On predestination & foreknowledge - where is our decision, apart from God's sovereignty?

Hi folks,

I'm reading a book which has some Christian theology interspersed with the main subject matter (which is irrelevant to this question, hence I'm not quoting from it). In the theology this guy is putting forward, he is whaling on those who say that salvation has anything to do with us, our decisions, our free will, etc. He stands on a few pieces of scripture* which for me, leave open the possibility that although salvation is the gift of God, and that Jesus is the author & perfecter of our faith, that there must be included somehow the room to believe that our own free will has something do do with the salvation which later results in our lives & inner being as the outcome of God's grace towards us.

For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love…

Ephesians 1: 4

And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8: 28-30

Now in Romans it says that God's call is upon our lives. That suggests to me that He knew from the beginning those who would ANSWER that call, and live out their lives in His service, in His grace, inheriting salvation. But this is also suggestive that there are others who are called by & to God, but who do not answer the call, and thus do not inherit the perfect salvation that is offered to the disciples of Christ. It reminds me of Paul's letter where he states that some who are turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh can still inherit salvation, but it will be a 'less perfect' type of salvation, that person being saved as though snatched from the flames, rather than inheriting the gospel of peace, to live out their response to God's call in the full grace & with the blessings which come attendant with that perfect salvation (including spiritual gifts, guidance, fellowship with other Christians, teaching & instruction leading to understanding & wisdom, and the prosperity arising from that wisdom, which comes from the application to our lives of the manifest grace of Christ.

The Romans quote also notes that just as God foreknew those who would answer the call, He in fact thereafter also predestined those people to inherit the perfect salvation of Christ. The author who was speaking (in a sense ranting) regarding the alleged fact that human will has nothing to do with salvation, tries to use the "He also predestined" part of the quote to 'prove' that salvation has nothng to do with us, it is entirely the work of God alone. I personally think that God loves us too much to create us as automatons who will do exactly as He pleases automatically - because that would not be freedom, it would be a form of slavery. By calling to us as described, He places the burden of acceptance of that call upon ourselves - unless we choose to accept, the predestination He has planned cannot come into effect & is nullified.

It's a similar argument I use to refute the gnostic claim that Judas was selected by Jesus to betray Him, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have been sent to the cross. That's nonsense, because no matter how it did happen, His being turned over or caught by the Jewish leaders & handed over to the Roman authorities could have happened in many different ways. In the known fact, God allowed Judas to betray Jesus, but that capture & sentencing could have happened in several different ways. Jesus was in truth always 'being captured' throughout His ministry, yet each time was given the power to escape their clutches. It was only when the 'His time had come' in God's sight, that the circumstances were permitted, and in the event itself, Satan possessed Judas in order to turn Jesus over to the authorities. Again, it could have happened any other way, but circumstances & Providence determined that the act of betrayal would be permitted, because that thought had stirred in the heart of Judas more than once I suspect, and it was only at the auspicious time that the betrayal was 'activated' as the means by which Jesus would be betrayed.

I don't believe Jesus knew when the betrayal would occur, though He knew in advance that He would be betrayed. It's a bit of a mental gymnastics session which aids understanding in this matter, but basically anything we do which is actively enabled by God, requires a true act of the will before Providence moulds the circumstances into whatever they will be. Just as God's call must be answered by us specifically through choice, the decision to betray Jesus came through an act of volition, at which moment Satan entered Judas & possessed him, so as to carry out the act which Satan had wanted to & tried to complete several times previously. Satan had no foreknowledge of the resurrection plan, because as stated in scripture, if he had known, he would never have sent Jesus to the cross, he would have tried to destroy Him/His ministry some other way.

So in essence, although I acknowledge that the perfected work of salvation is the result of the gift & direct grace of God towards us, in that we cannot achieve salvation on our own, I maintain that in order to inherit salvation there must be something of ourselves in the 'transaction', as in, we ourselves as free beings must in some way move towards God through our own efforts, before the work of salvation can proceed within us by Providence, showing up in the interior & exterior circumstances of our lives through the faith which our contact with God produces in us.

