New Agers Vs. Skeptics: The Great Divide

Most New-Agers have zero knowledge of the background or specifics of the traditions they are attempting to respect, and make little or no effort to learn.

I did not even know most New-Agers painted Native American stuff on their walls. By the way, how is that disrespecting?

You mean her post?

Nope, the letter by Ms. McLaren (the link is in the first post). All of her book reviews on Amazon look pretty good...

In psychology when skeptics and believers are discussed, we use the terms sheep and goat. However, in reality, there are sheep and goats on both side.

Sheep and goats? That's not from the bible, is it?

Until humanity realises that not everything can be measured or poked with a stick then there is always gona be this division of minds.

Some people want proof

Some people spend there whole lives as living proof to themselves.

A lot of so called "new age" stuff to me seems conflicting e.g One person says one thing about a piece of quartz, while another says a totally differant thing while a third party says they are both mistaken. This can be observed in a hell of a lot of newage/spiritual things. There doesn't seem to me to be one group or organisation that agrees on absolutley everything where people can come together.

Because of this im on a mission of my own. I will read spiritual/new age books but not as guides, just as a way of looking at other peoples views and experiences. I will continue to meditate, practice yoga and have lucid dreams and astral project and hopefully one day I will find the answers to all my questions all by myself.

= p e a c e=

Originally posted by LadyV
As a Native American, I couldn't of said it any better...

Cool, what tribe? I'm Sac & Fox.

it has become very "trendy" to display NA "type" objects! I am also very sick of the disturbing of our dead....they want to say it is in the interest of history...let me go dig up anyone out of a cemetery and see how long it takes them to throw my butt in the pokey! Sorry...I got off topic here....
I'll go be quiet now.

By all means, speak out! I'm rather upset about it myself.
Of course, I'm a huge glutton for Meso-American culture, which we'd know very little about were it not for the gravediggers. I suppose in my mind, I can justify excavations in the interests of preserving history, but the looters really tick me off to no end.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I did not even know most New-Agers painted Native American stuff on their walls. By the way, how is that disrespecting?

Err, that wasn't quite my point. I'm not saying most new-agers do that, I was giving an example of one type of new-ager. Another type is the kind that believes crystals will solve all their problems, or that claim to be alchemists without ever having read historical texts like the Book of Lambspring or the Keys of Basil Valentine.

It's just the ones I've been exposed to more often than not are the ones who try to play at Native American spiritual beliefs. "Oh, the mother goddess of Earth, and Father Sky" sort of BS. For one thing, there IS no "Native American Religion" There were over 500 Nations in America before whitey and smallpox decimated them, each with very unique views ranging from animism to polytheism to monotheism, some of the practices were downright evil and horrible, and some were gentle and kind. They had their own brand of a-holes just like whitey has. Yet somehow people group all this into a nature-loving hippy rehash and follow it as if it were one ancient religion.

It's no different than how I feel about Christians who can't even recall a proper bible passage. I haven't been a Christian for over 15 years now, and I can quote the bible better than most died in the wool southern baptists, often with book, chapter, and verse markers...

So it's not that I dislike people who try to study alternate religions. Indeed, I encourage everyone to challenge their beliefs daily, in order to strengthen their resolve and find what truly works. And I don't even mind it when people make up their own religion. Heck, I follow a religion that's a salad bar of many religions. I take what I want, and leave the rest.

What I find disrespectful is when people claim to be of a particular religion, without having learned any of the history short of what someone else told them they were told by someone else, or what they can get for $10 at some Barne's & Noble book while sipping their Starbucks.

As for why I find things like dreamcatchers and wolfmoons, and stuff like that to be disrespectful, is because the way that they are used and displayed usually shows a complete disregard or ignorance of the intended use. A dreamcatcher should not be made of plastic beads and fishing line, and it sure as hell shouldn't adorn a rearview mirror. A wolf and a moon meant 500 different things to 500 different tribes. Some of them found the wolf to be a friend, others found it as a source of great evil, and some found it to be something altogether different. Some didn't even see wolves because not every nation was located in a place to which they were indigenous. Likewise, the moon could mean thousands of different things, depending on the weather, the season, the phase, the context, the location, and so forth. It could have been a sign of great wisdom, a sign of great foolishness, a sign of evil, a sign of hatred, a sign of love... any of these things, and each tribe had a different interpretation of what they meant. Sometimes the tribe itself could not agree.

The people who display these things are not well-versed in the signs. Heck, most of the elders of each tribe aren't too sure anymore, as whitey often made the tribes own religions so illegal as to be cause for death or imprisonment. For all the typical new-ager knows, they are displaying a prominent sign of xenocide or a similar evil.

