The skeptics catch 22 when it comes to U.F.O.'s

a reply to: neoholographic

This whole post was written nicely.

The pseudoskeptic wants to act like there's no evidence but they're using the same EVIDENCE to reach a different conclusion!!

What really matters, is me and my personal experience. I will spend hours scrutinizing my own pictures, recording, who was where at the time...

Spent so much time looking at other evidence weather it be ghost or unidentified aircrafts. I keep seeing the same material/evidence since the 70's. Most have been debunked, or just so out of this world.

So many satellites, and drones.... like you said.

You can say this is evidence that supports the existence of ghosts alongside all of the other evidence. You have to weigh the fact that you said you saw a Nun. Why should i believe or not believe you? If there's no reason not to believe you then I can't just discount what you're saying.

Edit: flicky tappity finger hit reply by accident. I'm not finished... ok finished.🤗


And because you personally were not with me, why on earth should yoy believe me.

Thanks,
This is a good thread.

Mar.... SPRINGER NEEDS TO SEE THIS THREAD👍🏼🙂

edit on 14-2-2022 by Bigburgh because: Tacos for Valentines Day

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: neoholographic

Where is my evidence that humans are not stupid?

Let's leave it there.

How ironic.

Kev

It has nothing to do with humans being stupid, it's just basic common sense. Where did this knowledge come from?

Let's talk about art:

The Sumerians were great creators, nothing proving this more than their art. Sumerian artifacts show great detail and ornamentation, with fine semi-precious stones imported from other lands, such as lapis lazuli, marble, and diorite, and precious metals like hammered gold, incorporated into the design. Since stone was rare it was reserved for sculpture. The most widespread material in Sumer was clay, as a result many Sumerina objects are made of clay. Metals such as gold, silver, copper, and bronze, along with shells and gemstones, were used for the finest sculpture and inlays. Small stones of all kinds, including more precious stones such as lapis lazuli, alabaster, and serpentine, were used for cylinder seals.

en.wikipedia.org...





On to mathematics:

The Sumerians developed a complex system of metrology c. 4000 BC. This advanced metrology resulted in the creation of arithmetic, geometry, and algebra. From c. 2600 BC onwards, the Sumerians wrote multiplication tables on clay tablets and dealt with geometrical exercises and division problems. The earliest traces of the Babylonian numerals also date back to this period.[81] The period c. 2700–2300 BC saw the first appearance of the abacus, and a table of successive columns which delimited the successive orders of magnitude of their sexagesimal number system.[82] The Sumerians were the first to use a place value numeral system. There is also anecdotal evidence the Sumerians may have used a type of slide rule in astronomical calculations. They were the first to find the area of a triangle and the volume of a cube.[83]

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, NOTHING LIKE THIS before the Sumerians.

We know these things happen gradually over time and civilizations build from past civilizations and knowledge increases. Where is all of the civilizations prior to the Sumerians with libraries or writing down the history of their civilization? We should see this evolving over time. For close to 200,000 years nobody thought to write things down and move.

We can look at the history of modern civilization and every civilization is influenced by a previous civilization.

For instance the wheel:

The wheel was invented in the 4th century BC in Lower Mesopotamia(modern-​​day Iraq), where the Sumerian people inserted rotating axles into solid discs of wood. It was only in 2000 BC that the discs began to be hollowed out to make a lighter wheel.

www.citeco.fr...

Here's an old wheel from the Sumerians:



Here's how the wheel was influenced by future generations:



As you can see, previous knowledge from a past modern civilization influences future civilizations.

Do you have any evidence to support anything you're saying?

We should be able to say, the Sumerians didn't get their knowledge from beings from the sky, they got it from these 4 or 5 previous civilizations but we can't. It just happened!

a reply to: neutronflux

If you want some new class of 'UFO' to exist, just invent some new,
catchy marketing term and find a couple of high-profile people to
believe with all their hearts that it's a thing, and there you go!

I'm not saying that the amazing things either exist or don't exist.. but
you can see from a cultural evolution standpoint, that it doesn't
matter if they exist or not.. people want something to comfort
themselves wtih, to be excited about, that takes them away from
the humdrum painful morasse of daily life.

