History of Ukraine and Russian relationships

There has been a lot of talk are Ukrainians Russians or Ukrainians. Next video explains very well why Ukrainians wanted independence from Russia, they had really hardship being under Russian rule when In 1932 and 1933, millions of Ukrainians were killed in the Holodomor, a man-made famine engineered by the Soviet government of Joseph Stalin.
Nationalists were either executed or sent to prison. Russia played dirty and ugly all those years when Ukraine was under USSR rule and Putin says Ukrainians are Russian what a joke, how can any country genocide its own people( unless they were not ? ).


History starts at 2 minutes mark


Next one is about the Holodomor genocide, USSR denied there is a famine in Ukraine and estimation of victims go from 3 to 10 million. Historian Robert Conquest wrote a book about it "Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and Terror Famine " he came in conclusion that famines were planned and seamless part of agriculture collectivization. Some historians see Holodor as a social disintegration of the Ukrainian nation and political terror.



Do you still think Ukrainians are Russian ?

the only current problem Ukraine seems to have is the Nazi contingency, FWIW I get it, the Russians were brutal bastards thus the Germans were looked upon as their saviors, rightfully so. For the rest of the world though we had different viewpoints on the Nazis.

therefore while we don't trust Putin at all, it's difficult to get completely behind Ukraine as is either.

The west wants war to divert from their crimes and Russia are the whipping boys.

a reply to: dollukka
The author of the video chooses not to talk about the very earliest, "often politicised", history of the relationship. But that omission distorts our understanding of the relationship between the two.

In the first place, there was originally a whole spectrum of slavic groups across eastern Europe, and the Polish and Russian states grew up as coalitions of groups in different parts of the spectrum. That is why the "just" boundary between Russia and Poland has always been rather problematic; each state had a basic "core", and they have been competing, historically, for the allegiance of the groups betwen the two cores. Such as the Belorussians and the Ukrainians.

Another complication is that the original Russian state was based on Kiev. In a sense, the Ukraine is the first version of Russia. The real heart of the state was the river-trade route between Sweden and Constantinople, but the Russian world expanded into the northern forests east and west of that line.

The Tartar invasions killed off that first version of Russia. In the long term, Russian identity rebuilt itself around the northern city of Moscow, which Tartar power could not reach so easily. This region had a slightly different ethnicity from the Ukraine. But it should be easy to understand why Russian sentiment might regard the Ukraine as naturally "part of Russia".

The video begins history in the seventeenth century, when the Polish-Lithuanian combined state was powerful and the Czars were weak. So the Polish king held authority far eastwards into Belorussia and south-eastwards over Ukraine. The Ukrainians rebelled and for a time managed to be independent of both rival powers, but eventally they fell under the Czars.

The struggle over the more northern terrritories continued into the twentieth century. A newly re-independent Poland managed to conquer a large swathe from the Bolsheviks, which Stalin could not get back until they were being distracted by Adolf Hitler. The fall of the Soviet Union had the effect of recreating the old band of "buffer states" between Poland and Muscovy, but current events show that this back-and-forth history is not over yet.

a reply to: dollukka

You concentrate all this stuff on the past ancient times................. That's gone Dollukka, old stuff geneations ago!

There good ann bad in all peoples / countries.

My Magyar mate (who ironically fled the ruskies in 1950's to Britain) told me how as the nipper he used to watch the massacres of Jews in the killing fields of Hungary. Thing is those massacres he witnessed were carried out BY UKRANIAN FORCES who then put out in the media the atrocities were carried out by retreating German Nazis!

Good and bad in all peoples but the present is the important thing.

The real conspiracy is how when a democratically elected government in 2014 decided to relinquish the lean towards the west and throw their lot in with Moscow, just by chance at that exact point in time a coup occurred and replaced them with a western leaning government real conspiracy

originally posted by: dollukka
millions of Ukrainians were killed in the Holodomor, a man-made famine engineered by the Soviet government of Joseph Stalin.

Was Stalin Russian?

Let the Ukrainians present their claims to the Georgians.

By the way, no one denies that there was a famine in those years (it was not only in Ukraine and the USSR in the 1930s), but no one has yet presented (I have not seen) any directives of the Soviet government regarding the destruction of Ukrainians by famine and the corresponding reports of subordinate authorities that they complied with such directives.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Well past due Putin´s opinions of Greater Russia, have you read any Putin´s ideas and dreaming of areas once was under "Rurikid rule" over 1000 years ago. As i stated beforet those times there were very small kingdoms and mostly villages.. no real nations.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Well past due Putin´s opinions of Greater Russia, have you read any Putin´s ideas and dreaming of areas once was under "Rurikid rule" over 1000 years ago. As i stated beforet those times there were very small kingdoms and mostly villages.. no real nations.

There never has been a "nation" as you put it in that region. Ukraine is an invention, it doesn't exist in reality. The peoples are just a mix of Greeks, Russians, romans, Romanians, Jewish, Welsh, Polish, Turkish, you name it, but there is no as a Ukranian really, just an invented nation that being honest and realistic about it woulod be best dissolved and split between what it is in reality Poland and Russia

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

All countries are inventions then, all countries have somewhat mixed populations there is no exceptions. Scandinavia is no exeption. Great Britain is invention not different from others celts, scots, it has history of Romans, Danes etc. Russia is no exception nor is US. There is no country with only ingenious people or are there ? So let just state why not split every country by its demographics then. Saying Russia has a right to take part of Ukraine and Poland another part is insane, Ukraine has stated its independence like many other countries which were under Soviet rule.
Are you saying they do not have a grounds to do that.. that they are ingenious Russians then ?