Well you said most of those new-agers who don't respect history and then gave the NA painting examples. However, you do know that NA does not apply to all 'new agers'

As for crystals, they do have healing properties, but they are not a panacea. I am sure any intelligent 'new agers' will know this. Crystal healing comes from the proven system of ancient Ayurvedic medicine. This is holistic therapy that is based on curing any illness by mind, body and spirit.

Crystals are used as well, however only to supplement other healing processes. So, that's the history of it, and I am not lost on it am I?

You are taking one bush and painting us all one colour in one stroke. However, you know this is not true. Similarily, there are skeptics who disrespect facts and history.

As I said we have our "UFO's are pilots chasing fireflies" and "Mother Earth and father sky will save the world" on both sides. Let's not exaggerate the differences by sidelining one.

[edit on 30-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by LadyV
As a Native American, I couldn't of said it any better...

Cool, what tribe? I'm Sac & Fox.

Cherokee/Lumbee 1/2 the other 1/2 is Italian



[edit on 3/30/2005 by LadyV]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
However, you do know that NA does not apply to all 'new agers'

Oh, to be sure. There are many "new agers" that I respect, but I don't refer to them as new agers, I usually refer to them as something along the lines of a theologian or pagan scholar, or something to that effect, because it implies more respect (in my mind at least).

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
As for crystals, they do have healing properties, but they are not a panacea. I am sure any intelligent 'new agers' will know this.

Welllll..... some cultures attributed healing properties to them, some gave meditative properties, and so on... but I agree, intelligent people will see it is not a magic solution to every situation. Unfortunately, the majority...er...well, that's not exactly fair to say... the most visible Crystal People appear nuttier than a fruitbat, putting more faith in their rocks than themselves or anyone else.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
So, that's the history of it, and I am not lost on it am I?

There's more, to be sure, but no, Indigo_Child, you are one of the few "out there" people I can respect, because I've read how deep you research the things you believe fervantly in. We may not always agree, but I can be quite well assured you did your homework.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You are taking one bush and painting us all one colour in one stroke. However, you know this is not true. Similarily, there are skeptics who disrespect facts and history.

I agree to both statements. Again, though, that bush I painted makes up the vast majority of visible new agers. I will fully admit there are many new agers who are well researched, and are completely sane. Minus the "sane" part, I like to consider myself one of them. However, the topic wasn't "Why New Agers Are Great", it was more to the effect of why New Agers and Skeptics don't see eye to eye, and that's the biggest reason I personally can think of.

Most skeptics, as a rule, like proof, be it in research, impenetrable logic, deep philosophical meditation, or cold, hard, evidence. Usually what they perceive, from the words and actions of most New Agers, is nothing more than the latest fad found in the "Occult" section of Barne's & Noble.

I must admit, though, you are correct, skeptics have their equally ridiculous members as well, and I know some of them. You could show them a living, breathing alien being, a fully functional mothership, and a myriad of technology they'd never seen, and they'd dismiss it as one of George Lucas's movie sets, or their mind would simply shut down and they'll blank out in the face of too much challenging their beliefs at once. Perhaps they are either too stubborn, too brainwashed, or too devout in their personal beliefs, that they will never accept any form of proof that challenges their opinions. I'd like to say these people are equally discredited in the skeptic's community, but alas, they are usually considered the paragons of credibility. If you can get Mr. X, who believes nothing, to finally believe in Z, then it must be true, because of the mountains of hard, indisputable evidence and analysis it will take to convince them.

That's the reason I go with the term "Eclectic Skeptic". I know there are things out there beyond that of human comprehension. However, that's also the same reason I find it so hard to believe anyone when they claim to know what it's all about.

Cassie Clay that was a very well done piece of writting and it really hits the nail on the head.There are examples of this type of thing happening right now, people who suddenly through chanelling have become "perfect Beings" and claim to be of a different human makeup. Its all a person can do to show composure and bite ones lip, and not mock this all together. It has really gotten out of hand and there are no shortages of people who will lap this up without objective scrutiny.

Cassie Clay,

What you just discovered it took me about 20 years to find out by myself, after that I am living a life free of superstitions and wrong believes.

Its good to liberate your self if you take advantage of it you will discover what is the true meaning of being here in this earth and what really is beyond our human body.

