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Where does order come from in evolution?
page: 1share:
I often here these debate about the 2nd law of thermodynamics and those who accept a natural interpretation of evolution say the 2nd law doesn't apply
because we're in an open system.
Where does it say an open system can put a system into it's lowest energy states without perfect knowledge of the system?
Dissipative systems like a tornado can form naturally. Dissipative systems like the brain can't form naturally. You have to come up with things like Boltzmann Brains.
These things get much deeper but it actually shows why God must exist. Let's start with how information and entropy are connected.
Entropy can be described as the measure of hidden information in a system. The higher the entropy and the more uncertainty which means more hidden information. This is why Claude Shannon defined information as the reduction of uncertainty and Shannon entropy is related to Boltzmann or thermodynamic entropy.
With these things in mind, it's easy to see how intelligence can reduce the uncertainty in a system and build the civilization we live in. For instance, take a deck of cards. Humans have perfect knowledge of the deck of cards, so we can order the cards into different games like spades, poker or go fish.
When you look at poker, there's the microstates that all of the 5 card hands can be in and then there's the macrostates like 2 pair or a full house. So only fewer microstates give you the macrostates of a full house than for 2 pair. So there's more ways to get dealt 2 pair than there is a full house so a full house is more valuable in a game of poker.
Humans know this because we have perfect knowledge of the deck of cards.
So ask yourself, what's more likely? A deck of cards spontaneuosly forming a full house or a human mind forming a full house?
Obviously, you can deal a deck of cards and on occasion, you will deal someone a full house. This is random. What's not random is the game of poker. It was designed by an intelligent mind. So in the game that was designed we say a full house beats 3 of a kind but this is because a full house has a lower probability of occurring than a 3 of a kind.
So a person can deal a bunch of 5 card hands and some of those hands will be a full house. An intelligent mind can take the cards and make a full house everytime by simply arranging the cards into a full house configuration.
This brings us to Boltzmann brains and then Maxwell's demon.
Boltzmann brains show why the universe shouldn't exist. As with the cards example, it's more likely that you get chaos than you get an entire universe fluctuating into existence. So it's more likely that what we think of as the universe is just a Boltzmann brain from the future having the false memory that it lived on a planet with 7 billion people than it is that an actual universe with 7 billion people formed.
The Boltzmann brain argument suggests that it is more likely for a single brain to spontaneously and briefly form in a void (complete with a memory of having existed in our universe) than it is for the universe to have come about as the result of a random fluctuation in a universe in thermal equilibrium.
In this physics thought experiment, a Boltzmann brain is a fully formed brain, complete with memories of a full human life in our universe, that arises due to extremely rare random fluctuations out of a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. Theoretically, over an extremely large but not infinite amount of time, by sheer chance, atoms in a void could spontaneously come together in such a way as to assemble a functioning human brain. Like any brain in such circumstances (the hostile vacuum of space with no blood supply or body), it would almost immediately stop functioning and begin to deteriorate.[1]
The idea is named after the Austrian physicist Ludwig Boltzmann (1844–1906), who, in 1896, published a theory that tried to account for the fact that humans find themselves in a universe that is not as chaotic as the budding field of thermodynamics seemed to predict. He offered several explanations, one of them being that the universe, even one that is fully random (or at thermal equilibrium), would spontaneously fluctuate to a more ordered (or low-entropy) state. It was first proposed as a reductio ad absurdum response to Boltzmann's early explanation for the low-entropy state of our universe.[2]
The Boltzmann brain gained new relevance around 2002, when some cosmologists started to become concerned that, in many theories about the Universe, human brains in the current universe appear to be vastly less likely than Boltzmann brains will be in the future; this leads to the conclusion that, statistically, humans are likely to be Boltzmann brains. Such a reductio ad absurdum argument is sometimes used to argue against certain theories of the Universe. When applied to more recent theories about the multiverse, Boltzmann brain arguments are part of the unsolved measure problem of cosmology. Physics, being an experimental science, uses the Boltzmann brain thought experiment as a tool for evaluating competing scientific theories.
en.wikipedia.org...
This is important to note. This problem stems from the fact that they're trying to explain how a universe like ours came to be and exist in light of the fact that it shouldn't exist.
When you understand the relationship between information and entropy, then this becomes clear. This is why I talked about the deck of cards first. Here's more:
In Boltzmann brain scenarios, the ratio of Boltzmann brains to "normal observers" is astronomically large. Almost any relevant subset of Boltzmann brains, such as "brains embedded within functioning bodies", "observers who believe they are perceiving 3 K microwave background radiation through telescopes", "observers who have a memory of coherent experiences", or "observers who have the same series of experiences as me", also vastly outnumber "normal observers". Therefore, under most models of consciousness, it is unclear that one can reliably conclude that oneself is not such a "Boltzmann observer", in a case where Boltzmann brains dominate the Universe.[4] Even under "content externalism" models of consciousness, Boltzmann observers living in a consistent Earth-sized fluctuation over the course of the past several years outnumber the "normal observers" spawned before a Universe's "heat death".[24]
As stated earlier, most Boltzmann brains have "abnormal" experiences; Feynman has pointed out that, if one knows oneself to be a typical Boltzmann brain, one does not expect "normal" observations to continue in the future.[4] In other words, in a Boltzmann-dominated Universe, most Boltzmann brains have "abnormal" experiences, but most observers with only "normal" experiences are Boltzmann brains, due to the overwhelming vastness of the population of Boltzmann brains in such a Universe.[25]
en.wikipedia.org...
