What's the origin of information in the genome?

originally posted by: Romeopsi
a reply to: neoholographic


Starred & Flagged!

I really like the explanation of the deck of cards and entropy.

Yes, it illustrate's a lot.

When a system is in it's lowest entropy state, there's little information available as opposed to high entropy states.

You get order and if you look at a diamond or a deck of cards A-K and all in the same suits, it looks good and ordered. But there's little information. So when you increase entropy and uncertainty, you increase what some call hidden information. So if you look at black hole entropy and the holographic universe, it's about when something falls into a black hole, information about what fell into the black hole is hidden in it's high entropy spread out over the event horizon.

So as entropy increases, there's more ways to arrange things like the deck of cards. So an intelligent mind that has knowledge of this information can create all kinds of card games.

This point to why a natural interpretation of evolution is impossible.

The card games that we come up with aren't natural entropy states of the cards. There games designed by intelligence. So when you look at poker, spades or go fish, the cards are following the rules of the game put in place by intelligence.

You will not see a deck of cards reach it's lowest entropy state or reach equilibrium and then spontaneously start playing games of poker or gin rummy. This is because these games only occur because an intelligent mind creates the rules to these games because it can reduce uncertainty and increase knowledge that isn't even a natural entropy state of the system.

You can look at anything and see this. A car is not a natural entropy state of it's parts. It's designed by intelligence that takes the parts and makes a car. A car isn't natural. It's an intelligent design.

This is the same with us. We're not a natural state of entropy. We're designed by intelligence. Think about the proteins in your body. They're not natural states. They're products of information encoded in the sequence of DNA.

So like we design cars and houses that aren't natural entropy states of it's parts, we're designed by God. So the body that we're in houses are spiritual nature. We have the breathe of life.

If we were natural states of entropy, we can just put amino acids in their lowest entropy states and viola, all of the proteins in our body would just occur.

The fact is, our bodies our purely information encoded in sequences of DNA. This intelligent design tells the parts the rules to come together and Create us and the diversity of species that we see like our intelligent design tells the parts of the cards the rules to come together while playing spades or poker.

Scientist know this and so they try to come up with RNA worlds, pre-RNA worlds and magical soups. This is because if you just have the information encoded in DNA with nothing preceding it, then it's clear intelligent design.

So they come up with these fantastical stories that say there was a pre-something that existed before DNA and before it died out it decided to encode itself and create a code so it can live on purely as information.

We know this is false because the parts of our bodies are not natural entropy states. They're products of intelligent design.

Look at the parts of a heart and the parts of an engine.





It's obvious that these are designed systems. This means you couldn't take the parts of an engine or the parts of a heart, put them in their lowest entropy states and viola a heart or an engine emerges. A feature of intelligent design is that it's parts are not natural entropy states of the system.

So diamonds are naturally a low entropy state that occurs in nature but diamond watches are not.

So if you take parts of the system that goes from DNA to Protein, it's not natural. This is why I asked about the connection between nucleotides and amino acids. The gentic code, start, stop codons, transcription and translation are not natural entropy states of nucleotides. In fact, the sequences of DNA has to be encoded with modular molecular machinary to read the information encoded on it's sequence and encoded with information that regulates the expression.

Think about that!

How does nature regulate the expression of genes? How does it know what to regulate? Why does it regulate the expression? We see this with intelligent design.

We regulate the expression in a recipe, building a car or building a smartTV. Again, this isn't nature regulating the expression, it's information encoded in the sequence of DNA that regulates the expression.

GLORY TO GOD!

a reply to: neoholographic

Your words, your ideas, are resonating with me. And this is no small statement, I assure you. As the by-product of an inflexible, aggressive protestant upbringing, I have spent the majority of my life vehemently opposed to religion in all guises. As such, a part of me reflexively dismisses your conclusions, particularly regarding deified architects and grand designs thereof.

