How Galileo Calculated the Size of Hell

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Religious dogma supported by fiction, even if it was epic poetry, it still wrong. Hell is a myth, a very bad myth. Dante got it wrong. Milton got it wrong. Mary K Baxter got it wrong. Most of what used to be known as Christendom got it wrong.

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos – therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell” being involved, i.e., no “hell and earth” or “heaven and hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

#2. Creation was good, therefore there couldn't be a hell, because everything he created would not be good.

#4. God made both good and evil.

So which is it? By your own argument god could not have created evil, because then his creation could not be good.

The creation story says very clearly it is the story of the creation of the heavens and the earth. Just because it's not the story of the creation of the heavens, earth, and hell doesn't mean hell wasn't created.

Revelation 14
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Seems like hell is a place of everlasting fire, eternal punishment, and burning sulfer to me...

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Religious dogma supported by fiction, even if it was epic poetry, it still wrong. Hell is a myth, a very bad myth. Dante got it wrong. Milton got it wrong. Mary K Baxter got it wrong. Most of what used to be known as Christendom got it wrong.

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos – therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell” being involved, i.e., no “hell and earth” or “heaven and hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

#2. Creation was good, therefore there couldn't be a hell, because everything he created would not be good.

#4. God made both good and evil.

So which is it? By your own argument god could not have created evil, because then his creation could not be good.

The creation story says very clearly it is the story of the creation of the heavens and the earth. Just because it's not the story of the creation of the heavens, earth, and hell doesn't mean hell wasn't created.

Revelation 14
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Seems like hell is a place of everlasting fire, eternal punishment, and burning sulfer to me...

Revelation 14 does not mention "hell." It also fails to mention eternal conscious torment...only that the smoke ascends forever, and I suspect the original means only for an age. The fire and sulfur are cleansing agents, as sulfur was a common fumigant and cleansing agent. Fire is too, as God describes Himself as a refining fire, and as soap. I have written a long essay about that, titled "Godfire."

Matthew 25:41 does not always read like you quote, no not in all translations. It is usually a mistake to say that the Bible says this or says that, for so much is translation-specific. Or...you could learn to read the original Greek and Hebrew. No, the Bible is not monolithic, for there are dozens and dozens of English translations. For instance, my Young's Literal has "age-during" instead of "everlasting."

Matthew 25:46 again is misleading. The YLT has, again, "age-during."

As for a contradiction between God making "hell" and making evil, I can only say that "hell" includes evil, but evil does not need to include "hell."

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Religious dogma supported by fiction, even if it was epic poetry, it still wrong. Hell is a myth, a very bad myth. Dante got it wrong. Milton got it wrong. Mary K Baxter got it wrong. Most of what used to be known as Christendom got it wrong.

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos – therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell” being involved, i.e., no “hell and earth” or “heaven and hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

#2. Creation was good, therefore there couldn't be a hell, because everything he created would not be good.

#4. God made both good and evil.

So which is it? By your own argument god could not have created evil, because then his creation could not be good.

The creation story says very clearly it is the story of the creation of the heavens and the earth. Just because it's not the story of the creation of the heavens, earth, and hell doesn't mean hell wasn't created.

Revelation 14
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Seems like hell is a place of everlasting fire, eternal punishment, and burning sulfer to me...

Revelation 14 does not mention "hell." It also fails to mention eternal conscious torment...only that the smoke ascends forever, and I suspect the original means only for an age. The fire and sulfur are cleansing agents, as sulfur was a common fumigant and cleansing agent. Fire is too, as God describes Himself as a refining fire, and as soap. I have written a long essay about that, titled "Godfire."

Matthew 25:41 does not always read like you quote, no not in all translations. It is usually a mistake to say that the Bible says this or says that, for so much is translation-specific. Or...you could learn to read the original Greek and Hebrew. No, the Bible is not monolithic, for there are dozens and dozens of English translations. For instance, my Young's Literal has "age-during" instead of "everlasting."

Matthew 25:46 again is misleading. The YLT has, again, "age-during."