Sundogs become crosses in the sky; exhaust from a Jet plan
seen wtih an IR sensor become Tic Tacs, and standard cultural
artificacts of ancient cultures that accidentally resemble
something modern become 'ancient aliens'.

Jacques Vallee wrote about this a lot.. and humorously, some of
his theories have themselves become a control loop themselves,
causing religons to be founded upon mistaken interpretations
of his concepts, etc.

Kev

originally posted by: Bigburgh
a reply to: neoholographic

This whole post was written nicely.

The pseudoskeptic wants to act like there's no evidence but they're using the same EVIDENCE to reach a different conclusion!!

What really matters, is me and my personal experience. I will spend hours scrutinizing my own pictures, recording, who was where at the time...

Spent so much time looking at other evidence weather it be ghost or unidentified aircrafts. I keep seeing the same material/evidence since the 70's. Most have been debunked, or just so out of this world.

So many satellites, and drones.... like you said.

You can say this is evidence that supports the existence of ghosts alongside all of the other evidence. You have to weigh the fact that you said you saw a Nun. Why should i believe or not believe you? If there's no reason not to believe you then I can't just discount what you're saying.

Edit: flicky tappity finger hit reply by accident. I'm not finished
And because you personally were not with me, why on earth should yoy believe me.

Thanks,
This is a good thread.

Mar.... SPRINGER NEEDS TO SEE THIS THREAD👍🏼🙂

Good points!

I've had 4 U.F.O. encounters and personal experience is important.

a reply to: neoholographic

Neo... buddy...

I don't want to sound like ONE OF THOSE GUYS, but much of what you write
(by the way.. you write half decently), is simple appeals to wonderment.

Yes, absolutely, Sumerians were AMAZING.

And.. any first culture to invent a major writing system WOUlD BE seen
as revolutionary. I am IN AWE of ancient cultures all around the world.

And they, would no doubt be in awe of cell phones and flyign to the moon,
none of which had anything to do wtih aliens either.

If you talk to a linguist, they can demonstrate proto-languages, and how they
developed. For example I looked at Phoenician some.. during the lifecycle
of their culture, their writing shifted, from more primitive to more complex..
or at least different. Our own English alphabet was heavily influenced by
them.

Everything looks amazing when viewed from the lens of 'it happend in one jump'..
only things almost never do. That's not how the world works..

It's like the argument from ignorance regarding the irreducible complexity
in darwinian evolution.

It's a garbage agument.

Once you go looking for the baby steps from precursor, to precursor,
the most amazing complex things, even say atomic bombs are just
a slow slog through the many steps, nothing mysticlal, magical, alien
or divine at all.

And if you say, "well show me!". Then I might say " attend University"
or something like that.. the burden of proof that humans are not stupid,
and that thigngs progress slowly over time is not rocket science. The onus
of 'proof' is not on me or anyone.

There's nothing to prove..

An intelligent species like humans slowly get better at things...
you can see it with your own eyes..

The Wright brothers flew a couple hundred feet at Kitty Hawk.

Now Chinese Hypersonic missiles circumnavigate the globe
in a couple hours.

Appeals to antiquity, appeals to wonderment, appeals to
irreducible complexity don't impress me, and most of all
simple dumb common sense suffices.

This is my position.

I understand that you have a different position.

I believe I am treating you fairly. I try to.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

You just said a whole bunch of nothing.

I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm asking for evidence to support your position.

Show me where the Sumerians got their knowledge.

Here's more:

The art of metallurgy soon encompassed the ability to alloy copper with other metals, resulting in a castable, hard but malleable metal we call bronze. The Bronze Age, our first metallurgical age, was also a Mesopotamian contribution to modern civilisation. Much of ancient commerce was devoted to the metals trade; it also formed the basis for the development in Mesopotamia of banking and the first money - the silver shekel (‘weighed ingot’).

www.anvilfire.com...

You haven't provided a shred of evidence as to where this knowledge came from.

For 200,000 years nobody wanted to write things down and then you get metallurgy and mathematics? You get a banking system, palaces, houses and people going to work and paying taxes?

You have to have more than just bloviating.

a reply to: neoholographic

As I said, you have your own position that differs from what is
taught in Unviersity.

Best of luck.