Now there's some like Sean Carroll and others that try to get around this but their papers are filled with so many buts, ifs and maybes that they don't amount to much. As Brian Greene said:
Brian Greene states: "I am confident that I am not a Boltzmann brain. However, we want our theories to similarly concur that we are not Boltzmann brains, but so far it has proved surprisingly difficult for them to do so."
Here's a video by Brian Greene on Boltzmann Brains:
CONT'D
Where does it say an open system can put a system into it's lowest energy states without perfect knowledge of the system?
Dissipative systems like a tornado can form naturally. Dissipative systems like the brain can't form naturally. You have to come up with things like Boltzmann Brains.
These things get much deeper but it actually shows why God must exist. Let's start with how information and entropy are connected.
Entropy can be described as the measure of hidden information in a system. The higher the entropy and the more uncertainty which means more hidden information. This is why Claude Shannon defined information as the reduction of uncertainty and Shannon entropy is related to Boltzmann or thermodynamic entropy.
With these things in mind, it's easy to see how intelligence can reduce the uncertainty in a system and build the civilization we live in. For instance, take a deck of cards. Humans have perfect knowledge of the deck of cards, so we can order the cards into different games like spades, poker or go fish.
When you look at poker, there's the microstates that all of the 5 card hands can be in and then there's the macrostates like 2 pair or a full house. So only fewer microstates give you the macrostates of a full house than for 2 pair. So there's more ways to get dealt 2 pair than there is a full house so a full house is more valuable in a game of poker.
Humans know this because we have perfect knowledge of the deck of cards.
So ask yourself, what's more likely? A deck of cards spontaneuosly forming a full house or a human mind forming a full house?
Obviously, you can deal a deck of cards and on occasion, you will deal someone a full house. This is random. What's not random is the game of poker. It was designed by an intelligent mind. So in the game that was designed we say a full house beats 3 of a kind but this is because a full house has a lower probability of occurring than a 3 of a kind.
So a person can deal a bunch of 5 card hands and some of those hands will be a full house. An intelligent mind can take the cards and make a full house everytime by simply arranging the cards into a full house configuration.
This brings us to Boltzmann brains and then Maxwell's demon.
Boltzmann brains show why the universe shouldn't exist. As with the cards example, it's more likely that you get chaos than you get an entire universe fluctuating into existence. So it's more likely that what we think of as the universe is just a Boltzmann brain from the future having the false memory that it lived on a planet with 7 billion people than it is that an actual universe with 7 billion people formed.
The Boltzmann brain argument suggests that it is more likely for a single brain to spontaneously and briefly form in a void (complete with a memory of having existed in our universe) than it is for the universe to have come about as the result of a random fluctuation in a universe in thermal equilibrium.
In this physics thought experiment, a Boltzmann brain is a fully formed brain, complete with memories of a full human life in our universe, that arises due to extremely rare random fluctuations out of a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. Theoretically, over an extremely large but not infinite amount of time, by sheer chance, atoms in a void could spontaneously come together in such a way as to assemble a functioning human brain. Like any brain in such circumstances (the hostile vacuum of space with no blood supply or body), it would almost immediately stop functioning and begin to deteriorate.[1]
The idea is named after the Austrian physicist Ludwig Boltzmann (1844–1906), who, in 1896, published a theory that tried to account for the fact that humans find themselves in a universe that is not as chaotic as the budding field of thermodynamics seemed to predict. He offered several explanations, one of them being that the universe, even one that is fully random (or at thermal equilibrium), would spontaneously fluctuate to a more ordered (or low-entropy) state. It was first proposed as a reductio ad absurdum response to Boltzmann's early explanation for the low-entropy state of our universe.[2]
The Boltzmann brain gained new relevance around 2002, when some cosmologists started to become concerned that, in many theories about the Universe, human brains in the current universe appear to be vastly less likely than Boltzmann brains will be in the future; this leads to the conclusion that, statistically, humans are likely to be Boltzmann brains. Such a reductio ad absurdum argument is sometimes used to argue against certain theories of the Universe. When applied to more recent theories about the multiverse, Boltzmann brain arguments are part of the unsolved measure problem of cosmology. Physics, being an experimental science, uses the Boltzmann brain thought experiment as a tool for evaluating competing scientific theories.
en.wikipedia.org...
This is important to note. This problem stems from the fact that they're trying to explain how a universe like ours came to be and exist in light of the fact that it shouldn't exist.
When you understand the relationship between information and entropy, then this becomes clear. This is why I talked about the deck of cards first. Here's more:
In Boltzmann brain scenarios, the ratio of Boltzmann brains to "normal observers" is astronomically large. Almost any relevant subset of Boltzmann brains, such as "brains embedded within functioning bodies", "observers who believe they are perceiving 3 K microwave background radiation through telescopes", "observers who have a memory of coherent experiences", or "observers who have the same series of experiences as me", also vastly outnumber "normal observers". Therefore, under most models of consciousness, it is unclear that one can reliably conclude that oneself is not such a "Boltzmann observer", in a case where Boltzmann brains dominate the Universe.[4] Even under "content externalism" models of consciousness, Boltzmann observers living in a consistent Earth-sized fluctuation over the course of the past several years outnumber the "normal observers" spawned before a Universe's "heat death".[24]
As stated earlier, most Boltzmann brains have "abnormal" experiences; Feynman has pointed out that, if one knows oneself to be a typical Boltzmann brain, one does not expect "normal" observations to continue in the future.[4] In other words, in a Boltzmann-dominated Universe, most Boltzmann brains have "abnormal" experiences, but most observers with only "normal" experiences are Boltzmann brains, due to the overwhelming vastness of the population of Boltzmann brains in such a Universe.[25]
en.wikipedia.org...
