on the test and warning that China might one day be able to launch a surprise nuclear attack on the United States.

"They launched a long-range missile," General John Hyten, the outgoing vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff told CBS News. "It went around the world, dropped off a hypersonic glide vehicle that glided all the way back to China, that impacted a target in China."

www.cnn.com...

a reply to: TTU77

Is around the world long enough, lol

Rather impressive indeed, and only missed its target by about 25 miles or so but its an ICBM with a glide vehicle on top.

Travelling at such speeds at low attitude is a bit different because the forces and heat generated traveling through the atmosphere are somewhat more extreme.

a reply to: TTU77

No it wasn't "the first test they ever did". The US has been testing hypersonic platforms for decades, and is working on more advanced systems like TBCC engines for reusable platforms, not just missiles. The recent test was the third test for that particular system, and first successful test.

As for the Russian missiles being used, their performance hasn't been as good as claims. Their performance to date has been good, but somewhat underwhelming.

a reply to: TTU77

The Chinese test didn't release the vehicle until it was back near China. As stated, it was out of the atmosphere for most of the flight. A hypersonic test that went around the world in atmosphere would be a game changer. An ICBM out of atmosphere going around the world is less impressive.

a reply to: TTU77

hypersonics may be fast but that's also their weakness too, they are too hot to evade radar and you dont need hypersonics to counter hypersonics, you just need to hit it from the front of its path and the heat makes it obvious where its going.

America quit hypersonics for a reason and china is just wasting money on a pointless technology that wont give them any real edge, America abandoned speed for stealth and i have no doubt china will figure out why and also abandon it.

only usefulness i see it for is nationalist propaganda because most people have no real understanding of technology in general, they just hear its faster so it must be better in their mind. its great to use to impress but that's it really.

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: TTU77

hypersonics may be fast but that's also their weakness too, they are too hot to evade radar and you dont need hypersonics to counter hypersonics, you just need to hit it from the front of its path and the heat makes it obvious where its going.

America quit hypersonics for a reason and china is just wasting money on a pointless technology that wont give them any real edge, America abandoned speed for stealth and i have no doubt china will figure out why and also abandon it.

only usefulness i see it for is nationalist propaganda because most people have no real understanding of technology in general, they just hear its faster so it must be better in their mind. its great to use to impress but that's it really.

What caught my mind is more the maneuverability than the speed, in fact, because it is so fast, it is so maneuverable, so the two aren't mutually exclusive. Saying hypersonic flies in a straight line and easy to track on radar to hit is nonsense. That is completely opposite of the truth. What makes HM a game changer is there path is unpredictable, extremely so and it is precisely this why they can't be targeted and defended against.

Just watch this and come up to speed.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: namehere

We didn't quit hypersonics. We currently have several systems in development, including an air breathing, reusable aircraft. Hypersonics are useful because the reaction time to defend against them is so low. They won't be LO, along the lines of a subsonic missile like JASSM, but the time between detection and kill is significantly lower than against a subsonic or even supersonic missile.

a reply to: TTU77

That's where you're wrong. Hypersonic missiles aren't that maneuverable, it's just that moving that fast a small course change results in a large change in the long run. You're not going to see a hypersonic missile make a 90 degree course change. It's very small changes, basically like a ship zig zagging to avoid submarines. Small changes that result in large turns. The SR-71, that was nowhere close to hypersonic, took hundreds of miles to make a 180 degree turn. A hypersonic platform, even a missile is going to need even more room to turn around. Hypersonic missiles do fly a straight line, but they have the ability to make minor changes to try to throw off defenses. At that speed defenses have to be perfect, and a small change can throw them off and make them miss.

Hypersonics are game changers because they reduce the time to kill them to seconds instead of minutes. It's going to force defenses to be farther out, which will require either more assets tied up in larger groups, or thinner defenses.