Kev

I think on ATS there are examples of healthy skepticism but in the realm of “skeptic” in the history of ufology there are IMO folks like Phillip Klass who are obsessive debunkers, and his explanations for ufos have ranged from outright lies to absurd explanations for them. They can be correlated to the excitement junkies (a human trait) in ufology. Don’t we all get excited when we go outside the mundane? Physics fascinates me and wish I had studied Physics.

So, it’s nothing wrong with being excited about paranormal things in ufology as long as one can separate that emotion as much as they can and try not to taint one’s objectivity.

In other words, so there often are emotional reasons for being a ufo believer, and sometimes there are emotional reasons for being a disbeliever. It's all good to me though.

It’s all human, as long as we don't get into dishonesty and ridiculous cultism. Even then to each their own until they get in the danger zone.

a reply to: peaceinoutz

Are we joined at the hip now?

I was going to write a reply much like yours.. I was even thnking of
writing a new post on this topic.

And for what it's worth.. I spent YEARS looking at fringe evidence for
ancient aliens.. as just one example.. I've had long discusdsions with
some of the people writing books on these kinds of topics.

I am so open minded, my brains almost fall out.

Yet, because I don't fall for standard tropes, I'm often thought to be a
debunker or 'skeptic' (which to me means mostly rational, but it's
turned into an insult).

it's a big mysteirous unvierse, and there is more that we don't know,
most likely, than we do.

But garbage in still equals garbage out.

And all of us have to decide what is our treasure and what is our
garbage.

Just blathering :wink

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: neoholographic

As I said, you have your own position that differs from what is
taught in Unviersity.

Best of luck.

Kev

No, I have common sense and an open mind.

There's no other explanation.

The Sumerians say they got their knowledge from beings from the sky. We should be able to easily refute this by saying these 4-5 civilizations before the Sumerians were building this knowledge.

What does the evidence show?

Hominids stayed isolated from each other for thousands of years. This is why there were different hominids. Then one race came on the scene that wanted to explore and it absored all other hominids.

It had knowledge to build a modern civilization.

Where did this knowledge come from? How did they know about advanced metallurgy techniques? Why did they want to build governments and banking systems? Where did the knowledge on how to do these things come from?

How did we go from this:





To this:






All I'm saying is, where did this knowledge come from?

a reply to: peaceinoutz

You said:

I think on ATS there are examples of healthy skepticism but in the realm of “skeptic” in the history of ufology there are IMO folks like Phillip Klass who are obsessive debunkers, and his explanations for ufos have ranged from outright lies to absurd explanations for them. They can be correlated to the excitement junkies (a human trait) in ufology. Don’t we all get excited when we go outside the mundane? Physics fascinates me and wish I had studied Physics.

Exactly!

There's a difference between being a skeptic and a pseudoskeptic where there's no evidence and everything that's blurry is a bird or a weather balloon or if it's "too good to be true" it must be fake C.G.I.

a reply to: neoholographic

It's a valid question!

And all I'm saying, is that is there not a prosaic explanation?
That is certainly the societal line, right?

And it seems reasonable to me. I won't Carl Sagan you..

Haven't you looked into neolithic cultures? There's some
evidence of a precursor to the Sumerians.. surely they
got some tricks from them?

Also, let's examine cuniform.

At first, wouldn't pressing a stick into some mud and
making a tally mark, wouldn't that in team EASILY
progress to cuniform?

Why do you invoke ancient aliens for one of the first
ancient languages?

I'm also surprised.. people who want ot use aliens or god
as a theory for something, tend ot go for the 'gaps' where
science has not enough to say..

such as what caused the explosion of intelligence in
ancient humans?

I'm 99% convinced there is a prosaic answer to that, but
who knows, right?

Kev

Neo,

you do know, right?

I had a personal CE5, with a lifeform, physical
contact and a craft! I was paralyzed for 12 minutes
and there were energy discharges in my house...

Only... it wasn't any of those in the the conventional
sense..

I hold a very nuanced view, afer much ardurous
research..

Alienz done it just doesn't work for me.. been
there, done that, and got the T-shirt.

a reply to: neoholographic

Why did they want to build governments and banking systems?

Sounds like demons to me. Anyway…

And your way to emotional about the subject to think critically.

And ruler’s justified their position by claiming to be gods, or ordained by gods. Which was a load of crap.

Like the banking example, “aliens” taught us how to be missable. Then shagged off? F’rs.