Now there's some like Sean Carroll and others that try to get around this but their papers are filled with so many buts, ifs and maybes that they don't amount to much. As Brian Greene said:
Brian Greene states: "I am confident that I am not a Boltzmann brain. However, we want our theories to similarly concur that we are not Boltzmann brains, but so far it has proved surprisingly difficult for them to do so."
Here's a video by Brian Greene on Boltzmann Brains:
CONT'D
edit on 15-2-2022 by neoholographic because: (no reason given)
You can understand why this is troubling to atheist like Sean Carroll and others. It defies logic even though many of them believe in a fantasy
multiverse where all of your decisions are not your choices but just the consequence of the splitting of a universal wave function that they can't
show is physical.
The most likely scenario is, we were Created By God as the Bible tells us. This is because just like we have perfect knowledge of the cards and can design all of these different games, God has perfect knowledge of the universe and the positions every "particle" can be in, so he can Create us out of things like the dust of the ground. This is why this scripture is so profound and is the Word of God.
The Bible shows why the universe had to be Created by God. God has to have perfect knowledge of the universe in order for us to exist. Without a Mind that has perfect knowledge of the system, then the systems needs longer and longer amounts of time for these things to form.
If you don't have a Mind, fine tuning the universe and reducing the uncertainty, then you're most likely to get a boltzmann brain popping into existence far off into the future of the universe than anything close to the universe and earth we think we're experiencing.
This brings us to Maxwell's demon.
Maxwell's demon demonstrates why you need perfect knowledge of a system in order to put a system in it's lowest state of entropy. So the reason that the universe is fine tuned for life is because the Mind of God had perfect knowledge of the system like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards or of parts of a car. Because we have perfect knowledge of the system, we can build a car.
Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment that has been confirmed by experiment and shows that if you have 2 boxes separated by a little slide between them with a mix of fast and slow molecules, a demon with perfect knowledge of the system could separate the slow moving molecules from the fast moving molecules as these molecules approached the barrier or slit between the boxes.
So the demon could put all of the slow moving molecules on one side of the box and all of the fast moving molecules on the other side of the box. It would look like this:
Again, an intelligent mind that has perfect knowledge of the system can reduce the uncertainty of the system and put it into it's lowest energy states and therefore it's lowest states of entropy over short periods of time.
The universe itself has been around for a short period of time and in an ordered sequence from the beginning until now when physics tells us it should take until the end of the universe for a Boltzmann brain to pop into existence and much, much longer for a universe anywhere close to ours can occur. That's about as close to impossible as it gets.
Here's a good video on this:
The Bible tells us God Created Adam from the dust of the ground:
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This makes so much sense because God has perfect knowledge of the configurations that what we call matter can be in so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or garbage in a pile. Just like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards and can create different games.
Ask yourself, what's the most logical scenario.
A God Created us and the universe that has perfect knowledge of the configurations the intitial conditions and matter can be in or the crackpot theories that scientist have to come up with to explain these things?
The Bible is the WORD OF GOD. The Bible is telling us that God can Create us from the dust of the ground because He has perfect knowledge of the ways we can be arranged just like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards to create different games or perfect knowledge to put parts together to create a computer.
So next time you hear someone say the 2nd law doesn't matter because we're in an open system, know that it's a lie. The origin of life and the origin of information doesn't just happen in an open system. You have to have a mind with perfect knowledge of the system.
GIVE YOUR LIFE TO CHRIST TODAY!
The most likely scenario is, we were Created By God as the Bible tells us. This is because just like we have perfect knowledge of the cards and can design all of these different games, God has perfect knowledge of the universe and the positions every "particle" can be in, so he can Create us out of things like the dust of the ground. This is why this scripture is so profound and is the Word of God.
The Bible shows why the universe had to be Created by God. God has to have perfect knowledge of the universe in order for us to exist. Without a Mind that has perfect knowledge of the system, then the systems needs longer and longer amounts of time for these things to form.
If you don't have a Mind, fine tuning the universe and reducing the uncertainty, then you're most likely to get a boltzmann brain popping into existence far off into the future of the universe than anything close to the universe and earth we think we're experiencing.
This brings us to Maxwell's demon.
Maxwell's demon demonstrates why you need perfect knowledge of a system in order to put a system in it's lowest state of entropy. So the reason that the universe is fine tuned for life is because the Mind of God had perfect knowledge of the system like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards or of parts of a car. Because we have perfect knowledge of the system, we can build a car.
Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment that has been confirmed by experiment and shows that if you have 2 boxes separated by a little slide between them with a mix of fast and slow molecules, a demon with perfect knowledge of the system could separate the slow moving molecules from the fast moving molecules as these molecules approached the barrier or slit between the boxes.
So the demon could put all of the slow moving molecules on one side of the box and all of the fast moving molecules on the other side of the box. It would look like this:
Again, an intelligent mind that has perfect knowledge of the system can reduce the uncertainty of the system and put it into it's lowest energy states and therefore it's lowest states of entropy over short periods of time.
