deforestation, mass extinction in Haiti

whyy.org...

Using NASA satellite imagery to analyze the landscape, Hedges and his colleagues found the country has only about one percent of its primary forest left, as people have been cutting down trees to farm and to make charcoal for cooking.

“People working in Haiti could see there was very little forest left,” he said. “None of us really expected it to disappear that quickly.”

I'm not particularly green but this is troubling.
the people there are extremely poor and there are no fossil fuels so they have to cut down all the trees
resulting in loss of animal habitat, as well as erosion as the soil washes away without the tree roots.

I wonder if Haiti is overpopulated.
I've know a few people that have been there and they all hated it.

a reply to: ElGoobero

If I'm not mistaken, that's the same thing that is said happened on Easter Island, that and rats.
Some try to say that they cut all the trees down to move the Moai, but everybody knows the Moai walked to where they are now.

Deforestation in Haiti isn’t a new thing, them folks there been doing it for a long long time and as far as I know is the single cause of devastating mud slides ever couple years during the rainy season.

a reply to: ElGoobero

It's pretty grim.

I remember when I visited the Dominican we drove along a road that overlooked the border, you could see a massive rainforest wall on the Dominican side and then just bare empty farm land on the Haiti side.

It is a shame to see what people are doing to this world. Then to blame it on Carbon emmissions, carbon emissions do have some effect, but most of the destruction is caused by people's wants not their needs. I am sure there is a market for most of the timber that left Haiti, the reason for the logging was not to feed their people, it was to feed people who waste so much food in the world. I dislike when we waste anything, I even try to feed the potato and carrot peels to the deer and other animals. We recycle and have recycled for many years, we combine trips and have for decades, even when I was young and dumb, I did not waste and did not buy things I did not need...except of course Beer when I was a teenager, but I needed that because I was a nerd trying to fit in.

This is not new. I was on an over flight of Haiti in 2002. It was easy to tell where the border with the D.R. was, even back then. Haiti is a living example of how not to manage natural resources. The people are unhappy and the young girls are desperate to work the prostitution industry through out the Caribbean. It’s truly a mess. After the earthquake, both the Clinton and Bush family’s stole most of the international aide that was destined for the island. Do a little research.

Once the Clinton foundation got involved in helping in Haiti, it was over for them.

Expect huge pushes for aid and donations as their natural resources run out. Nobody there ever once thought past their own self (see Mormons, christians, Muslims, etc) so they've just created more and more people to destroy their natural resources.

Locusts and many bacteria operate in the same way, but it always results in the same outcome.
Once the resources are depleted, the population will crash until equilibrium is met.
What happens in the mean time is ugly.

We're seeing similar problems world wide, but more commonly with the fiat currency we created, which has a much shorter lifespan.

Population will crash in Haiti once they finish destroying their land. The rest of us will give them aid until our own populations begin to crash.

Good luck everybody

originally posted by: rickymouse
It is a shame to see what people are doing to this world. Then to blame it on Carbon emmissions, carbon emissions do have some effect, but most of the destruction is caused by people's wants not their needs. I am sure there is a market for most of the timber that left Haiti, the reason for the logging was not to feed their people, it was to feed people who waste so much food in the world. I dislike when we waste anything, I even try to feed the potato and carrot peels to the deer and other animals. We recycle and have recycled for many years, we combine trips and have for decades, even when I was young and dumb, I did not waste and did not buy things I did not need...except of course Beer when I was a teenager, but I needed that because I was a nerd trying to fit in.

things like eating and a roof over their heads is just wants, and not a need? since i am sure that most of that lumber was used for things like building roofs over their heads. as well as for use for rather important things like cooking and heating. and not just being sold off offshore or something. remember they are rebuilding from a hurricane, a process that i know from experience takes years, possibly decades. and this is what happens, people cut up any tree they can get their hands on to build at least some sort of shelter, even be it a "temporary one", as they wait several years for the governments and charities to build a more permanent home (and again, that is from experience as people i know who lost their house in 2013, only had the one built for them as part of the "relief effort", in 2019. and when i helped build one myself about 3 years after the super typhoon/earthquake, there were still thousands of people living in TENTS waiting for homes).