However, as you"re surely aware, there is a vast difference between religion and spirituality. Likewise, the difference between belief in a supreme being and a higher consciousness. I simply cannot accept that there exists nothing in our reality greater than ourselves. Not necessarily superior, simply larger, more significant according to whatever metric of ethereal measure may detail such comparisons.

To better clarify, I have long suspected the existence of something both infinitely bigger and yet still an integral part of us. Hopefully that makes sense, seems these thoughts are a bit more difficult to articulate than I would have imagined. Odd that...

At any rate, your thoughts on genetics, information theory, coding, entropy, etc. are striking deep chords. Same with the more philosophical approach taken by TzarChasm in response to your ideas. Though said poster's words may have been intended as rebuttal, for specifics yet clear, the two seemingly disparate perspectives are, in my mind, almost interconnected.

Not that the two positions form any sort of integrated whole, but rather that both ideas share certain significant components that are, together, instrumental to a more accurate understanding of... existence? Reality? Purpose? Not really sure just yet, this material is WAY beyond my typical depth of thought.

Nevertheless, I still wanted to make this conversation's personal impact known. I believe the ideas being discussed here are NOT, by any means, trivial. In fact, I dare suggest that such discourse as this may ultimately prove vital to the whole of our species. So please, by all means, carry on.

a reply to: ChayOphan

Thank you for your words and I agree, this is very important topic. I will definitely continue talking about this. You said:

I simply cannot accept that there exists nothing in our reality greater than ourselves.

I agree!

originally posted by: ChayOphan

Nevertheless, I still wanted to make this conversation's personal impact known. I believe the ideas being discussed here are NOT, by any means, trivial. In fact, I dare suggest that such discourse as this may ultimately prove vital to the whole of our species. So please, by all means, carry on.

I agree. To realize there is a Great Architect behind the majesty of this place we were born into is an important turning point. Before we were hopeless, supposing this was all some sort of random accident, but when we notice the Design then we can begin to see there is a plan after all. If this Being created us, then it certainly is capable of persisting our consciousness into new things for all of eternity. Even typing this brings my heart great joy.

It also helps that someone selflessly died on a cross for us to validate all these things that are emerging within us (also sorry for your upbringing and how they defamed His great name)

i kinda understood that the DNA coding developed after the Chromasone and Gene system was not sufficient to advanced-evolved creatures in the Earth biosphere

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: Romeopsi
a reply to: neoholographic


Starred & Flagged!

I really like the explanation of the deck of cards and entropy.

Yes, it illustrate's a lot.

NO it doesn't. A deck of cards has no 'lowest state of entropy' as to sequence. Once sequence of cards is EXACTLY the same as EVERY OTHER sequence of cards. There is exactly as much information in a suit order sequence as there is in a non-suit order sequence.

Your 'analogy' fails to illuminate any kind of meaningful relationship what-so-ever.

Not only is your map not the territory, it isn't even a map.

originally posted by: rnaa

Your 'analogy' fails to illuminate any kind of meaningful relationship what-so-ever.

Not only is your map not the territory, it isn't even a map.

If it's so easy then write a new viable genome that can persist biological organisms through an indefinite number of generations and get your Nobel Prize.

If random chance can do it, then surely the human intellect would be able to do it.

a reply to: rnaa

Don't feed them. I've noticed their post count drop considerably since most of the normal people have stopped contributing to these happy club posts.

Leave them be and they'll soon run out of steam.

originally posted by: TerraLiga
a reply to: rnaa

Don't feed them. I've noticed their post count drop considerably since most of the normal people have stopped contributing to these happy club posts.

Leave them be and they'll soon run out of steam.

Nah these types of posts are getting more productive participation than I have ever seen on ATS. As well as more people coming to realize that biological organisms require a Logical Creator.

Mutant ape theory is progressively being shown to not be possible. 73,000 generations of E. Coli in a lab and still no signs of it becoming anything other than E. Coli. It's hard to prove a negative but that about does it.