The universe itself has been around for a short period of time and in an ordered sequence from the beginning until now when physics tells us it should take until the end of the universe for a Boltzmann brain to pop into existence and much, much longer for a universe anywhere close to ours can occur. That's about as close to impossible as it gets.
Here's a good video on this:
The Bible tells us God Created Adam from the dust of the ground:
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This makes so much sense because God has perfect knowledge of the configurations that what we call matter can be in so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or garbage in a pile. Just like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards and can create different games.
Ask yourself, what's the most logical scenario.
A God Created us and the universe that has perfect knowledge of the configurations the intitial conditions and matter can be in or the crackpot theories that scientist have to come up with to explain these things?
The Bible is the WORD OF GOD. The Bible is telling us that God can Create us from the dust of the ground because He has perfect knowledge of the ways we can be arranged just like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards to create different games or perfect knowledge to put parts together to create a computer.
So next time you hear someone say the 2nd law doesn't matter because we're in an open system, know that it's a lie. The origin of life and the origin of information doesn't just happen in an open system. You have to have a mind with perfect knowledge of the system.
GIVE YOUR LIFE TO CHRIST TODAY!
edit on 15-2-2022 by neoholographic because: (no reason given)
GIVE YOUR LIFE TO CHRIST TODAY!
No. This is the problem, the cultist bottom line after all the admittedly compelling and semi coherent science. But giving up what is rightfully mine so somebody can make decisions for me because I'm not clever enough to be trusted with my fate, is not a coherent argument. That's a non sequitur tacked on to the end of a dialectic monologue about the origin of species.
So again, no.
edit on 15-2-2022 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)
Good posts, I'll read this all at some point.
For now I have bookmarked it at the point where you begin talking about Boltzmann Brains.
I'm not a fan of your card analogy.
I don't disagree with your arguments, but who is really disagreeing with this anyway?
In my reading, so far, It doesn't seem to be presented in a way to accept counter argument possibilities.
How can you be wrong? If you can't tell me, then why should I listen to why you're right? What's the other side of the fence look like?
For now I have bookmarked it at the point where you begin talking about Boltzmann Brains.
I'm not a fan of your card analogy.
I don't disagree with your arguments, but who is really disagreeing with this anyway?
In my reading, so far, It doesn't seem to be presented in a way to accept counter argument possibilities.
How can you be wrong? If you can't tell me, then why should I listen to why you're right? What's the other side of the fence look like?
a reply to: Archivalist
If you keep reading the post, you will see what the other side of the fence looks like. It's filled with crackpot theories to try to avoid our Creator.
For instance a multiverse with a physical universal wave function so I didn't choose to eat cereal this morning. I only ate cereal because a version of me in another universe ate pancakes, and another version ate bacon, eggs and toast and another version ate waffles. You can see how this is a one way ticket to crackpottersville. How can I even have a favorite food in this scenario?
I only say this because the lies are so big to avoid the obvious. We were Created by the Intelligent Mind of God.
What makes more sense?
A God with perfect knowledge of the universe Created the universe and could Create us from the dust of the ground like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards and can create different games or perfect knowledge of how the parts of a house can be arranged so we build all of these different houses or a universe popped into existence and has evolved despite the laws of physics saying it couldn't have happened and before a Boltzmann brain which is due to pop into existence trillions of years from now?
en.wikipedia.org...
How did a whole universe pop into existence and evolve over the years before a Boltzmann brain?
If you keep reading the post, you will see what the other side of the fence looks like. It's filled with crackpot theories to try to avoid our Creator.
For instance a multiverse with a physical universal wave function so I didn't choose to eat cereal this morning. I only ate cereal because a version of me in another universe ate pancakes, and another version ate bacon, eggs and toast and another version ate waffles. You can see how this is a one way ticket to crackpottersville. How can I even have a favorite food in this scenario?
I only say this because the lies are so big to avoid the obvious. We were Created by the Intelligent Mind of God.
What makes more sense?
A God with perfect knowledge of the universe Created the universe and could Create us from the dust of the ground like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards and can create different games or perfect knowledge of how the parts of a house can be arranged so we build all of these different houses or a universe popped into existence and has evolved despite the laws of physics saying it couldn't have happened and before a Boltzmann brain which is due to pop into existence trillions of years from now?
By one calculation, a Boltzmann brain would appear as a quantum fluctuation in the vacuum after a time interval of 10^10^50.
In a de Sitter vacuum (but not in a Minkowski vacuum), a Boltzmann brain can form via nucleation of non-virtual particles gradually assembled by chance from the Hawking radiation emitted from the de Sitter space's bounded cosmological horizon. One estimate for the average time required until nucleation is around 10^10^69 years.
en.wikipedia.org...
How did a whole universe pop into existence and evolve over the years before a Boltzmann brain?
a reply to: neoholographic
Perfect knowledge is a myth. Unless of course you can show me an example that is tangible and not pure hypothesis.
Honestly it's more clever just to admit you can't. Because that would be an honest and respectable answer and we can all appreciate the cosmic mystery as equals.
Perfect knowledge is a myth. Unless of course you can show me an example that is tangible and not pure hypothesis.