I will said not more. "life as we know it is just but a blink of our eternal existence"

Boy putting things right on the table arn't we.
Well here my worthless 2 cents. After growing up white on Indian lands and schools, then studying shamanism, with Indian teachers, and reading the older writings, I completely agree with Libra. That, we white folk, whom my family killed off some of them, which I have always regretted. The Indians killed of some of mine. Never have figured out way we could not live together. Well some of the tribes I understand, they could not live with anyone, just plain mean. Some folks paint far to pretty a picture of Indians sometimes. They were people just like us, they cried, died, laughed, and loved like anybody else. They had heroes and zeros. Shame so many are gone, many were great nations. Pardon the use of the word Indian, that is how I grew up, and hold that word with great respect. As, my family fought them, and had nothing but respect for their ways. Small pox was unavoidable, but soon or later it was coming. White man or not. The killing, well that was wrong, mostly. Sometimes, it is the way of life. Two cultures crashing into each other.
In the end, I realized there is some wisdom in Indian cultures and religions, but it is also part tribal, and closed. But, what people are without wisdom? What person is without wisdom? When you dump your own peoples and take up another’s, you are sure to fail as you are looking for a master, not wisdom, and reason.
Well, I missed my own point, Truth and wisdom should be everyone’s goal, not trappings of a culture, that is your own emptiness and cheapness, dressed up in someone else’s clothes. The way of the Indian, is not anybody elses way. Don't mean we can learn something for them. Sorry, to all those whom my family past may have wrongly hurt or killed. Of course some of them earned it, most didn’t. I miss the Buffalo, that is a real shame. Wisdom is in the heart, not the head. Funny ....I hear old ones singing.

Originally posted by sardion2000
The reason for the divide between "New Agers and Skeptics" is because the Skeptics see New Age religiouns as just the same old thang in a different package. Also Skeptics also look at New Agers as more then a lil nutz and you know what I agree! Anyone willing to put "faith" in something that cannot be empiracally proven to me is Ignorance Incarnate. I'm sorry I do not mean to offend but that is just how I see it.

Regards,
Chris the Crotchety Athiest

Ignorance Incarnate? I guess thats me then. I have seen so many things in my life that cannot be empirically proven. So many, in fact, that I eventually gave in and said, enough already, I believe for real now. I believe in many things that science cannot confirm, and yet I consider myself a skeptic.
I am skeptical of the party line. The skepticism I have always had has led me to research the validity of many things our universities teach, that did not make sense to me. My findings, mostly, have been that I don't believe their theories. Examples of things I find erroneous are: The ice age theory, which is so full of holes......., anyway, and the age of the Giza Pyramids, and Sphinx, my research puts their age much older, ie: 10 000 years old, or so. The Bering land bridge migration being the origins of Native Americans. The people themselves disagree with that theory, and I am with them, they were here far longer than is taught.
There are more, I just wanted to cite a few.
I am a skeptic, just not the kind most envision, I am skeptical of the establishments conclusions, and find many provably false.

I'm proud of you Cassie, for whatever thats worth.

Many people follow beliefs blindly, never questioning or going beyond the dogma to find out whats real, or at least what is applicable to their own lives.

You took that step and went beyond the new agers dogma, It's a big step my friend. I feel like we should be having a graduation ceremony for you

Free the chains on your mind and the chains on your soul will vanish.

Love and light,

Wupy

I think the real issue that pisses "skeptics" off is not someone's private belief in life after death, aliens, or conspiracies or things of that nature (a lot of people who think about current affairs and history have their own little "abnormal" beliefs so to speak). It's not even a casual mentioning to friends about a strange experience when the topic has been brought up in conversation (most people have had one of those and that isn't unusual).

What aggravates "skeptics" is the "I am holier than thou" attittude due to reading books which tells them that they are special and have a duty to heal the world and everyone they meet. The new age is not short of them. I have experienced all sorts of different stuff like this but always boils down to "holier than thou". Some poeple have said to me that they were not sure if I was at the right stage of my spiritual evolution to take this information. (like they are 6th dimenional light being king and queens lol)

I once read a new age book and some new ager I knew was frightened that i might have come across it before he had. This meant that I would have been more ready for this information at an earlier stage and therefore an "older more advanced soul" than they were. I mean for #'s sake give it a rest.

If unity and finding the common things shared by man is the goal, that is the wrong way to go about things. I should know, I was one of these new agey type people when I younger. I still do some new agye things like taichi like exercies and I'm into health products in a big way, but luckily I have got rid of the aloof "holier than thou" personality and for that I am grateful.

(posted by Cassie Clay)
Folks, "satan" never possessed me, never harrassed me, never even made an appearance--because satan does not exist. Evil exists, in the minds and hearts of some human beings--and sometimes we personify that evil as "Satan."

Your conclusion seems to be that since it never happened to you then it can't happen to anybody else. The conclusion should be that there are mature, old or "overripe" souls that are strong enough to ward off such attacks. It has nothing to do with arguing about the existence of an Emperor of Evil. Who cares whether or not the attackers have a feudal lord? They attack nonetheless.