so i really can't say this comes as any surprise. again from experience, people will cut down trees in order to build somewhere to live. just as we did. starting with trees on the property that had been destroyed by the typhoon and earthquake. then other trees on their property. as well as similar cut lumber brought in from somewhere else. and this is how it was done. three guys rode in on A motorcycle, carrying their chainsaws, fuel, and oil. cut down the trees. then using the chainsaws, cut those trees into the lumber we needed, just as if we bought it from a store. and then they moved on to somewhere else to do the same.

now here is the thing. all that really needed to be done to stop this, is if appropriate and quick help was provided. and not just the standard, "we give lots of help for a few weeks, then almost stop once media coverage goes away", as well as 99% of the help only going to a few small, and heavily media covered areas, pretty much ignoring everywhere else. as pretty much always happens, in pretty much the entire world. and this goes for not just governments, but also non profit groups like Red Cross, and Habitat for Humanity.

then on top of that you have the mega WASTE OF MATERIALS, especially from groups like the Red Cross and Habitat for Humanity, as i personally saw. where they do stupid things like deliver the needed supplies, and then just leave it sitting outside for years to be destroyed by the elements, while the people endlessly wait for the promised house to be built. seriously bags of cement just left outside so it can be destroyed by rain, wood left to rot, and metal parts left on the ground to rust. why don't they just build the house themselves you ask? simple, two reasons. one they are told only the agencies are ALLOWED to build them. then on top of that they have designs and materials that the local people don't have the needed equipment and special tools needed to do so, as well as not knowing how those house designs are built.

all in all while help building houses is a good thing. they would get more done much faster if a lot of what they did was just bring in the materials needed to build houses the people know how to build, and let them build them. even pay, and perhaps even train people from the area to build the houses. which means you don't leave people stuck waiting, as "volunteers" go back home after a couple or so weeks once media coverage is gone.

as for things like using those forests to fuel cooking and heating fires, all they need to do is to provide cheap electricity (which means quickly building things like coal and gas electrical plants), and give them things like hotplates and heaters to use. many people in such situations can't afford electricity, or the appliances to use it, in good times, forget about when they have nothing, and likely no job.

so if people want to whine about this destruction to the forests, first they should remember all the needed help they could have given the people, as i just mentioned, so it wouldn't have happened.

a reply to: ElGoobero

A place of misery and injustice, blood soaked earth stained by the blood of innocent's whom were invaded, enslaved, raped and worked to death and then replaced by yet more suffering soul's.

The angry revolt and overthrow was also bloody and likely more innocent blood than not spilled the ground yet again.

SPAM

a reply to: ElGoobero

I remember reading the "Whole Earth catalog" It said it was strange how a country with no trees had no economy. Which makes sense, Plum trees Apple trees pears, Nut trees of all varieties. It is in reality the Bank of the Bush. Real things of beauty, not paper promises. If all spare land was planted in food-producing trees there would be no hunger. In the old days trees were coppiced, which managed a woodland. Charcol was made from the cuttings, and chairs were made from decent wood. Along with many other items, I always fancied that sort of life.It seems more rewarding and sustainable than the present one.

a reply to: generik

Yes, heat and shelter and cooking fuel are necessary, but it takes a lot of fire to produce coal, why can't they just burn the wood instead? It is what they have been taught I suppose. When people build a new house they tend to increase the size too, if they kept it the same size it would be less damaging to the forests. I would guess a lot of that wood is being sent to build more than people's homes too, rebuilding a rich person's mansion will take away as much wood as building a fifty people's homes.