Honestly it's more clever just to admit you can't. Because that would be an honest and respectable answer and we can all appreciate the cosmic mystery as equals.
edit on 15-2-2022 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)
a reply to: TzarChasm
If you want to know what perfect knowledge means in this context, watch the video on Maxwell's demon that I posted. He gives an example using a Go board that someone in grade school could understand.
If you want to know what perfect knowledge means in this context, watch the video on Maxwell's demon that I posted. He gives an example using a Go board that someone in grade school could understand.
edit on 15-2-2022 by neoholographic because: (no reason given)
a reply to: neoholographic
Fascinating video, as much as any creative thought exercises in thermodynamics tend to be. Perfect knowledge is still a myth.
Fascinating video, as much as any creative thought exercises in thermodynamics tend to be. Perfect knowledge is still a myth.
a reply to: TzarChasm
If you don't understand it, just say you don't understand it.
Because the demon has perfect knowledge of the system, he can separate hot molecules from cold ones in the box:
Because I have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, games like spades, poker and go fish can be created.
God has perfect knowledge of the universe, so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or a pile of rocks.
A God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept all of these crackpot theories that are illogical.
If you don't understand it, just say you don't understand it.
Because the demon has perfect knowledge of the system, he can separate hot molecules from cold ones in the box:
Because I have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, games like spades, poker and go fish can be created.
God has perfect knowledge of the universe, so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or a pile of rocks.
A God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept all of these crackpot theories that are illogical.
a reply to: Archivalist
Neo doesn't want you to argue against him, that's why he constructs his posts in such a way as to not offer bi-directional dialogue, but to preach in the same way he has been preached to. He also like to thrown in that you must be stupid if you disagree with him.
Trust me, this is designed and treated as a one-way conversation by Neo.
Neo doesn't want you to argue against him, that's why he constructs his posts in such a way as to not offer bi-directional dialogue, but to preach in the same way he has been preached to. He also like to thrown in that you must be stupid if you disagree with him.
Trust me, this is designed and treated as a one-way conversation by Neo.
originally posted by: neoholographic
Dissipative systems like the brain can't form naturally.
I was not designed and I have one. This statement is false.
originally posted by: TerraLiga
a reply to: Archivalist
Neo doesn't want you to argue against him, that's why he constructs his posts in such a way as to not offer bi-directional dialogue, but to preach in the same way he has been preached to. He also like to thrown in that you must be stupid if you disagree with him.
Trust me, this is designed and treated as a one-way conversation by Neo.
Where is the one way conveersation in this thread?
I even discussed what others try to say to get around these things. How can I construct a post where you can't offer opposite dialogue? I have been debating on ATS since 2012 with threads that can get to 10 or 15 pages in length. If there's no dialogue, who have I been debating against in all of those threads?
edit on 15-2-2022 by neoholographic because: (no reason given)
a reply to: TzarChasm
I can see how you, and many others, would object to this final 'shoe in the door' sales pitch on behalf of the Lord.
I'm a committed Christian, but I have always tended towards science, and I love it when the scientific theories stack up in favour of a God-centric universe/creation. But I fully understand your concerns with the 'bottom line', and I see how it would readily put people off from further understanding & exploring the presence of the Kingdom of God upon the Earth, in its distributed form which we call 'Church'. Church is a community of people who believe that not only did God create the universe & ourselves (how that happened is another story - the story which the OP is trying to tell) - but in addition, getting to know that God is not only possible, but also wonderful & advisable for every human on the Earth.
The problem that the OP has, is that he's worked so hard on dealing with the nuts & bolts stuff of material reality, showing how fascinating & awe-inspiring the created order is - but he hasn't in any way built up a picture of why it is wonderful & advisable for every person to seek & find the connection with our Creator & Sustainer which is possible. To understand why it is advisable & wonderful to know the Creator, by 'giving your life to Christ', we must understand more about the nature of free will, and the way that we can 'overcome the world' (win a victory against the powers of death & decay which seek at every moment to claim the material which makes up our bodies & the world around us). The cyclical process of material transition from decay/lifeless dust, to composition in a physical body, as the vessel for a living soul or as animal/vegetable life, shows us that there is indeed a world to overcome, else our dust will be the end of us & there will be no conscious story re: who we were, are & will become. And stories are what the world of Man is made of - narrative - of our lives & our civilisations.
In a nutshell, no matter the road your life has taken, no matter the pain & suffering you face, or indeed any shame over past misdeeds - the Creator is loving, just, truthful in all things & willing to act on your behalf to improve the circumstances of your life & to save your soul from anything which has sullied or damaged it, for whatever reasons that may have happened.
In the philosophical respect of the world we live in, rather the universe we live in, the most fundamental principle in operation for the possibility of conscious, 'spiritual' life, is that free will must be absolutely preserved in the system overall (with only occasional tweaks by the hand of the Almighty to 'course correct' the world in minor ways, or to simply bless a person for reasons known to God - these events are what we call 'miracles'...) But without the preservation of free will, there can be no true freedom for us to live the lives we wish to live. Whether our choices are good or bad will bear out in the consequences of those choices, in the main, with the 'chance of circumstance' (which is the chaos engineered by a world of free choices & material forces) also affecting our lives both individually & collectively at various points. We can't complain that life isn't fair, or that God (should He exist) is unkind, because the only way it can be fair is if free will exists. In that regard the world is 'fair' from an existential standpoint, we all are free to choose in response to circumstance - but life can seem unfair, when the chaos collisions of choice & circumstance lead to unfortunate or even tragic outcomes. Sadly, it is necessary that the possibility for evil to exist must remain, otherwise there is no possibility of free will leading to goodness in our lives - if we all did the 'right thing' all the time, we would be automatons.
