Vaccine Trial - Help Needed - Clarification Required

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: and14263

Look the point is the long term affects aren’t known, a vaccine is normally tested for 6-10 years. This one was rushed out under emergency use authorisation, meaning it’s still in the experimental phase. As such you have a right to refuse it by law.

Also a proper vaccine doesn’t wear off over time, and require endless boosters. A proper vaccine prevents you from catching and passing on whatever it is.

Tell your company you will take them to court over discrimination If they persist.

No, that's not the point.

The point is, I need to create a strong and reasonable argument against intelligent professionals who will no doubt dispute many areas of my argument. To be prepared well is to succeed.

I do indeed have the right to refuse by law, and threaten the company with legal proceedings - but neither of those two methods of attack will result in a favourable image of me as an employee.

If I create an intelligent, mature and indisputable argument, delivered in a respectable manner I will avoid any negative confrontations and my image as a good employee will not be tarnished - which as an adult with financial commitments is important to me.

a reply to: nugget1

Thank you. This does indeed help.

a reply to: pheonix358

As I mentioned above, it might well be a method of attack that works. But the overall outcome is not putting me in a favourable light.

I prefer to develop a well thought out, indisputable argument to communicate my stance.

I am dealing with professionals here who may well have been taken in by propaganda - therefore I need to be careful about what words I use and how I do it.

I think I have pretty much written my entire piece, I just did not know how to construct the small paragraph on animal testing.

a reply to: TrollMagnet

OK thanks. This goes a long way to understanding why the trials were described as "skipped".

Here is the entire vaccine trial Public Assessment Report:

Link to PDF - 74 pages.

I won't list everything I question in it. But it is worth reading and comparing to criticisms if you want to formulate a strong argument.

originally posted by: surfer_soul

Also a proper vaccine doesn’t wear off over time, and require endless boosters. A proper vaccine prevents you from catching and passing on whatever it is.

So the tetanus vaccine (5 jabs + boosters throughout life) isn't a proper vaccine then. And obviously the 'flu vaccine (needed annually and you can still catch and pass on 'flu) certainly can't be .....

Oh, wait, you've just re-defined the meaning of vaccine to suit your own ignorance!

I was thinking along similar lines for an argument against getting vaxxed to go to work, but the "facts" are in flux and changing with "the science". The situation is so complex that I've come to realize that when you have to make an argument based on the reports and studies, most people you are talking to are lost on even the simplest concepts related to the virus. It would be easier to make a religious exemption argument or one based on the principle of personal rights and the lack of legal recourse regarding adverse reactions.

My objection is based on numerous aspects in many areas and amounts to paranoid conspiracy theories in the minds of many who are not as well informed. Plopping down a four inch thick printed report explaining the various proofs supporting your contentions is only going to make you look pretty extreme and on the lunatic fringe to those who have not taken the time to do the deep research already.

The most simple and logical reasoning must be used to convince those who are mostly ignorant of the situation.

a reply to: and14263

You go this route to kiss azz to keep this job? Honestly. You can't do better than an argue against policies ( whatever)...just to keep your job.

It must be something awesome, wage, working conds, location, benefits etc etc.

That you think it'd work...well ...don't grovel. Work and great jobs are now plentiful.
(Wife is Soc Work Employ Spec....there are millions of jobs now.

originally posted by: AndyMayhew

originally posted by: surfer_soul

Also a proper vaccine doesn’t wear off over time, and require endless boosters. A proper vaccine prevents you from catching and passing on whatever it is.

So the tetanus vaccine (5 jabs + boosters throughout life) isn't a proper vaccine then. And obviously the 'flu vaccine (needed annually and you can still catch and pass on 'flu) certainly can't be .....

Oh, wait, you've just re-defined the meaning of vaccine to suit your own ignorance!

You mean it is mandated to take a tetanus booster or flu shot in the UK ?
Do tell , please .
And both listed passed proper testing .
This thread is about the mandate by an employer who are not medical professionals .

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Luckily they are a group of managers very much familiar with deep technical scientific reports.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

You have an interesting interpretation of kissing ass. A well thought out robust argument which doesn't diminish my professional status is not kissing ass, it is just a sensible mature approach to employment.

This happens in professional industries.

And yes, this job would not happen again on all those factors you mention..... Location, benefits etc

a reply to: and14263

I just wanted to throw these links into the mix. Seems there were many warning signs about the dangers and side effects of a SARS vaccine going back 20 years. Its horrifying they ever thought they could rush any vaccine in this category after previous results.

4-20-12 Immunization with SARS Coronavirus Vaccines Leads to Pulmonary Immunopathology on Challenge with the SARS Virus: journals.plos.org.../journal.pone.0035421

2-13-04 Caution Urged on SARS Vaccines:
www.science.org...

11-7-05 SARS Vaccine Development:
wwwnc.cdc.gov...

They clearly knew long ago that this category of vaccine was NOT like other diseases. Then they came up with mRNA, and pushed it out to us in a fraction of the time compared to past studies, and called is "safe and effective" which my research has taught me is because thats an FDA phrase that has meaning.

If you want to find good data, I suggest using Duck Duck Go and excluding all results after 2019. Thats the only way I find I can avoid propaganda articles on this subject and get right to the science itself.

Also, a couple of papers on animal studies. You will see from the research, you should have zero comfort because something was tested on animals first.

Lost in translation: animal models and clinical trials in cancer treatment:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Animal Testing and Human Trials: Alternatives or Complements?:
speakingofresearch.com...

Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Luckily they are a group of managers very much familiar with deep technical scientific reports.

I'm sure you know the proper approach in presenting your case in this particular venue. I'm just relating my personal experience in dealing with my situation.

Maybe a power point presentation would work in certain situations, I personally wouldn't want to go through such extremes to an audience that are likely determined to get me jabbed for the job.

a reply to: and14263

If you succeed then other employees can use the same argument, thereby undermining the companies policy.

Do you think these “professionals” GAF about how nicely you went about it?

No, if they GAF they wouldn't be pushin the BS in the first place.

Prepare to start looking for another job is my advice...

a reply to: and14263

What I say stands. I respond. I kiss no one's a- We help n treat, save n transport...and don't care anyway, shape or form...what color you are or what you do or don't believe.

On this? If you have to petition your higher ups...you're running scared.

Jobs abound. Great pay. Benefits. Work enviro, 401k, vac, sick.....

I'm just saying...to have to prepare to petition any boss for your point not to be fired over this..ok. Must have all the above and be a great job...

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

It won't be a PowerPoint 👍

a reply to: MykeNukem

It's not a company policy, it's looking like it will be a requirement for international travel. Job requires travel.

I am the only employee in this situation.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

It's not a petition.

And yes. It's an incredible job.

I'm not scared, just sensible. Fully aware of how to get the result I want without bravado.

I should probably add... I do not see any of my colleagues or management face to face. They are not in my country. So it must come in the form of a report.

a reply to: AndyMayhew

Tetanus is not a virus. You're welcome.