As for a contradiction between God making "hell" and making evil, I can only say that "hell" includes evil, but evil does not need to include "hell."

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Literally says it right there. It is literally saying they will tormented forever...

Its very clear that Christianity believes in punishment after death, and its very clear hell is a place of torment. There are many, many more examples of it in the new testament.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Thank you for that excellent exegesis, you have Biblically confirmed my intuituve knowledge as a Christian who has had extensive experience of the love of God (direct experience of His presence by the Spirit) & the spiritual gifts named in the New Testament. I concur entirely with what you've posted, and thank you again, I will be copy/pasting your response to help me explain the same pointers on the same subject to other people who wuery the same question regarding Hell as a concept, etc.

Best wishes,

FITO

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Thank you for that excellent exegesis, you have Biblically confirmed my intuituve knowledge as a Christian who has had extensive experience of the love of God (direct experience of His presence by the Spirit) & the spiritual gifts named in the New Testament. I concur entirely with what you've posted, and thank you again, I will be copy/pasting your response to help me explain the same pointers on the same subject to other people who wuery the same question regarding Hell as a concept, etc.

Best wishes,

FITO

Thank you, FITO! Appreciation is so rare in this area...

originally posted by: rounda


Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Literally says it right there. It is literally saying they will tormented forever...

Its very clear that Christianity believes in punishment after death, and its very clear hell is a place of torment. There are many, many more examples of it in the new testament.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Revelation 14:11 - No, it does not "literally" say what you think. THE SMOKE ascends, and that only for "ages of ages," according to the YLT. Why do you not identify the version you are quoting? I think it is because you believe the Bible you use is the only Bible. Not so - using multiple versions can help you recover from theo-illogical thinking. Hint: some versions are more honest than others.

I believe in punishment after death, but only for an age, and for the ultimate benefit of the one being punished. "Hell" does not enter into it for Christians, as its roots lie in paganism, and I can easily prove it.

Matthew 5:22 - From the YLT, "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." Gehenna was a little valley outside Jerusalem, and you can visit it today. It is hardly "hell." Do you begin to see the dishonesty?

Matthew 13:40-42 - The "blazing furnace" is NOT ID'd as "hell." Again, it is all part of God's being a Refining Fire, and refining men, applying Godfire to the raw ore, drawing off the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble until the silver and gold appear.

Matthew 8:12 - Again, the darkness is not ID'd as "hell." The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not denote "hell" either, unless you are reading the text through a theo-illogical filter. The weepers/gnashers might only be upset at a sudden loss of status as part of the Judgment.

Second Thessalonians 1:6-10 - Again, the punishment is for an age, not "everlasting destruction."

Jesus the Christ boasts in the Revelation that He makes all things new. That includes me, you, everybody.

BTW, Rounda, I have examined every book, chapter and verse in the KJV, so I know how to answer any text you care to throw my way. My notes became a 240+ page book, any part of which I can quote - it is titled "Hell is a 404." I can play "proof-text ping pong" all day long if I'm in the mood...and I haven't even told you why "hell" is pagan. Care to hear it?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda


Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Literally says it right there. It is literally saying they will tormented forever...

Its very clear that Christianity believes in punishment after death, and its very clear hell is a place of torment. There are many, many more examples of it in the new testament.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Revelation 14:11 - No, it does not "literally" say what you think. THE SMOKE ascends, and that only for "ages of ages," according to the YLT. Why do you not identify the version you are quoting? I think it is because you believe the Bible you use is the only Bible. Not so - using multiple versions can help you recover from theo-illogical thinking. Hint: some versions are more honest than others.

I believe in punishment after death, but only for an age, and for the ultimate benefit of the one being punished. "Hell" does not enter into it for Christians, as its roots lie in paganism, and I can easily prove it.

Matthew 5:22 - From the YLT, "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." Gehenna was a little valley outside Jerusalem, and you can visit it today. It is hardly "hell." Do you begin to see the dishonesty?

Matthew 13:40-42 - The "blazing furnace" is NOT ID'd as "hell." Again, it is all part of God's being a Refining Fire, and refining men, applying Godfire to the raw ore, drawing off the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble until the silver and gold appear.