Taking this onward, we see that we must 'overcome the world', if our spiritual essence is to have a victory which makes our own personal narrative meaningful. For most people, the love of family & friends, the satisfaction of an interesting & useful career, and some enjoyable pursuits to share with others will give the level of meaning that is required in order to feel that their own journey & narrative has been worthwhile.
And certainly, at this point I will state emphatically - such people, if they do not come to the knowledge of Christ, are NOT 'damned to Hell for all eternity'. All the evidence we have (tens of thousands of cases, including peer-reviewed analyses of medically verified near-death experiences) suggests that 'good people' such as those just described, will be welcomed to a paradisical realm of Light, greeted by loving relatives & friends who had passed away before them - though of course, these people are sent back to Earth, usually being told "It's not your time". They are often given a choice as to whether they wish to stay in the realm of Heaven or depart to live again with relatives & friends on the Earth, and naturally this spiritually enlightening & joyous, wondrous experience is viewed as a godly, spiritual, precious experience - they are not in any way being sent to a Hellish realm. There are some testimonies of negative near-death experiences, but they are far more infrequent, a real minority of cases, and my guess is that these people have had a chance encounter with what I refer to as 'the poisoned astral' - the realm of the astral planes where evil spirits dwell, a place which was once godly, just as all of Creation was, yet which has been sullied by wickedness amongst spiritual beings & humans who are unrepentant evil men & women at the point of death. Though it is not 'Hellfire', it is nonetheless an awful place of shadows, gloom & fear. Frequently these near-departed souls are rescued from that realm by God, or by an angel on assignment, to bring them instead to the place of light, before being returned to the Earth once more.
So again, to overcome the world - that is what most people in society work at naturally - God has put His laws in their hearts, they are naturally good - they do not need the spiritual 'Great Physician' (honorary title for Christ). Conversely, those who are indeed lost, adrift in a world they can't understand or cope with, perhaps laden with real sin which has real consequences in their lives - these are the people who must call on Christ as saviour, because when they do, it is assured that He will respond, that He will uplift them & bless them, giving them a new lease of life ('born again'), granting spiritual gifts & placing them in loving communities known as churches, where He regularly can be found, by His overwhelming & glorious presence during worship, prayer & reflection. He is a very real presence, and it is joyous indeed to be near to Him in this way. So, the lost can be saved - but the safe can be enriched by a knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord of all Creation - the same spiritual gifts, loving communities, places of nearness to God, can be enjoyed by all, their lives enhanced by the call & enabling of God in their lives.
It is also worth remembering - spiritual wickedness does exist, there are powers which interfere in peoples' lives, which can cause misery in myriad ways (they can be seen as unfortunate forces of nature, in a way - an obstacle to happiness, efficacy & fulfilment in this world). Therefore, to know Christ, simply by reaching out & asking Him to be near, is fulfilment itself.
I can see how you, and many others, would object to this final 'shoe in the door' sales pitch on behalf of the Lord.
I'm a committed Christian, but I have always tended towards science, and I love it when the scientific theories stack up in favour of a God-centric universe/creation. But I fully understand your concerns with the 'bottom line', and I see how it would readily put people off from further understanding & exploring the presence of the Kingdom of God upon the Earth, in its distributed form which we call 'Church'. Church is a community of people who believe that not only did God create the universe & ourselves (how that happened is another story - the story which the OP is trying to tell) - but in addition, getting to know that God is not only possible, but also wonderful & advisable for every human on the Earth.
The problem that the OP has, is that he's worked so hard on dealing with the nuts & bolts stuff of material reality, showing how fascinating & awe-inspiring the created order is - but he hasn't in any way built up a picture of why it is wonderful & advisable for every person to seek & find the connection with our Creator & Sustainer which is possible. To understand why it is advisable & wonderful to know the Creator, by 'giving your life to Christ', we must understand more about the nature of free will, and the way that we can 'overcome the world' (win a victory against the powers of death & decay which seek at every moment to claim the material which makes up our bodies & the world around us). The cyclical process of material transition from decay/lifeless dust, to composition in a physical body, as the vessel for a living soul or as animal/vegetable life, shows us that there is indeed a world to overcome, else our dust will be the end of us & there will be no conscious story re: who we were, are & will become. And stories are what the world of Man is made of - narrative - of our lives & our civilisations.
In a nutshell, no matter the road your life has taken, no matter the pain & suffering you face, or indeed any shame over past misdeeds - the Creator is loving, just, truthful in all things & willing to act on your behalf to improve the circumstances of your life & to save your soul from anything which has sullied or damaged it, for whatever reasons that may have happened.
In the philosophical respect of the world we live in, rather the universe we live in, the most fundamental principle in operation for the possibility of conscious, 'spiritual' life, is that free will must be absolutely preserved in the system overall (with only occasional tweaks by the hand of the Almighty to 'course correct' the world in minor ways, or to simply bless a person for reasons known to God - these events are what we call 'miracles'...) But without the preservation of free will, there can be no true freedom for us to live the lives we wish to live. Whether our choices are good or bad will bear out in the consequences of those choices, in the main, with the 'chance of circumstance' (which is the chaos engineered by a world of free choices & material forces) also affecting our lives both individually & collectively at various points. We can't complain that life isn't fair, or that God (should He exist) is unkind, because the only way it can be fair is if free will exists. In that regard the world is 'fair' from an existential standpoint, we all are free to choose in response to circumstance - but life can seem unfair, when the chaos collisions of choice & circumstance lead to unfortunate or even tragic outcomes. Sadly, it is necessary that the possibility for evil to exist must remain, otherwise there is no possibility of free will leading to goodness in our lives - if we all did the 'right thing' all the time, we would be automatons.