I would guess that the majority of the lumber being harvested is not being used by the regular people there. Most of the people do not own sawmills to make the lumber and if they buy it from people who sell it, those people are probably gaining a lot of profit. I am basing what I know on how it is here in America, I really do not know how it is down there but do know that greed is a major problem in this world. I read about the locals in South America near the rainforest getting busted because the rainforest is getting harvested, those locals just take what they need, the vast majority of the harvested lumber from the increasing fields is being sent over to Asia to make furniture. The fields they are putting in is to grow crops to export to foreign countries, not to feed their own people so much. Big business is destroying the rainforest, not the locals looking for lumber to build their homes and cook their food there.

It happens in the states too... I have seen my neck of the woods destroyed by outsiders and commercial businesses.

When it comes to preserving our countryside, I start sounding like a globalist lol.

I believe we should have limits on how many people can live in rural areas. Limit how many trees one can cut down, limit commercial businesses, limit on houses being built... limit everything lol.

a reply to: rickymouse

Yes, heat and shelter and cooking fuel are necessary, but it takes a lot of fire to produce coal, why can't they just burn the wood instead?

the way i have seen people make coal, it doesn't really take much more wood to produce the coal. and they also will turn things like empty coconut shells into the coal as well. and i know when i have bought some (extremely cheap stuff), an awful lot of it seems to be coconut shell from the looks of it. and also from what i have seen, it is the scraps of wood, from cutting down and turning into usable lumber that is mainly used to make coal. and trust me, they do burn wood a lot of the time as well. then there is one little fact that is missing in talking about this. chances are most of those using wood or coal, have always used wood or coal. in other words it is nothing new or unusual. and while using wood pretty much requires an open fire, (even if inside a house on a sand table for cooking if they are lucky enough to have room). where they have small almost pot like braisers they use with coal that will hold a pot ot pan to cook on. and is in the end safer to use, even indoors, such as when it rains.

When people build a new house they tend to increase the size too, if they kept it the same size it would be less damaging to the forests.

personally based on the "homes" i have seen such people living in, i wouldn't begrudge them if they decided to make a bit bigger house. since when it comes to the poor in countries like this, many "homes" barely hold the family size wise while they sleep. in fact smaller than many small bedrooms in a North American house. and built with whatever they can afford and get their hands on. but even a tiny house can take a lot of wood to make, especially when that house is almost entirely made out of wood, and things like palm fronds (which actually when woven makes decent wall material).

I would guess that the majority of the lumber being harvested is not being used by the regular people there. Most of the people do not own sawmills to make the lumber and if they buy it from people who sell it, those people are probably gaining a lot of profit.

my guess is that while some likely does make it to the rich people. but most has been used by the poor. and yes the people doing the cutting, and turning it into lumber do make some money. i seriously doubt they are getting rich on it. more likely just earning a standard, poor person wage, and pay for their gas and such.

you also have a rather high opinion of what a "sawmill" actually is in a place like that. more than likely for them a "sawmill" is a couple or so guys with a chainsaw. i have personally watched them turn trees in a field where the trees were, cut them up into standard pieces of lumber, to use in construction, using no more than themselves and a chainsaw. it is actually incredible to watch as by hand and eye alone the guy cuts things like wall studs and other standard sized lumber from trees, leaving very little wasted wood. all while one or two guys hold the tree in place as it is being cut. and they are all just wearing sunglasses (eye protection, if that), shorts, t-#s and flipflops. and since it is such a small scale operation, it makes them much harder to catch if doing so illegally. even if they are seen by authorities, they can easily just take their equipment (the chainsaw, and gas), and take off. and while being small scale they can actually cut a fair number of trees in a day.

and while illegal lumber to be sold and exported is a huge problem in poorer countries, i don't think this is likely the case here. let me ask you something. your home has been destroyed. you are given a tent (if you are lucky), to live in. and then told if you are lucky, you will have a new house built for you, in perhaps 5 or 6 years. you have no real money. chances are if you have a job, you might earn enough to buy food. yet there is a forest rather close to you, full of trees that can make you a new home.what do you do?