Otherwise we are automatons & free will does not exist, surely?

This is why I suggest that God's call has gone out, perhaps to all the Earth, such that every person has a subconscious awareness that they should pay heed to the spiritual drives emphasised in the lives of all, to some extent. And yet, in the minds of many, that call is minimised, deflected & ignored, worth nothing to them, as they instead focus on life according to their own constructs of morality, ethics, money, enjoyment, etc. In scripture it is said that:

I have seen the burden that God has laid upon the sons of men to occupy them. He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men

Ecclesiastes 3:11

Which seems to indicate the nature of God's call - He puts awareness of eternity in our hearts, with the glory & majesty of God's creation testifying alongside that call to the beauty of His eternal nature - it's then up to us to respond to the validity of the concept, reasoning whether there is something we should do as a result/ a God whom we should seek out - this being a natural imperative, manifestly important in our lives, potentially thus with respect to the prospect of life everlasting.

I'm interested in hearing from our resident experts (Lazarus Short, I'm looking at you) to determine precisely what the relationship is between our own free will & the sovereign will of God, in that 'salvation transaction' which I hypothesise must contain at least the motive force of our will, activated by our own choice, before the gift of God - which is perfected salvation - can be applied by God's Providence in our lives & in our innermost being.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
Can you choose to stay present with what is present?

Can you stop seeing?

Are you eternally present?

If you believe you are a person that moves through time......look again.

It's such a misunderstanding..... it's such a big joke....

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
I would be interested in knowing what book you are reading?


God is what is seeing and God is what is appearing as reality.

This that is.........here now is alone.

What appears here is the manifestation.... . it's the one whole compete life.

But thought which appears now speaks as if there is 'something' a part from life....... a 'you' that is separate.

That illusory 'you' seeks competeness/wholeness and believes that if it does things correctly that it will occur.

It will never occur........ because it already is....... it's just the misunderstanding that keeps it hidden.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

So in essence, although I acknowledge that the perfected work of salvation is the result of the gift & direct grace of God towards us, in that we cannot achieve salvation on our own, I maintain that in order to inherit salvation there must be something of ourselves in the 'transaction', as in, we ourselves as free beings must in some way move towards God through our own efforts, before the work of salvation can proceed within us by Providence, showing up in the interior & exterior circumstances of our lives through the faith which our contact with God produces in us.

Absolutely. That's what the Bible tells us. Even the angels, who absolutely know who God is from the time of their creation have the ability to accept or reject Him with the free will that was given them also.

Jude 1:3-7

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

This message is not directed to you but to ATS:


A true Christian knows that predestination is real and knows if he/she belongs to God.

Have you not heard the call? Has it not been revealed to you? Has God not revealed himself to you through the Holy Spirit?

If you have doubts about your salvation and where you are heading that is a real concern you should be concerned with.

Are you a slave of Christ? Do you know its meaning? Is Christ your master and you his slave? A holy priest in service?

How many gods do you serve other than God himself (This includes the Trinity 1 John 5:7)

Have you surrendered your free will and taken on God's will to be done?

Do you worship HIM every day and night in a way where the Holy Spirit reveals HIMSELF?

Do you follow man's doctrines and traditions? Like pagan holidays, false teachers, or the Roman Catholic Church and its idols. Man is to worship one God though many have many gods.

You can serve only one master though many serve multiple masters.

I refuse to sugar coat my messages or tickle your ears.

As I have said many years ago....there are children of God and children of Satan who walk on this rock....Genesis 3:15

To walk in faith is to know not to debate.



a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

a reply to: DeathSlayer
"Dr. David R. Hawkins: How to Become the Witness"


Not that anyone could 'become' the witness.......witnessing is occuring but is overlooked....

Ever heard the expression that it going to hit or hurt so bad, that our own mothers or ancestors would feel it?