All those countries and their citizens were poorly treated by USSR, treated as second class citizens in their ancestors land.

Anyone who says they do not have a right to have their own country is living in the past .. Divide et impera

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

So a genocide that occurred in the 1930s is ancient history not worth discussing but a state that has existed since 1917 is imaginary and has no right tti exist?

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

So a genocide that occurred in the 1930s is ancient history not worth discussing but a state that has existed since 1917 is imaginary and has no right tti exist?

Is history.......... Throw it in the bin and get on with the present.

Israel had a holocaust too back then. But they have excellent relations with the Germany these days. Others should do thye same.

The past is the past. We live now

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

So a genocide that occurred in the 1930s is ancient history not worth discussing but a state that has existed since 1917 is imaginary and has no right tti exist?

Is history.......... Throw it in the bin and get on with the present.

Israel had a holocaust too back then. But they have excellent relations with the Germany these days. Others should do thye same.

The past is the past. We live now

Well your opinion is from the past ... you are splitting Ukraine in Half ... Divide et impera.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

All countries are inventions then, all countries have somewhat mixed populations there is no exceptions. Scandinavia is no exeption. Great Britain is invention not different from others celts, scots, it has history of Romans, Danes etc. Russia is no exception nor is US. There is no country with only ingenious people or are there ? So let just state why not split every country by its demographics then.

Exactly the whole ideas of nation state is an invention. They don'y exist really. Just in the minds of human beings. Where is the nation state for a sparrow hawk? Where is the nation state for rain? Where is the nation state for monkeys? It doesn't exist and is a very modern invention. There were no borders 100 years ago. People could go anywhere, controls never existed and the whole concepts of national states is nonsense and racism / political economics gone mad

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

All countries are inventions then, all countries have somewhat mixed populations there is no exceptions. Scandinavia is no exeption. Great Britain is invention not different from others celts, scots, it has history of Romans, Danes etc. Russia is no exception nor is US. There is no country with only ingenious people or are there ? So let just state why not split every country by its demographics then.

the word you are looking for is indigenous



So the whole world has to get involved because a region with a history of fighting is fighting again, that's the problem, that's the issue.

Humans have poor self-control, once Russia slaps down Ukraine what will Ukraine do?

It's not right or wrong it's just the truth

a reply to: putnam6

Thanks ! not english speaking here.. these things happens time to time ( not seeing you as a grammar nazi

a reply to: dollukka

ha its already happening and EU gets the west Ukraine to strip out its industry and replant Germans industrials and pay the locals a pittance all the time charging the locals Berliner prices for their bread and butter. Ask any east EU member today if it's a good idea to let the Germans become the paymasters while also letting them set the prices for consumables. Then Russia gets the east and everything is back to normal.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Eu is not a country. Besides due future plans of fixing climate change i doubt that EU wants to put whole lot of money fixing Ukrainian industry to EU´s standards.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

A large part of the reason Israel and Germany have good relations is because Germany has paid billions in reparations and is committed to making sure their citizens know about the horrors of the Holocaust.

The same cannot be said about Russia's acknowledgment of the Holodomor. They pretend it never happened and Ukraine has never received any kind of reparations.

Even then it still took decades and Israel never established relations with East Germany. On top of that, the horrors of the Holocaust still influence many of Israel's policies.

The past is the past. We live now

Maybe you should tell that to Putin and everyone else who doesn't think Ukraine's existence is legitimate. They've existed as a state for over 100 years and have had their independence for 30.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Eu is not a country. Besides due future plans of fixing climate change i doubt that EU wants to put whole lot of money fixing Ukrainian industry to EU´s standards.

As good as a country and run like one increasingly too. Know where you're coming from on them not wanting to investment in Ukraine but the Germans do like a bit of slave labour to keep the Beemers and Audis churning out at competititive rates plus taking on primitive colonies, woops I mean countries, keeps the Euro weak and helps them sell sell sell.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

All countries are inventions then, all countries have somewhat mixed populations there is no exceptions. Scandinavia is no exeption. Great Britain is invention not different from others celts, scots, it has history of Romans, Danes etc. Russia is no exception nor is US. There is no country with only ingenious people or are there ? So let just state why not split every country by its demographics then.

Exactly

the whole ideas of nation state is an invention. They don'y exist really. Just in the minds of human beings. Where is the nation state for a sparrow hawk? Where is the nation state for rain? Where is the nation state for monkeys? It doesn't exist and is a very modern invention. There were no borders 100 years ago. People could go anywhere, controls never existed and the whole concepts of national states is nonsense and racism / political economics gone mad

100 years ago there were certainly borders it was 1920, FWIW even among the indigenous tribes there were boundaries and areas belonging to different tribes, it's not just a human thing is an animal thing, dogs do mark their territory, so do lots of animals.