Matthew 8:12 - Again, the darkness is not ID'd as "hell." The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not denote "hell" either, unless you are reading the text through a theo-illogical filter. The weepers/gnashers might only be upset at a sudden loss of status as part of the Judgment.

Second Thessalonians 1:6-10 - Again, the punishment is for an age, not "everlasting destruction."

Jesus the Christ boasts in the Revelation that He makes all things new. That includes me, you, everybody.

No, I don't care to hear why hell is pagan. It's quite obviously Christian.

You can play ping-pong with words all you want, but you're misinterpreting the words.

The word you're arguing about is aionion/aionios, which, in the Greek, means eternal.

You are understanding it to be aion, the root of aionion, which means age. And even then, in the Greek, aion is also understood to be eternal.

And, what is an age when it comes to God?

But, I digress... In your own text, the YLT, the word is "age-during."

2 thess: "destruction age-during."

This literally means "age enduring," or lasting through the ages, eternal.

Proof?

YLT - John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I guess being saved isn't eternal anymore? Then who cares if I'm saved, if I'm only going to be punished for a short period of time relative to the existence of everything? And you're only going to be saved for an age? What happens after that? We both just float around? So I'm on a short time out while you eat some cookies? Big deal....

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

I guess God himself isn't eternal anymore? Then why am I following him? What makes this God so special? Does that mean the Gods that preceded him were also actually Gods? Will other Gods exist after him, and can they save my soul for all eternity?

originally posted by: trollz

originally posted by: noonebutme
And what about aliens on worlds light years from us. Is he their god too? Do they meet him as well?

Yes. There are many worlds and many beings all throughout the layers of existence.

originally posted by: noonebutme
What about polytheists? Which god to they meet as they believe in many? And which god are we talking about? Odin? Ra? Wotan? Genesh? Allah? Zeus?

All of those are just human attempts to explain the underlying concept of a universal creator. There is only one God, which is above and beyond human religion or explanation. To ask which human God is correct is to suggest that humans possess infallible intelligence and knowledge, which is false, so the question therefore is flawed. It's the concept, not the explanation of the concept.
God is one, functioning as a trinity, and divided downwards throughout the layers of reality as a septet, hence the number 7 being of such importance:
1: Father/Son/Spirit
2: Father/Son
3: Father/Spirit
4: Son/Spirit
5: Father
6: Son
7: Spirit

From Chan(precursor of Zen) there is a contemplative meditation known as; "Fall down seven get up eight." Basically, in one arises the transcendence of any and all attachment to that. Though the attachment of others mired or stuck in that, to those that are not? Jut means they have chosen to be heedful to the wrong focus falling into heedlessness... Also known as mistaking the finger for the moon. If someone that has conquered themself so utterly to not have a self except for that ignorant grasping thinking that they do(illusion)? such a thing cannot be helped... the moon has no light of its own and it wouldn't know it even if it did as there is no "moon" that is just a learned noise used to refer to a phenomenon. That phenomenon exists without any utterances or fingers pointing at it both by day and night.

All of those that have learned "noises" for the myriad(innumerable) things are on the fool's errand. And yet the attachment to those noises both internal and external as if they hold up all existence as some sort of firmament is silly.

Language is a thicket of views; That like swords never cease in cutting but like one piece of glass breaking into two to even thousands? Such is their nature and it is what is referred to as an infinite or the infinite... giving birth to all freedom all bondage all sickness or simply put Samsara or a world of "conditioned" existence. Nirvana is what I described as finger pointing at the moon and the assumption of people having a self just to break more glass unnecessarily whether that is intentional or not.

Having been to the "all consciousness"; all it had to say to me? You've seen God; Aw(e)ful(l). it was said; so awful or awefull ...have no way of really knowing... I suppose; I'll contemplate it at some point... but I prefer leaving the rising and falling business to the breath instead of making angels and devils out of them... listening to another's breath when they are not speaking? Is a wise thing to do... as their mind is falling right out of there without them even conscious of saying any words.