I think it more of the case of free will an choices, however, once a die casted, there won't be much freedom from it, called ot fate or destiny if suits your fancy. Only acceptance realistically.

I find the Heavens are to slow for us specks, so slow, that God always juggle things an keep up. Thing is though, it never ever that far behind.

a reply to: Proto88

Ever heard the expression that it going to hit or hurt so bad, that our own mothers or ancestors would feel it?

No.
What does it mean?

Like 'The tale of Two Wolves' I think we are born with both evil and good in our DNA. Satan, to me, isn't some evil dude that sits on my shoulder and whispers in my ear; he was imbued in our DNA when the apple was eaten.

I think we all are pre-destined to live the very best life we've been offered- but it's a choice. Judas was predestined to be a glorious disciple, and by choice ( free will) betrayed Christ. Neither God nor the devil made him do it; it came from his own thinking and actions. Sure, God knew what would happen- but had no part if 'making' Judas betray Christ, any more than the Satan did.

There is always a consequence for everything we do in life, and our own actions determine whether we fulfill our destiny or not. I recently watched a crime show where a very gifted 16 y/o violin player was destined to go to Juilliard School of Music, when he decide to defile and kill a young classmate he'd had a crush on. Too much mental focus was given to the evil side of his nature and it's that mental perspective that became greater than the Spirit that was in him.

Being in the period of Grace, we're free to follow whichever Spirit we choose, and there are known results written in The Word for each of those choices.

Just my musings on the topic- yours may vary.

It going to suck, so much so, that like Love, it defies time an space.

Concerning Calvinism and TULIP
biblereasons.com...
Molenism
www.gotquestions.org...
Arminianism
www.gotquestions.org...

I believe God is sovereign, as well explained in the bible but like a good parent, He has allowed us freewill, self determination
God is love, love is not controlling, self absorbed or manipulative
Grace is a gift that must be accepted to be received, if not accepted then God has no option but to deny grace. It is clearly on offer to all.

the catch is the bible is written in a language we dont fully comprehend so, many details have been confused. What we can rely on, I firmly believe is that God is love and He has shown the extent of His love.

Remember this: God is the Creator. He is Sovereign over His creation.

He is also, in many ways, beyond our ability to fully and perfectly understand.

He is Sovereign, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows the outcome of all things before their beginning. He knew the outcome of creation and the history of mankind before Adam was formed from the dust of the earth.

He also has given us the ability to think, to reason, and has made us responsible for our decisions.

I do not understand how the two interplay.

I do not believe that it is all up to each human, free of divine purpose and will.

But I also do not believe that we are simply puppets, having our strings pulled and completely unable to control our destiny.

There are theological factions that argue for either extreme. I've seen a singing group at some religious convention singing a "hymn" that glorifies "free will." I've heard ultra-"reformed" types spouting the idea that we are no more than complex marionettes acting out a script. I disagree with both, mainly because such types on both ends of the spectrum claim to have an eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being all figured out. The hubris in that position is just sounding!

Somehow, in the context of eternity and divine wisdom, it all works out. Forget fully understanding how. Accept that God is God and He is good and all this creation is by Him, through Him and for Him, and it's end is, always has been and will be his glory, and rest in faith.

Michael Card wrote a line in the song God's Own Fool,

So surrender the hunger to say you must know
Have the courage to say I believe

That does not mean that ours is a "blind faith;" on the contrary, mine is a very informed faith. It does mean, however, that there are things about God that I simply cannot wrap my mind around because ... well ... He is GOD.

"our own free will has something do do with the salvation"

I would argue it has everything to do with salvation. If we desire to taste the apple. Those desires will restrict our conciousness to the material realm. If we no longer lust for sensational desires. Our conciousness, God willing, will open to the spiritual realm. That is how I comprehend the parable of the pearls. We can either believe in our own minds desires or believe in Christ conciousness. But we cannot eat cake and have it too.

originally posted by: glend
"our own free will has something do do with the salvation"

I would argue it has everything to do with salvation. If we desire to taste the apple. Those desires will restrict our conciousness to the material realm. If we no longer lust for sensational desires. Our conciousness, God willing, will open to the spiritual realm. That is how I comprehend the parable of the pearls. We can either believe in our own minds desires or believe in Christ conciousness. But we cannot eat cake and have it too.