a reply to: generik

I own an old chainsaw sawmill I got from a guy I used to know. I also got the chainsaw with a three foot bar with the mill. It is not fast, but it will do the job and I only paid two hundred fifty bucks for the whole thing, including the big chainsaw. The chainsaw is very old but runs pretty good. The reason I bought it was so I could turn a fallen tree into lumber instead of burning it in the kitchen wood cookstove, you can burn the branches yet and all the scraps. I try to take care of the trees on my property, some are pretty old, and I also went and cut the stubs off the trunks of the pine trees so they could heal so the bugs and disease would not destroy them. Some of the pine trees are two hundred years old, and one birch that died had a hundred twenty five rings I counted while the center was all hollow already...there must have been thirty rings that got destroyed in that inner hollow area.

I love nature, but burning a dead tree is not evil, I did have one tree I cut down that was dead and a flying squirrel had a nest in it, it was fall and his nest was all covered in a thick green moss that would have protected him in the cold winter. I felt really bad about that, I destroyed the home he had built and that moss didn't get there by accident, it was cultured, there was no moss on that tree, that moss grows on stumps, not in a hollow in a tree...it collected it and grew a bed. There was a sort of flap that could be drawn over the opening too, which I thought was cool. Humans are not the only smart animals on the planet.

let's remember 'coal' is a fossil fuel that must be mined. partly burned wood is 'charcoal', which is what most posters seem to be referring to.

www.usaid.gov...

only a fraction of the Island is on the electrical grid.

The fuel of choice for food preparation for the bulk of households in Haiti is wood, including charcoal. The annual consumption of wood products by Haitians is estimated at 4 million metric tons (MT), of which about one-third is transformed into charcoal to meet the cooking fuel needs of urban consumers. Apart from the negative environmental impact of cutting trees for fuel, cooking with firewood and charcoal exposes the populace, especially women and young children, to smoke and indoor air pollution.

is the UN doing anything at all for these people? the Clinton Foundation?

originally posted by: ElGoobero
let's remember 'coal' is a fossil fuel that must be mined. partly burned wood is 'charcoal', which is what most posters seem to be referring to.

www.usaid.gov...

only a fraction of the Island is on the electrical grid.

The fuel of choice for food preparation for the bulk of households in Haiti is wood, including charcoal. The annual consumption of wood products by Haitians is estimated at 4 million metric tons (MT), of which about one-third is transformed into charcoal to meet the cooking fuel needs of urban consumers. Apart from the negative environmental impact of cutting trees for fuel, cooking with firewood and charcoal exposes the populace, especially women and young children, to smoke and indoor air pollution.

is the UN doing anything at all for these people? the Clinton Foundation?

why would the UN be doing anything about it? this using wood and charcoal is used by millions of people in many, especially poorer countries around the world (and including places like China and India), for their cooking and heating, even lighting needs every day. just as they have been doing for pretty much the entire time of humans have had access to fire.

and a good chunk of the reason why so many use it is that IF electricity is even available to them, it and the things needed to use it, is far too expensive for them to have and use. in fact not only for so many people is a running light bulb an "expensive luxury". but some countries even have prepaid electricity, which works just like a prepaid cellphone, so that people can buy a little bit of electricity, say to use a light bulb, and when it runs out, if they can afford it, they can buy more. without the worry of the electric companies not being able to collect what is owed on bills. and also reduces the theft of electricity. a big enough problem that there is an actual surcharge to all electricity customers to help pay for stolen electricity. and whenever there is a news story about some poor soul electrocuting themselves to death, while stealing electricity, the comment section is full of people cheering the death, and wishing the same would happen to many others, since it is such a big problem. and the only way to fix the situation would be to provide cheap and easily AFFORDABLE electricity to everyone. and at this point the cheapest electrical production is things like coal and gas, but the price even of those fuels would need to come way down to even think of being able to provide cheap enough electricity for people to use.