A Brahma's house is a Brahmas house... I'd never want to call one of their places "home"; Whether thought of as a Brahmin or not. Freedom is more important and once won? There is no longer any "striving" the task is done.

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda


Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Literally says it right there. It is literally saying they will tormented forever...

Its very clear that Christianity believes in punishment after death, and its very clear hell is a place of torment. There are many, many more examples of it in the new testament.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Revelation 14:11 - No, it does not "literally" say what you think. THE SMOKE ascends, and that only for "ages of ages," according to the YLT. Why do you not identify the version you are quoting? I think it is because you believe the Bible you use is the only Bible. Not so - using multiple versions can help you recover from theo-illogical thinking. Hint: some versions are more honest than others.

I believe in punishment after death, but only for an age, and for the ultimate benefit of the one being punished. "Hell" does not enter into it for Christians, as its roots lie in paganism, and I can easily prove it.

Matthew 5:22 - From the YLT, "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." Gehenna was a little valley outside Jerusalem, and you can visit it today. It is hardly "hell." Do you begin to see the dishonesty?

Matthew 13:40-42 - The "blazing furnace" is NOT ID'd as "hell." Again, it is all part of God's being a Refining Fire, and refining men, applying Godfire to the raw ore, drawing off the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble until the silver and gold appear.

Matthew 8:12 - Again, the darkness is not ID'd as "hell." The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not denote "hell" either, unless you are reading the text through a theo-illogical filter. The weepers/gnashers might only be upset at a sudden loss of status as part of the Judgment.

Second Thessalonians 1:6-10 - Again, the punishment is for an age, not "everlasting destruction."

Jesus the Christ boasts in the Revelation that He makes all things new. That includes me, you, everybody.

No, I don't care to hear why hell is pagan. It's quite obviously Christian.

You can play ping-pong with words all you want, but you're misinterpreting the words.

The word you're arguing about is aionion/aionios, which, in the Greek, means eternal.

You are understanding it to be aion, the root of aionion, which means age. And even then, in the Greek, aion is also understood to be eternal.

And, what is an age when it comes to God?

But, I digress... In your own text, the YLT, the word is "age-during."

2 thess: "destruction age-during."

This literally means "age enduring," or lasting through the ages, eternal.

Proof?

YLT - John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I guess being saved isn't eternal anymore? Then who cares if I'm saved, if I'm only going to be punished for a short period of time relative to the existence of everything? And you're only going to be saved for an age? What happens after that? We both just float around? So I'm on a short time out while you eat some cookies? Big deal....

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

I guess God himself isn't eternal anymore? Then why am I following him? What makes this God so special? Does that mean the Gods that preceded him were also actually Gods? Will other Gods exist after him, and can they save my soul for all eternity?

"Hell" is clearly pagan, for I tracked it back to pagan Norse mythology. I tracked it on my own, with no urging or counsel from anyone. Tell me, do you want the Truth, or just cumfy-wumfy theology?

"Aionion" is one of those crucial words on which so much theology hangs. Some insist that it means "eternal" while others are firm that it means a time period of long but uncertain duration, but not eternity or forever and ever. Keep in mind that concepts such as zero, infinity and eternity were slow to develop. The sophisticated Egyptians expressed eternity as "millions of years." The Hebrew language was even more concrete in its concepts.

My position on judgment and the afterlife is a fail-safe. If I'm right and you're wrong, you still get saved. What's not to like?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda


Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Literally says it right there. It is literally saying they will tormented forever...

Its very clear that Christianity believes in punishment after death, and its very clear hell is a place of torment. There are many, many more examples of it in the new testament.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Revelation 14:11 - No, it does not "literally" say what you think. THE SMOKE ascends, and that only for "ages of ages," according to the YLT. Why do you not identify the version you are quoting? I think it is because you believe the Bible you use is the only Bible. Not so - using multiple versions can help you recover from theo-illogical thinking. Hint: some versions are more honest than others.

I believe in punishment after death, but only for an age, and for the ultimate benefit of the one being punished. "Hell" does not enter into it for Christians, as its roots lie in paganism, and I can easily prove it.

