Are EVs or Horses worse for the environment?

I've seen a lot of concern about livestock as it concerns environmentalism, and I've seen a lot of concern about resources and electric vehicles.

Does one of these make a greater environmental issue?

Perhaps this is not the best forum to pose this question, but it is the one seemingly most fitting to the inquiry I had. And I have not found something persuasive to either side of this argument, so I hoped this might provide me with studies I have not previously found.

If mods need to move or delete, I understand.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

One of the basis lessons of life that a true heart Liberal does not understand or either refuses to accept.

Is that nothing in this world is Free.

Electric Vehicles may not produce green house gases themselves but they pollute just the same , the Rare Earth elements and Metals needed to manufacture the batteries come at great cost and are extremely polluting during the mining process .

Not to mention the massive energy needed to Charge the Electric Vehicles, If America switched to 100% Electric Vehicles over night our power grid would also collapse over night .

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Ironic that fossil fuel is burned to charge machines that are designed to lower the carbon footprint.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Ironic that fossil fuel is burned to charge machines that are designed to lower the carbon footprint.

Out of sight Out of mind mate .

So far it seems livestock for personal transport is more environmentally friendly?

It ain’t horses that’s for sure!
On the hand, the next town over, Westport Ma. has a huge double branch river running through it and along the Eastern Branch their were two Dairy Farms that ran right to the edge of the river. Each had hundreds and hundreds of milk cows until they got forcibly shut down. The North end of the river was disgusting back then! I know the East and West branches as well as the harbor like the back of my hand.
The river is recovering but there is an on-going project to remove all the old style Cess Pools the old timers put in.
With no sewer system in place the town is on the backs of every riverside home owner. Mandatory title 5 inspections and if you don’t pass get ready. These days complete system for even the smallest houses is gonna set you back $30k at least!

So no!

EV’s are much much much worse. I live out in the woods here. I see what they do!


Cheers….

da pirate 😎





.
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

a reply to: PiratesCut

Hey Pirate,

Not sure what you are advocating for?
You said it's not horses, but then suggested EV's are worse.
Dromedary?
Cattle?
Gas machines?

Where is your preferred ride of the future?

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

Sure, I overlooked the obvious boats.

since I am stuck in a wheelchair I guess, well you get it.

next summer I am going to try to row to Portugal.

With any luck, I won’t make it. I would be perfectly happy if my blessed life ended at sea!



a reply to: randomtangentsrme

a reply to: PiratesCut

My Pop, being a navy vet, would like to have his end at sea as well.
And Ab diving was more my concern than rowing, for him.

But this a conversation not for this thread other to say, I wish you all the life you can have, and I suggest professional support to remind you you have not seen enough of what you might leave behind.
Stated with all respect. And I do think I have seen you posting here far longer than we have engaged, and I would love your voice for a time to come.

I just bought a prized drum set, from an old friend. First time in 54 years he's been with out a kit. I bought it to help another drummer (him of retirement age and moving). I have to many persons on the internet and in person that are cutting ties and going fallow not to suggest there might be some social perceived issues that is not the reality.

I own 2 drum sets already. I made my money in cases and brass, but I'll sell it all back to him at the same price if it means he has his kit back.

It's an interesting thing helping those and doing what we love. But also it's interesting chatting online. Which you have done a fine job of doing.
But because I know you to be an individual of good intellect, what should the future of local transport be?

a reply to: PiratesCut

Oh come on man. I hate to hear you talk like that.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

The entire argument is built upon the false premise of there being something artificial, when nothing in reality can be artificial, not truly. We can make replicas, lie and say that they're the thing they replicate, but even doing so, it still does not actually produce anything artificial as there no system beyond us from which we, or anything else, can draw artificiality from.

Think: nothing doesn't exist and so there cannot be any real separation between things. If we wiped-out all life on Earth and built a planet-wide city like Coruscant from Star Wars then the planet would still be a natural environment as we, and our effects, are all a part of nature and are thus one with any and all environments.

edit: The globalists want to be in control of the environment world, that is all that this is. They want the world for themselves and to get it they sell everyone the environment con so they can limit your effect on their world. Now, go live in a tiny rental box. Actually, rent all of your belongings from them. And, whatever you do, please remember to never reproduce because that's selfish.