I once lived in the same house with someone who was not strong enough and was on the point of suffering a nervous breakdown. It all started when she offended someone and this other person started using witchcraft to destroy her, and the harassment began. She was advised to go to the cemetery at night and dig up and destroy some objects that this person had placed there during a ritual. She went there with others and while doing that they were drenched by foul-smelling water that fell on them.

That turned out to be useless, however. The attacks continued, and so she was told that she had better go settle down in another city, and that's when I met her, because she moved into a room next to mine. Nothing ever happened to me but the things that she told me were so alarming that I adopted the habit of always sleeping with the light on.

One day, for example, she got up and found on the lid of a big stewpot a ring of some sort of white powder. Another day she woke up and found a scar on her knee. It was always little things designed to keep her in a state of permanent terror. She moved out and I never knew how things turned out eventually. Years later I came across her in the street and she invited me over for lunch, and it was obvious that she had finished paying off this karmic debt of hers, because she was now at ease, but I dared not inquire about the matter. During her ordeal I had commented that she had probably once used witchcraft against someone in a previous life.

Now going from real life to the books, I have read in my theosophy books, which belonged to a relative, that 1) going to brothels is not advisable since evil spirits attach themselves to those who do so and will follow them around indefinitely, that 2) the worst thing that one can do to a criminal, no matter how horrible the crime, is to execute him since the soul will then roam the astral plane and go around influencing the emotions of people in the flesh --better to keep him locked up where one can see what he is up to at all times-- and other things which may or may not be fables made up by the seers of the Theosophical Society. I have no way of corroborating such things.

Moral: If your clothes are made of straw then don't go near the fire.
*

For those of you who believe in these things, one book I recommend is "Michelle Remembers". It is worth reading if you are a total skeptic, too, since it is an enthralling read. It is about a woman who starts to have odd things happen, rashes, very realistic nightmares, etc., which bother her to the point of going to see a psychiatrist. It is set in Victoria, BC, Canada, where I grew up, so when I read it, the placenames, streetnames, etc. were all familiar to me. I read it when I was about 18, and it scared me enough that I slept with the light on for a couple of nights.
Her psychiatrist put her under hypnosis and recorded the sessions, and she recounted her early childhood memories. They were horrific to say the least. I couldn't put the book down once I started it. The story is not totally hearsay, either, their is physical, documented evidence which is cited in the book to support her story....... of being used in a Satanic ritual as a 5 year old.

(eleventy zillion apologies for resurrecting this thread - I just got here, mkay? Well. Sort of)

I was under the impression that such Satanic Ritual Abuse cases had been largely debunked?

This Link is a must-read.

Religious Tolerance link

Another well researched link

Whilst in my own mind there's no doubt that Michelle's experience was real to her on at least some level, there's just no evidence to support her claims, nor the claims of virtually any other case.

Comments welcomed though - unless this is discussed elsewhere? I did use the search function, honest!

new age stuff is a bunch of crap that begun in the 1960s and slowly got more popular but there is the paranormal field which i am intersted in.

[edit on 10-7-2005 by healthyhitter]

Originally posted by healthyhitter

new age stuff is a bunch of crap that begun in the 1960s and slowly got more popular but there is the paranormal field which i am intersted in.

[edit on 10-7-2005 by healthyhitter]

Ok. Any chance you can be more specific here?

What "new age stuff" exactly are you talking about?

What makes you say it's a "bunch of crap"?

Do you have any reasons or backup for your statements?

Well first off I'm always a little suspicious of people who can veer from one extreme position to another, she sounds a little obsessive compulsive in that respect, has she ever tried examining the middle ground and coming to speculative conclusions rather than only feeling comfortable when cleaving to a hardline stance.

Firstly New Age is such a catch all term for such diverse areas, some of which seem no more than mumbo jumbo BS, others that have some cautious positive conclusions. How can you study this under such a broad generalisation and come to any proper conclusions...unless you adopt hardline materialism and then of course it's all crap, we don't need to examine it we already know it's crap.

Cranks exist on both sides of the fence.

yah take chakra for example i beleive it was in some sort of asian relegion and i think they have begun to associate it with different things kinda but the stupidest thing ive ever heard of about new age stuff was a book i read called ufos in the new age the book tried to impose that 1000 people would be taken from earth to be enleigntend by aliens. not to mention hippies and new agers have had a history of substance abuse for their new age practice.

as for what makes me say its a bunch of crap its that hippies and new agers arent very creadible look at their history since the 60s there actions speak for themselves and tinkleflower i know your not a hippie supporter your just being inquistive and asking questions to fill up forums.

tinkleflower this is not the first time youve asked me to be more specific on my point of view or my assumption.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by healthyhitter]