Matthew 5:22 - From the YLT, "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire." Gehenna was a little valley outside Jerusalem, and you can visit it today. It is hardly "hell." Do you begin to see the dishonesty?

Matthew 13:40-42 - The "blazing furnace" is NOT ID'd as "hell." Again, it is all part of God's being a Refining Fire, and refining men, applying Godfire to the raw ore, drawing off the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble until the silver and gold appear.

Matthew 8:12 - Again, the darkness is not ID'd as "hell." The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not denote "hell" either, unless you are reading the text through a theo-illogical filter. The weepers/gnashers might only be upset at a sudden loss of status as part of the Judgment.

Second Thessalonians 1:6-10 - Again, the punishment is for an age, not "everlasting destruction."

Jesus the Christ boasts in the Revelation that He makes all things new. That includes me, you, everybody.

No, I don't care to hear why hell is pagan. It's quite obviously Christian.

You can play ping-pong with words all you want, but you're misinterpreting the words.

The word you're arguing about is aionion/aionios, which, in the Greek, means eternal.

You are understanding it to be aion, the root of aionion, which means age. And even then, in the Greek, aion is also understood to be eternal.

And, what is an age when it comes to God?

But, I digress... In your own text, the YLT, the word is "age-during."

2 thess: "destruction age-during."

This literally means "age enduring," or lasting through the ages, eternal.

Proof?

YLT - John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I guess being saved isn't eternal anymore? Then who cares if I'm saved, if I'm only going to be punished for a short period of time relative to the existence of everything? And you're only going to be saved for an age? What happens after that? We both just float around? So I'm on a short time out while you eat some cookies? Big deal....

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

I guess God himself isn't eternal anymore? Then why am I following him? What makes this God so special? Does that mean the Gods that preceded him were also actually Gods? Will other Gods exist after him, and can they save my soul for all eternity?

"Hell" is clearly pagan, for I tracked it back to pagan Norse mythology. I tracked it on my own, with no urging or counsel from anyone. Tell me, do you want the Truth, or just cumfy-wumfy theology?

"Aionion" is one of those crucial words on which so much theology hangs. Some insist that it means "eternal" while others are firm that it means a time period of long but uncertain duration, but not eternity or forever and ever. Keep in mind that concepts such as zero, infinity and eternity were slow to develop. The sophisticated Egyptians expressed eternity as "millions of years." The Hebrew language was even more concrete in its concepts.

My position on judgment and the afterlife is a fail-safe. If I'm right and you're wrong, you still get saved. What's not to like?

You tracked the word, "Hel," to Norse. But the concept of the afterlife for the Norse was VERY different than the Hell described in the bible.

I like how you failed to address salvation not being eternal nor did you address God not being eternal based on your understanding of the word...

See, the problem is that ancient languages had a limited amount of words.

For instance, the bible, in all 400,000 words contained within the pages, only 8,200 are unique.

8,200 words. Sorry, but in 8,200 words, you cannot be "concrete" in concepts, especially when you consider both ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek only had an estimated 60,000 total words. Compare that to modern English, with an estimated 1,000,000 words, or modern Greek, with an estimated 5,000,000 words.

Which is why if you look up the definition for something like "day/yom" in Genesis 1, you see things like "day," "time," "year," "lifetime," etc...

Because words in ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek meant multiple things. And what they meant came from the context in which they were used.

But, with regard to your concept on judgement and salvation, it's nice that you've come up with a fail-safe. Except that's not what the bible says.

Which is kind of a problem if you're a Christian.

originally posted by: rounda

You tracked the word, "Hel," to Norse. But the concept of the afterlife for the Norse was VERY different than the Hell described in the bible.

I like how you failed to address salvation not being eternal nor did you address God not being eternal based on your understanding of the word...

See, the problem is that ancient languages had a limited amount of words.

For instance, the bible, in all 400,000 words contained within the pages, only 8,200 are unique.