Taking this onward, we see that we must 'overcome the world', if our spiritual essence is to have a victory which makes our own personal narrative meaningful. For most people, the love of family & friends, the satisfaction of an interesting & useful career, and some enjoyable pursuits to share with others will give the level of meaning that is required in order to feel that their own journey & narrative has been worthwhile.
And certainly, at this point I will state emphatically - such people, if they do not come to the knowledge of Christ, are NOT 'damned to Hell for all eternity'. All the evidence we have (tens of thousands of cases, including peer-reviewed analyses of medically verified near-death experiences) suggests that 'good people' such as those just described, will be welcomed to a paradisical realm of Light, greeted by loving relatives & friends who had passed away before them - though of course, these people are sent back to Earth, usually being told "It's not your time". They are often given a choice as to whether they wish to stay in the realm of Heaven or depart to live again with relatives & friends on the Earth, and naturally this spiritually enlightening & joyous, wondrous experience is viewed as a godly, spiritual, precious experience - they are not in any way being sent to a Hellish realm. There are some testimonies of negative near-death experiences, but they are far more infrequent, a real minority of cases, and my guess is that these people have had a chance encounter with what I refer to as 'the poisoned astral' - the realm of the astral planes where evil spirits dwell, a place which was once godly, just as all of Creation was, yet which has been sullied by wickedness amongst spiritual beings & humans who are unrepentant evil men & women at the point of death. Though it is not 'Hellfire', it is nonetheless an awful place of shadows, gloom & fear. Frequently these near-departed souls are rescued from that realm by God, or by an angel on assignment, to bring them instead to the place of light, before being returned to the Earth once more.
So again, to overcome the world - that is what most people in society work at naturally - God has put His laws in their hearts, they are naturally good - they do not need the spiritual 'Great Physician' (honorary title for Christ). Conversely, those who are indeed lost, adrift in a world they can't understand or cope with, perhaps laden with real sin which has real consequences in their lives - these are the people who must call on Christ as saviour, because when they do, it is assured that He will respond, that He will uplift them & bless them, giving them a new lease of life ('born again'), granting spiritual gifts & placing them in loving communities known as churches, where He regularly can be found, by His overwhelming & glorious presence during worship, prayer & reflection. He is a very real presence, and it is joyous indeed to be near to Him in this way. So, the lost can be saved - but the safe can be enriched by a knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord of all Creation - the same spiritual gifts, loving communities, places of nearness to God, can be enjoyed by all, their lives enhanced by the call & enabling of God in their lives.
It is also worth remembering - spiritual wickedness does exist, there are powers which interfere in peoples' lives, which can cause misery in myriad ways (they can be seen as unfortunate forces of nature, in a way - an obstacle to happiness, efficacy & fulfilment in this world). Therefore, to know Christ, simply by reaching out & asking Him to be near, is fulfilment itself.
edit on FebruaryTuesday2202CST05America/Chicago-060024 by
FlyInTheOintment because: important clarification
originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: TzarChasm
If you don't understand it, just say you don't understand it.
Because the demon has perfect knowledge of the system, he can separate hot molecules from cold ones in the box:
Because I have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, games like spades, poker and go fish can be created.
God has perfect knowledge of the universe, so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or a pile of rocks.
A God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept all of these crackpot theories that are illogical.
Aka "a god with perfect knowledge must exist or I'm a gullible nitwit"? But I digress.
Since you have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, you can sit down at any table in any casino and never lose a single game. So where's your millions in winnings? Maxwell's demon is a fictional creation exhibiting hypothetical abilities designed to test imaginary elements. You really can't give us anything better than pure ontology?
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
Every person has the right to craft whatever therapeutic device they require to fully self actualize and achieve a rewarding relationship with their community. But then there's the kind of "spiritualist" who is desperate to be so incredibly clever as to give society all the answers in spite of giving them none at all.
Every person has the right to craft whatever therapeutic device they require to fully self actualize and achieve a rewarding relationship with their community. But then there's the kind of "spiritualist" who is desperate to be so incredibly clever as to give society all the answers in spite of giving them none at all.
originally posted by: TzarChasm
originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: TzarChasm
If you don't understand it, just say you don't understand it.
Because the demon has perfect knowledge of the system, he can separate hot molecules from cold ones in the box:
Because I have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, games like spades, poker and go fish can be created.
God has perfect knowledge of the universe, so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or a pile of rocks.
A God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept all of these crackpot theories that are illogical.
Aka "a god with perfect knowledge must exist or I'm a gullible nitwit"? But I digress.
Since you have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, you can sit down at any table in any casino and never lose a single game. So where's your millions in winnings? Maxwell's demon is a fictional creation exhibiting hypothetical abilities designed to test imaginary elements. You really can't give us anything better than pure ontology?
You said:
Aka "a god with perfect knowledge must exist or I'm a gullible nitwit"? But I digress.
No, I said a God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept outlandish theories like a multiverse with a physical wave function.
