Phantom Braking on Electric Vehicles

originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: Edumakated
My understanding of the OP was that these vehicles were doing this automatically even while under the driver's control. I don't trust machinery enough to just sit back and enjoy the ride.

electrek.co...

It highlighted a significant increase in Tesla owners reporting dangerous phantom braking events on Autopilot. Phantom braking is a term used to describe when an advanced driver assistance system (ADAS) or a self-driving system applies the brakes for no good reason. The system can be falsely detecting an object on the road or anticipating a collision that won’t actually happen and apply the brake to try to avoid it.

originally posted by: chris_stibrany
a reply to: The2Billies

Can't you turn that crap off?

Depends on the car. Higher optioned cars may have the o off option, but lower trim cars may not.
My VW Passat has traction control, I am not able to turn it off, nor can I turn off the auto braking (which does not like cars that make turns in from me and it will hit the brakes) but the higher trim Passats do have defeatable safety features.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Wonder if Subaru has issues?
www.subaru.com...

I have a few friends with these Eyesight Assistance Sensors. Their year and models have the sensors in the windshield, but for some reason Subaru didn't activate them. Odd I know, seems like a waste of money. But the following year all models had standard EDA. Haven't heard any complaints locally.


Edit: a reply to: Mandroid7
Apparently we have a complaint.👍🏼

Subaru does stink👍🏼

Getting slush or frost on the sensors can mess them up. The eyesight on the Subaru goes out when the window fogs up or is not cleaned and frosts outside. During a snowstorm it goes off as it also does on some days when the sun is low and peaking through the trees throwing shaddows on the car. I cannot see automatic driving cars being usable up here, they would continually be messing up.

a reply to: 1947boomer

Teslas, like almost all modern cars continuously monitor the rotation of all wheels and can detect when one or more are losing traction. They also have accelerometers on the car so they can tell whether the car is traveling in the direction the wheels are pointing.

How many components are there for monitoring that? Or in other words how many moving parts [or calibrated sensors] to go wrong? All of those bells & whistles are fine as long as they are properly maintained, but not everyone keeps up on that. That is not even getting into what different environmental factors can affect the various sensors. Heat and cold have affects on sensors like that and a one size fits all approach is a fools approach. That is not even getting into the problem of just one processor being bad from the factory, you know these modern cars are all loaded to the gills with computers right?

a reply to: JIMC5499

Lol.. thanks to the deflector knob on the mirrors.

*cough*
Some of us didn't have rear view mirrors as our trucks had a rifle rack with both 308 and fishing rods mounted across the rear window. Long drive from the mills in Homestead To Shaler, 2 rivers and 23 Cricks!!

a reply to: JAGStorm

This can happen in any ICE driven car too because of the new assistance systems that are slowly mandatory. Like the automatic emergency brake system that should protect people walking in front of the car / into the lane.

These systems are prone to failures when the radar sensor looking forward detects a vehicle turning off the lane sharply, as a solid, non moving obstacle. It will then apply the brakes. I had a couple of situations where my input was overriden by the computer and suddenly the brake pedal vanishes under my feet.

Normally these systems warn audibly and wait for a kind of input, like braking or steering input that will disable the countdown. I had customers asking me to disable them but I can't by law. I can technically but I can not by law.

It's nothing to do with EV, ICE vehicles all have these systems now too.

Yup, autopilots can screw up, but the bottom line is that you screw up more--much more. Tesla autopilot is much safer than you are. If you "refuse to buy an EV with autopilot" because you think they are "unsafe" then you're wrong, maybe dead wrong. You're being emotional or stupid or both.

Here ya go

When I read stuff like this thread I wonder why anyone ever takes ATS seriously.

I have absolutely stopped using active cruise control. I have experienced multiple instances of the brakes suddenly applying if a car in front of you happens to drift over slightly. Normally you would tap the brakes and steer away slightly, until the other car corrects. Automated systems don't have the same ability to see what is happening. Scares the crap out of you, and could easily lead to being rear ended. I think the self driving car concept on most US roads is a bad idea.

originally posted by: schuyler
Yup, autopilots can screw up, but the bottom line is that you screw up more--much more. Tesla autopilot is much safer than you are. If you "refuse to buy an EV with autopilot" because you think they are "unsafe" then you're wrong, maybe dead wrong. You're being emotional or stupid or both.

Here ya go

When I read stuff like this thread I wonder why anyone ever takes ATS seriously.

Your link doesn't work.
Also there is obviously a serious problem which is why the government is doing an investigation.
Also just like something else we've recently dealt with, there is NO WAY to quantify that Tesla autopilot is "much" safer
than we are because it's too new, and there aren't enough on the actual roads. They can guess, that's about it. From what we can see so far with this small amount, there are problems.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for tech, and am usually an early adopter. I just think there are still a lot of kinks that have to be worked out. I'd rather not be the test subject doing 70 on the highway!