But there's this: people who vehemently support the idea of absolute free will are willing to pray to God that an unbeliever who rejects the Christian faith come to belief.

That very prayer invokes God violating the unveliever's own supposed absolute and sovereign free will and imposing divine will and purpose over it. Wouldn't it be more philosophically and practically consistent to not pay for the conversion of an unbeliever and let that God-given free will take its course?

I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out the inconsistency of people who sometimes strongly hold a position but then violate it when it seems suitable.

As I said previously, I see a mystery where we are given freedom to choose and are responsible for those choices, but divine will and predestination play into it in a way we cannot grasp from this side of the curtain.

You, yourself, expressed this mystery (perhaps unconsciously). You started out v saying that "it has everything to do with salvation. If we desire to taste the apple. Those desires will restrict our conciousness to the material realm." Then you added, "Our conciousness, God willing, will open to the spiritual realm."

Yes ... and yes. Again, it is a mystery. Don't try to decipher or understand it.

:

a reply to: incoserv

I understand your point but don't see any harm in praying for the well being of others. I suspect those prayers can only result in an etheral event causing the unbeliever to question their own materialistic worldview. Those prayers cannot intervene with the unbleievers God given free will.

Consider those that say they desire to be with God. But spend 99.9% of their day desiring a new house, desiring a new car, desiring new cloths, desiring a new mobile phone, desiring coffee, desiring time for themselves, desiring ice-cream etc etc etc. That is why its called the pearl of "great price". We have to sell all we have (aka clense ALL our egotistical desires) before the devine will (pearl of great price) can enter our conciousness. Unbelievers will not make that jump until their spiritual desire is greater than all their worldly desires.

a reply to: glend

We have to sell all we have (aka clense ALL our egotistical desires) before the devine will (pearl of great price) can enter our conciousness.

What if consciousness is not 'yours'?

What if you don't have to sell or give away all that you have.......you just have to notice there never was a you that can have anything...

You are the witness.......not a participant subject 'out there'......


This is just 3 minutes......

Fate (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

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Does not the apostle Paul speak of Christians as being “predestinated”?

Rom. 8:28, 29: “We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained [“predestinated,” KJ] to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Also Eph. 1:5, 11) Yet, to these same ones, 2 Peter 1:10 says: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.” (If the individuals were predestinated to salvation, they could not possibly fail, regardless of what they did. Since effort is required on the part of the individuals, it must be the class that is foreordained. God purposed that the entire class would conform to the pattern set by Jesus Christ. Those selected by God to be part of that class, however, must prove faithful if they are actually to attain the reward set before them.)

Eph. 1:4, 5: “He chose us in union with him [Jesus Christ] before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (It is noteworthy that, at Luke 11:50, 51, Jesus parallels “the founding of the world” with the time of Abel. Abel is the first human who continued to have God’s favor throughout his life. Thus, it was after the rebellion in Eden but before the conception of Abel that God formed his purpose to produce a “seed” through which deliverance would be provided. [Gen. 3:15] God purposed that associated with the principal Seed, Jesus Christ, would be a group of his faithful followers who would share with him in a new government over the earth, the Messianic Kingdom.)

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Can Predestination Be Reconciled With God’s Love? (1995)

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PREDESTINED AS A CLASS

“Those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29, 30, New International Version) How should we understand the term “predestined” used by Paul in these verses?