8,200 words. Sorry, but in 8,200 words, you cannot be "concrete" in concepts, especially when you consider both ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek only had an estimated 60,000 total words. Compare that to modern English, with an estimated 1,000,000 words, or modern Greek, with an estimated 5,000,000 words.

Which is why if you look up the definition for something like "day/yom" in Genesis 1, you see things like "day," "time," "year," "lifetime," etc...

Because words in ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek meant multiple things. And what they meant came from the context in which they were used.

But, with regard to your concept on judgement and salvation, it's nice that you've come up with a fail-safe. Except that's not what the bible says.

Which is kind of a problem if you're a Christian.

Yes, the "hel/hell/helle" of Norse mythology differs from that of the Bible...which differs from the "hell" of Dante, which differs from the "hell" of Milton, which differs from the "hell" of Mary K. Baxter. That's how fiction goes. The "hell" of the Bible is an insertion, and EVERY pagan religion has a "hell" and demons.

God has no beginning and no end - therefore, He is eternal. We have a beginning, so even if we are resurrected and live in the Kingdom forever and ever...we do not have eternal life. It is life "age-during" or age-to-age or ages of ages.

Salvation for all is EXACTLY what the Bible says, if you are able to see past the bad translation. We all have absolute assurance of living in the Kingdom for ages of ages, even if you cannot see it - some only after corrective punishment.

"Except that's not what the bible says." again assumes that there is one, and only one, Bible. One symptom of that is that you do not ID what translation you are using, but then most people don't. The debates between one Christian camp and another Christian camp go on and on, and never get resolved because one side clings so tightly to a Bible version which may not be the best. Wise Christians read (and compare!) multiple versions. My father, who I think was very wise, used a Bible containing four versions side-by-side.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

You tracked the word, "Hel," to Norse. But the concept of the afterlife for the Norse was VERY different than the Hell described in the bible.

I like how you failed to address salvation not being eternal nor did you address God not being eternal based on your understanding of the word...

See, the problem is that ancient languages had a limited amount of words.

For instance, the bible, in all 400,000 words contained within the pages, only 8,200 are unique.

8,200 words. Sorry, but in 8,200 words, you cannot be "concrete" in concepts, especially when you consider both ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek only had an estimated 60,000 total words. Compare that to modern English, with an estimated 1,000,000 words, or modern Greek, with an estimated 5,000,000 words.

Which is why if you look up the definition for something like "day/yom" in Genesis 1, you see things like "day," "time," "year," "lifetime," etc...

Because words in ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek meant multiple things. And what they meant came from the context in which they were used.

But, with regard to your concept on judgement and salvation, it's nice that you've come up with a fail-safe. Except that's not what the bible says.

Which is kind of a problem if you're a Christian.

Yes, the "hel/hell/helle" of Norse mythology differs from that of the Bible...which differs from the "hell" of Dante, which differs from the "hell" of Milton, which differs from the "hell" of Mary K. Baxter. That's how fiction goes. The "hell" of the Bible is an insertion, and EVERY pagan religion has a "hell" and demons.

God has no beginning and no end - therefore, He is eternal. We have a beginning, so even if we are resurrected and live in the Kingdom forever and ever...we do not have eternal life. It is life "age-during" or age-to-age or ages of ages.

Salvation for all is EXACTLY what the Bible says, if you are able to see past the bad translation. We all have absolute assurance of living in the Kingdom for ages of ages, even if you cannot see it - some only after corrective punishment.

"Except that's not what the bible says." again assumes that there is one, and only one, Bible. One symptom of that is that you do not ID what translation you are using, but then most people don't. The debates between one Christian camp and another Christian camp go on and on, and never get resolved because one side clings so tightly to a Bible version which may not be the best. Wise Christians read (and compare!) multiple versions. My father, who I think was very wise, used a Bible containing four versions side-by-side.

I repeat:

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

So, by your definition of the word, God is not eternal.

originally posted by: rounda

I repeat:

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

So, by your definition of the word, God is not eternal.