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: JAGStorm
After these shenanigans I will NEVER buy an ev.
F this sham and the ahole politicians that have delivered it.

Problem is I doubt any of us will 'get' to own a car or anything by 2030 , if these a**hole pricks have their way.
"you will own nothing and be happy" BS . This would include cars. Our own bodies too don't forget , we saw that with the shots. It will literally be hell on earth. Depending on your 'social credit score' the EV will determine if it will drive to where you are to pick you up and drop you of where you need to go
That's just transportation. This 'social credit score' will also determine your 'right' to buy food or rent a place (you certainly won't own your own home anymore)

Sorry to be a debbie downer, but I don't see a future for any of us, unless the majority of people wake up to this reality that will happen if we don't stop complying NOW

a reply to: ancientlight
Stop complying now?
I have had no jab. Who is complying?

Of course they can't navigate black ice, but neither can you!

originally posted by: 00018GE
Of course they can't navigate black ice, but neither can you!

Yes I can, I know in my local area where those areas are.

I've seen people in my neighbors yard, so I know when hitting that curve to slow down and go a bit on the edge.
So far I haven't landed in her yard so I'm doing ok.

I had this happen with a Tesla infront of me some time ago .

Guy drove close past parked cars goes to a full stop all of the sudden with screaming tires.

Probably anti collision detection kicked in.

Nearly rear ended him stupid Tesla toys.

a reply to: shooterbrody

Those asleep . I didn't get the jab either, not talking to us/you

a reply to: JAGStorm

On ice, if someone drives gentle (= not much torque) it's all about weight shifts that will make your tires loose traction. Weight shift means when you apply the brakes, the momentum of the chassis is pushing forward giving you even more grip on the front, while the rear get's lighter. But if it's too much, the grip will break and you loose traction and slide. The same applies for acceleration, where the front get's lighter.

It only then becomes a problem when that grip is lost or during curves. When you drive a curve the suspension not only smooths the ride, it also tries to mechanically (through the susp. setup) allocate for the lost grip. Tires generally do not want to drive curves, a certain amount of grip needs to be broken, especially on the rear axle where the turning momentum is the biggest.

A smooth steering input and correct braking in front of the curve entry can make a lot room for safety. Also rather drive a wider angle outside than cutting inside helps avoiding slippage in the first place. That's for example why on race tracks and rain (= lower grip) one rather drives a bit more outside in curves, where there is less rubber and oil. This makes for similar slippery conditions.

Because it's better to choose a wider angle and not slide than go tight but slide. This way you keep control. It also gives the suspension more time to work. Because it doesn't only feather the ride, it also changes slight angle so the plateau where the tire meets the street in curves. Especially on the front, check out how the wheel is angled when you turn the steering wheel to one side.

You will notice that the outside wheel, that has the most weight shift to handle is angled in a way that it stems into the ground.

In short: Where your body want's to go is where the weight shift is directed.

originally posted by: The2Billies
a reply to: JAGStorm

This doesn't affect just self driving cars.

My mothers new Camry has "braking assist" and regularly sees a shadow and slams on her brakes on the same spot going up a hill near our house.

My fairly new car (Honda) also has "braking assist" and sometimes slams on the brakes at random times.

I've got a 2018 Honda Ridgeline with the driver assist dealios. In the 4 years I've owned the vehicle never once have I had the breaking assist engage when it shouldn't. It has nearly 60,000 miles on it at this point.

Do you have anything hanging on your review mirror? I was told by the sales folks at time of purchase to make sure not to hang anything on the mirror as that's where all the sensors are located and could potentially interfere with the driver assist functions.

If you don't have any dice dangling, I recommend you get it looked it.

a reply to: GenerationGap

These systems are mounted low on the bumper normally, because of the way how they work. This compensates for reflections as they are mostly for sidewalker protection and kids. With Windshield mounted you have a dead spot.

Under the windshield where the mirror sits, you will find sensors like lighting conditions, oncoming traffic detection (for like disable high beam automatic and enable again) rain, garage door systems, parking cameras and such.

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: GenerationGap

These systems are mounted low on the bumper normally, because of the way how they work. This compensates for reflections as they are mostly for sidewalker protection and kids. With Windshield mounted you have a dead spot.

Under the windshield where the mirror sits, you will find sensors like lighting conditions, oncoming traffic detection (for like disable high beam automatic and enable again) rain, garage door systems, parking cameras and such.

Front Sensor Camera
We’re stating the obvious when we say you need to clear your windshield of snow and ice in order to drive safely. However, a little extra care is needed in the top-middle portion of your windshield as this is where Honda Sensing camera is located for all models equipped with Honda Sensing. Since the camera is on the inside of your vehicle, clean your windshield as you normally would using your defroster, ice scraper, and/or snow broom
Look here:
www.bianchihonda.com...

Again, don't dangle things from your mirror.