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Liberals know that stuff isn’t free.
Get off your high horse, lol
Liberals pay massive amounts of their salary for crappy employment style healthcare, just like all of us American suckers.

On topic, horses are slow. And leave muffins in the road.

Horses, bad for the environment??? Well that's the Amish knacked then. Who's gonna tell em?

The reality is that it takes energy to move mass from one point to another.

Increasing efficiency & diversity of this process is probably a more effective approach than completely shifting to any single solution. Whether that is a vehicle or a horse, they will all have a unique environmental impact. They will all produce some type of waste as part of the energy conversion process. Particularly when we are talking about the scale required for mass transportation of the majority of the population.

The modern environmental movement has a myopic focus on carbon emissions, much to the detriment of other aspects which cause as much (or more) environmental impact.

The most effective solution is probably one that distributes the environmental load of the different methods through which we transport mass. Meaning, no silly myopic focus on so-called "green technology." Rather, increasing efficiency of combustion engines, decreasing the extremely high environmental impact of manufacturing electrical vehicles, and refining public transportation for high density living regions. The first part is just as important as anything, and is the antithesis of the modern "green" movement.

Because each technology has a rather unique environmental footprint, the best thing we can do is to essentially embrace all of it without adopting a single technology to the exclusion of all others. Instead, we have the people largely responsible for the negative environmental effects of modern technology wanting to control markets forevermore.. and they only way they can do this is by centralizing the solution and marketing that centralization as "the only way." So much so, that it turns into a zealous religion where not only is there complete Narrative control that precipitates the same myopism in the population.. but also imbues a righteous fervor (brand loyalty) in the solution they have on offer. See: basically the entire "green" movement.

So, horses are actually probably a good solution in some ways and some regions. But so are combustion engines and electric vehicles. As long as we dont embrace the idiocy of "One Single Technology to Control Them All," then we can dramatically and drastically reduce negative environmental impact in a true Whole Systems Approach. Instead of the abomination that is marketed as one.

The thing about horses is the manure they make. Think of the 1000s of horses that would be needed to keep a modern city running. And the manure they would make. The cities would have a layer of manure on the main streets inches deep and thousands of city workers just to clean up after them.

Say what you want about fossil fuels. Today's cities are a 1000 times cleaner than an 1880s London or New York.

a reply to: ntech

Horse manure makes good fertilizer.
So we have created jobs, and product to sell for environmental good?

What is the point you are thinking you are making?

originally posted by: spacedoubt
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Liberals know that stuff isn’t free.
Get off your high horse, lol
Liberals pay massive amounts of their salary for crappy employment style healthcare, just like all of us American suckers.

On topic, horses are slow. And leave muffins in the road.

Horses are slow only compared to land vehicles. Over distance they are much faster than humans.
Boats are fast, even though I think I've only been on a boat going at around 30- 35 mph. Perhaps the few cruse ships I have been on might have gone faster.
I would agree with AASB, that certain folk only look to a short term determination rather than a full dissection when considering the true benefits vs. detriments.

And I will push back on your on topic determination, as my question was which is more environmentally friendly.

Cities were incredibly dirty pre 1900. They were covered in manure from all those horses. Now just imagine todays cities running on horses. You would need millions of them for a New York or LA. Plus their cargo moving ability is quite limited compared to a modern cargo van or large pickup. Not to mention a tractor trailer that can weigh up to 80,000 lbs in the US.

The dust, the insects, the filth, the SMELL. The problem with today is everyone has forgotten just how much an advancement the internal combustion engine actually was.

originally posted by: ntech
Cities were incredibly dirty pre 1900. They were covered in manure from all those horses. Now just imagine todays cities running on horses. You would need millions of them for a New York or LA. Plus their cargo moving ability is quite limited compared to a modern cargo van or large pickup. Not to mention a tractor trailer that can weigh up to 80,000 lbs in the US.

The dust, the insects, the filth, the SMELL. The problem with today is everyone has forgotten just how much an advancement the internal combustion engine actually was.

We still have opportunity to hybrid combustion engines with the poop on streets in places like San Francisco, before adding in the horse cops that exist currently.

I want to agree with you but you are not giving me anything to agree with.