Seriously? Right after I explained why God is eternal...and we are not?! First, the YLT verse you dug out is NOT my definition - it is Young's. I take no credit, and I agree he was wrong there. Second, after a reply like yours above, why should I post to you anymore? You seem to only want to argue, but are not teachable and you do not correct yourself when corrected.

a reply to: Crowfoot

Having been to the "all consciousness"

1. You have seen all of the conciousnesses?
2. Is it dangerous to do so? (look at all the conciousnesses)
3. How can one go about doing that?
4. Do conciousnesses really punish people like the religious books threaten they will?
5. Are conciousnesses in competition for human attention?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

I repeat:

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

So, by your definition of the word, God is not eternal.

Seriously? Right after I explained why God is eternal...and we are not?! First, the YLT verse you dug out is NOT my definition - it is Young's. I take no credit, and I agree he was wrong there. Second, after a reply like yours above, why should I post to you anymore? You seem to only want to argue, but are not teachable and you do not correct yourself when corrected.

So you're trying to teach and correct me now?

When YOU'RE the one using an errant translation, which you even agree to be errant, to advance an argument?

Seems to me you're preaching false doctrine.

So I'm just doing my duty, warning those who cannot see through the wool to the wolf hiding behind it.

1 Timothy 5:20
But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

Earth is hell.
Spirit is infinite, earth and matter are finite.
When you die in the heaven you are born on earth into bondage.

Psalm 23:4 “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.”

Valley of the shadow of death = earth

Death = earth, underworld, finite, fallen

Heaven and earth = heaven and hell, world and underworld, immortal and mortal, absolute and relative



a reply to: Lazarus Short

a reply to: FactCheckingFrancine

Best thought of as a door same door eventually coming to both sides of it and seeing that there is no door; each person has to face both sides of it and what they see there on either side is personal.

Freedom results but both sides of it are very difficult to face sometimes it takes innumerable lifetimes sometimes just one but in doing one will remember all past lifetimes(irrelevant) even though some attach significance to such a recall.

Of course when facing whatever it is or takes shape as like whatever pops out of the Harry Potter closet known as ridiculous? It's only a hindrance to think anything of it as "thoughts" are what built it.

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

I repeat:

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

So, by your definition of the word, God is not eternal.

Seriously? Right after I explained why God is eternal...and we are not?! First, the YLT verse you dug out is NOT my definition - it is Young's. I take no credit, and I agree he was wrong there. Second, after a reply like yours above, why should I post to you anymore? You seem to only want to argue, but are not teachable and you do not correct yourself when corrected.

So you're trying to teach and correct me now?

When YOU'RE the one using an errant translation, which you even agree to be errant, to advance an argument?

Seems to me you're preaching false doctrine.

So I'm just doing my duty, warning those who cannot see through the wool to the wolf hiding behind it.

1 Timothy 5:20
But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

I quoted relevant passages of the YLT, and you dug up ONE VERSE out of a whole Bible, which you saw to be in error. I saw it too, but you call me a wolf in wool? You accuse me of preaching false doctrine?? Yet, you will not agree when I point out multiple errors in the KJV. You are a false accuser. Begone!

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: rounda

I repeat:

YLT - Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

So, by your definition of the word, God is not eternal.

Seriously? Right after I explained why God is eternal...and we are not?! First, the YLT verse you dug out is NOT my definition - it is Young's. I take no credit, and I agree he was wrong there. Second, after a reply like yours above, why should I post to you anymore? You seem to only want to argue, but are not teachable and you do not correct yourself when corrected.

So you're trying to teach and correct me now?

When YOU'RE the one using an errant translation, which you even agree to be errant, to advance an argument?

Seems to me you're preaching false doctrine.

So I'm just doing my duty, warning those who cannot see through the wool to the wolf hiding behind it.

1 Timothy 5:20
But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

I quoted relevant passages of the YLT, and you dug up ONE VERSE out of a whole Bible, which you saw to be in error. I saw it too, but you call me a wolf in wool? You accuse me of preaching false doctrine?? Yet, you will not agree when I point out multiple errors in the KJV. You are a false accuser. Begone!

You quoted passages from a specific translation to advance an argument. You know it contains incorrect translations.

That is the definition of preaching false doctrine.