Paul’s reasoning here is not a peremptory argument in favor of individual predestination. Earlier in our century, the Dictionnaire de théologie catholique explained Paul’s arguments (Romans, chapters 9-11) this way: “Increasingly, the prevailing opinion among Catholic scholars is that the actual concept of a predestination to eternal life has not been set out.” The same reference work then quotes M. Lagrange as saying: “The question primarily developed by Paul is not at all one of predestination and reprobation but merely that of the call of the Gentiles to the grace of Christianity, its antithesis being the incredulity of the Jews. . . . It concerns groups, Gentiles, Jews, and not specific individuals directly.”​—Italics ours. [whereislogic: the bolding is mine, cause this is the crucial point as already mentioned on the previous webpage I was quoting from]

More recently, The Jerusalem Bible offered the same conclusion concerning these chapters (Ro 9-11), stating: “The subject of these chapters, therefore, is not the problem of individual predestination to glory, or even to faith, but of Israel’s part in the development of salvation history, the only problem raised by the statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”

The last verses of Romans chapter 8 belong to the same context. Thus, these verses can justly remind us that God foresaw the existence of a class, or group, from among mankind that would be called to reign with Christ, as well as the requirements they would have to meet​—and this without designating ahead of time the specific individuals who would be chosen, for that would be contrary to his love and justice.

That last point is further explained in the rest of the article, the part I skipped.

More links and details here:

Predestination

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scriptures misapplied to support:

Genesis 25:23: rs 142-143

Deuteronomy 31:16-18: it-1 855

Ecclesiastes 3:2: ijwbq article 80; wp17.1 14; w09 4/1 26; w91 10/15 5-6; rs 138

John 6:64: it-1 858; rs 143

Acts 1:16-20: it-1 857-858

Romans 8:28-30: w95 2/15 3, 7; rs 143-144

Romans 9:10-13: it-1 852, 856

Ephesians 1:4, 5: it-1 852, 859; rs 144

2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14: it-1 859

1 Peter 1:1, 2: it-1 859

1 Peter 1:19, 20: it-1 858-859; w06 6/1 23-24

Revelation 17:8: it-2 468

I didn't copy paste the links, but all those codes are links if you go to that page. The 2 I quoted from are "w95 2/15 3, 7" (I only quoted the box on page 7 and skipped page 3) and "rs 143-144".

You may also want to have a look at:

Is Your Future Predestined? (Awake!—2009)

Many people believe that their life and future are predestined by a higher power. They feel that from conception to death, we all follow a script already written in the mind of God. ‘After all,’ they say, ‘God is all-powerful and all-knowing, or omniscient, so surely he must know every detail about the past, the present, and the future.’

WHAT do you think? Does God foreordain our life course and ultimate destiny? In other words, is free will genuine or just an illusion? What does the Bible say?

Total or Selective Foreknowledge?

The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to God’s having foreknowledge. He knows “from the beginning the finale,” says Isaiah 46:10. He even used human secretaries to record many prophecies. (2 Peter 1:21) What is more, those prophecies always come true because God has both the wisdom and the power to fulfill them in every detail. Hence, God can not only foreknow but also foreordain events whenever he chooses to do so. However, does God foreordain the destiny of every human or even the total number who will gain salvation? Not according to the Bible.

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number. [whereislogic: the bolded part takes us back to why my previous comment explains that the texts pointed to in the OP, Rom 8:28-30 and Eph 1:4,5, do not support individual predestination, but concerns a class, or group; therefore they do not conflict with the free will of individuals.]

Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. Jehovah exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

God’s control of his powers does not limit him or render him imperfect. In fact, it magnifies his greatness, and it endears him to us, for it shows that his sovereignty truly is exercised not only with omniscience and power but also with love and respect for the free will of his intelligent creation.

On the other hand, if God predetermines everything, including every nasty accident and vile deed that has ever happened, could we not rightly blame him for all the misery and suffering in the world? Thus, upon closer inspection, the teaching of predestination does not honor God, but casts a pall over him. It paints him as cruel, unjust, and unloving​—the very opposite of what the Bible says about him.​—Deuteronomy 32:4.

The Choice Is Yours

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