Why just the Sumerians? Who showed the “aliens” to show the Sumerians?

Why can’t people do things for themselves. Why is it always aliens. Did Albert Einstein do anything for himself. Or was it Aliens.

You have myth around fundamentals that had to originate from somewhere for civilization to advance. With items built from simple machines. Myth is not proof. It’s a story to make sense of an item observed to grip understanding. Or a story can be propaganda used to hold power. I am sure kings seemed to presents living hand to mouth as gods and something extra from their day to day life. And it didn’t hurt the kings to be seen as gods. Or blessed and ordained by the gods. So they weren’t going to correct the narrative.

Are you critical of mind and thought. Or wowed like the presents into believing early propaganda?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

You said:

I'm 99% convinced there is a prosaic answer to that, but who knows, right?

How are you 99% sure without looking at the evidence?

You talk about God of the gaps but you're the one with blind faith. You're 99% sure but you haven't examined the evidence???

Again, every modern civilization builds on knowledge from previous civilizations.

Why did they say they got their knowledge from beings from the sky and not that they conquered this civilization and that civilization.

All of these civilizations have recordings of conquest and they adopted some things from the nation they conquered.

The Sumerians show pictures of them learning from the beings from the sky instead conquering other civilizations. Why make yourself look weak?

Why show yourself learning from the gods instead of doing these things yourself and conquering other nations?






If this knowledge evolved, where did it come from?

Sumerians show why a natural interpretation of evolution is false
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: neoholographic

It's inductive reasoning.

If you do something 99 times in a row, then you
surmise that the 100th time, it would probably
be the same.

When I was young, i believed nearly every crazy
thing in the book, and over the years I learned
to my total and complte satisfaction that I
was mostly wrong about a great many things.

I've probably LITERALLY had 99 bad assumptions
about the nature of the world proven wrong,
by doing genuine resaerch with academia
anad science.

That''s all.

There's no need to be so amped up.

I don't care what you believe so long as
you don't hurt anyone.

Kev

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: neoholographic

Why did they want to build governments and banking systems?

Sounds like demons to me. Anyway…

And your way to emotional about the subject to think critically.

And ruler’s justified their position by claiming to be gods, or ordained by gods. Which was a load of crap.

Like the banking example, “aliens” taught us how to be missable. Then shagged off? F’rs.

Why just the Sumerians? Who showed the “aliens” to show the Sumerians?

Why can’t people do things for themselves. Why is it always aliens. Did Albert Einstein do anything for himself. Or was it Aliens.

You have myth around fundamentals that had to originate from somewhere for civilization to advance. With items built from simple machines. Myth is not proof. It’s a story to make sense of an item observed to grip understanding. Or a story can be propaganda used to hold power. I am sure kings seemed to presents living hand to mouth as gods and something extra from their day to day life. And it didn’t hurt the kings to be seen as gods. Or blessed and ordained by the gods. So they weren’t going to correct the narrative.

Are you critical of mind and thought. Or wowed like the presents into believing early propaganda?

More hyperbole but not a shred of evidence. You said:

Why can’t people do things for themselves. Why is it always aliens. Did Albert Einstein do anything for himself. Or was it Aliens.

Einstein is a perfect example.

You couldn't have Einstein without the prior work of Max Planck and Newton.

So stop with all of the hyperbole and provide some evidence. All I'm saying is, if there's evidence to refute what I'm saying present it. All I get is bloviating without a shred of evidence.

I have posted links to support everything I have said.

If th Sumerians did all of these things on their own, where's the evidence. Just like we can trace Einstein's work to Newton and Max Planck, we should be able to show where they got their knowledge from.

a reply to: neoholographic

Why does it have to be alien’s?

Have any proof the Sumerians weren’t taught by an actual demon?

-or-

A race of early super humans that wanted to pass their knowledge off because they knew they were dying off.

-or-

Or the ruling class who generated the advances that seemed like magic to the common person were very happy to spread the propaganda they where ordained by the heavens.

I say all three are as plausible as your reading of the myths, with as much supporting evidence.

Is that false.

a reply to: neoholographic

You

More hyperbole but not a shred of evidence.

Said the skeptic with a closed mind because it wasn’t their thought.

People are scared to leave their comfort zones, free will lets them stay there.