Yes, I have perfect knowledge of how a deck of cards can be ordered. I never said it pertains to the outcomes of the cards when they're dealt.
I'm talking about order, shannon entropy and the reduction of uncertainty not knowing which cards will be dealt in a game of poker.
You know this though. You can't refute what I'm saying so you're trying to debate a strawman.
originally posted by: neoholographic
originally posted by: TzarChasm
originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: TzarChasm
If you don't understand it, just say you don't understand it.
Because the demon has perfect knowledge of the system, he can separate hot molecules from cold ones in the box:
Because I have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, games like spades, poker and go fish can be created.
God has perfect knowledge of the universe, so He can Create us from the dust of the ground or a pile of rocks.
A God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept all of these crackpot theories that are illogical.
Aka "a god with perfect knowledge must exist or I'm a gullible nitwit"? But I digress.
Since you have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards, you can sit down at any table in any casino and never lose a single game. So where's your millions in winnings? Maxwell's demon is a fictional creation exhibiting hypothetical abilities designed to test imaginary elements. You really can't give us anything better than pure ontology?
You said:
Aka "a god with perfect knowledge must exist or I'm a gullible nitwit"? But I digress.
No, I said a God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept outlandish theories like a multiverse with a physical wave function.
Yes, I have perfect knowledge of how a deck of cards can be ordered. I never said it pertains to the outcomes of the cards when they're dealt.
I'm talking about order, shannon entropy and the reduction of uncertainty not knowing which cards will be dealt in a game of poker.
You know this though. You can't refute what I'm saying so you're trying to debate a strawman.
So you're talking about theoretical physics, the most useless class of physics ever invented. Which is why you haven't won any poker games in spite of cracking god's reality bending algorithms.
a reply to: neoholographic
Your passion for statistical mechanics is admirable, but any god or wizard I can't shake hands with is useless to me. My soul is mine to keep unless I find someone worthy of sharing it with.
Your passion for statistical mechanics is admirable, but any god or wizard I can't shake hands with is useless to me. My soul is mine to keep unless I find someone worthy of sharing it with.
edit on 15-2-2022 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: neoholographic
originally posted by: TerraLiga
a reply to: Archivalist
Neo doesn't want you to argue against him, that's why he constructs his posts in such a way as to not offer bi-directional dialogue, but to preach in the same way he has been preached to. He also like to thrown in that you must be stupid if you disagree with him.
Trust me, this is designed and treated as a one-way conversation by Neo.
Where is the one way conveersation in this thread?
I even discussed what others try to say to get around these things. How can I construct a post where you can't offer opposite dialogue? I have been debating on ATS since 2012 with threads that can get to 10 or 15 pages in length. If there's no dialogue, who have I been debating against in all of those threads?
From this one thread, your words (but my emboldened emphasis):
Dissipative systems like a tornado can form naturally. Dissipative systems like the brain can't form naturally.
Tornados and organic systems both exist through natural processes. Neither of them needs a creator to exist. Your post does not disprove this statement of fact.
So ask yourself, what's more likely? A deck of cards spontaneuosly forming a full house or a human mind forming a full house?
This is an irrelevant argument phrased to call on the reader's sense of logic using an unproven and unreliable source.
Now there's some like Sean Carroll and others that try to get around this but their papers are filled with so many buts, ifs and maybes that they don't amount to much.
And this...
You can understand why this is troubling to atheist like Sean Carroll and others. It defies logic even though many of them believe in a fantasy multiverse where all of your decisions are not your choices but just the consequence of the splitting of a universal wave function that they can't show is physical.
This is from someone who is quoting two thought experiments - neither of which are fact - and is using them as evidence in the supernatural.
Maxwell's demon demonstrates why you need perfect knowledge of a system in order to put a system in it's lowest state of entropy. So the reason that the universe is fine tuned for life is because the Mind of God had perfect knowledge of the system like we have perfect knowledge of a deck of cards or of parts of a car. Because we have perfect knowledge of the system, we can build a car.
Not really. Organic systems are prioritised for efficiency - in almost all cases they couldn't exist without this efficiency. Efficiency is not the priority of design, however. If nature were to produce a car it would travel 1000 miles per cupful of fuel and would maintain and repair itself. Needless to say, a car like this does not exist.
A God Created us and the universe that has perfect knowledge of the configurations the intitial conditions and matter can be in or the crackpot theories that scientist have to come up with to explain these things?
This is a perfect example of what I said earlier. Any competing theory to yours is belittled and the poster defamed.
If you keep reading the post, you will see what the other side of the fence looks like. It's filled with crackpot theories to try to avoid our Creator.
Here's another example.
If you want to know what perfect knowledge means in this context, watch the video on Maxwell's demon that I posted. He gives an example using a Go board that someone in grade school could understand.
And another. No mention of this particular thought experiment has been proven wrong yet, so I doubt you have seen the whole video.
A God with perfect knowledge must exist or you have to accept all of these crackpot theories that are illogical.
Crackpot must be the word of the month. Facile is one your other favourites.
This is why this scripture is so profound and is the Word of God.
I saved this one for last. This is the whole and only reason you are so dedicated (hours every day and days every week) trying to use science against science in the hope some of it sticks, because if even one word of your religion is wrong it would throw doubt on the rest of it - and that would be catastrophic for you.
That makes you a fundamentalist, and the world can do without those.
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