masons and aa??

i have this friend who has been going to the aa meetings for the last 8 months (and it seems he's awfully dependent of the group) anyways i noticed that coins have alot of masonic symbols on them and it is kind of weird. does anyone else know about this and what do you think of it? i have a friend pam whose bro. was in it but is now a christian and he threw away all the coins because he figured out alot about aa that he felt was cultlike, ok let's hear your thoughts...

[edit on 29-3-2005 by vonwoolf appollonia]

Er...I'm not really sure what your point is. Your friend is going to AA and depends on his accountability partners in there, and there are masonic symbols on coins. I don't really understand how you tied these two seemingly seporate facts together.

Originally posted by vonwoolf appollonia
anyways i noticed that coins have alot of masonic symbols on them and it is kind of weird. does anyone else know about this and what do you think of it?

Masons borrowed heavily from other symbols of the time. So did the coin engravers and seal engravers. The US treasury has a good site about where the symbols came from and what they refer to.

he threw away all the coins because he figured out alot about aa that he felt was cultlike, ok let's hear your thoughts...

There are indeed things about AA that look very cutlish. They aren't a treatement that I would use if I had problems.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by vonwoolf appollonia
anyways i noticed that coins have alot of masonic symbols on them and it is kind of weird. does anyone else know about this and what do you think of it?

Masons borrowed heavily from other symbols of the time. So did the coin engravers and seal engravers. The US treasury has a good site about where the symbols came from and what they refer to.

he threw away all the coins because he figured out alot about aa that he felt was cultlike, ok let's hear your thoughts...

There are indeed things about AA that look very cutlish. They aren't a treatement that I would use if I had problems.

Freemasonry is a fraternity that goes back hundreds of years, AA less than a century. I don't see how masons could have borrowed symbols from AA...?? Is that what you meant?

Anyways, I have been to some AA meetings, and saw NOTHING there that would even seem like a connection to masonry. I don't know about any coins youve seen, I've never seen any. One thing is for sure: AA is a religious organization, and masonry, at times, tends to also be, so maybe the symbols you saw are merely religious?

As for AA being cultish, the organization itself is not but many of the members DO have that mentality. It has helped a lot of people, but it's not for everyone. I know many people who rely HEAVILY on their daily meetings, but I guess it's better than drinking. They do tend to condition attendees to their ideals, which I personally don't believe in. I went because I had to, but I would never go voluntarily.


[edit on 29-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

12-step programs serve a purpose for people suffering addictions, and aside from what happens at meetings there is strong mentorship and commitment to self-improvement other than in direct relation to the addiction, between meetings. Alcohol is one of several addictions treated through the same style of program. They work for some people who need them and their only similarity with a cult is that they engage people with a special interest in private meetings.

None of which has anything to do with Freemasonry? I have met just a few Freemasons who would benefit from an A.A. program or even an F.A. program, but the latter does not exist. The need comes up when the 'addict' type realizes things like the fact he missed his children growing up, that kind of thing.

This is a good professional source on AA:

p2001.health.org...

AA is a program of recovery based on spiritual principles. The founders borrowed heavily on their own faith and background in their christian faiths, but AA is not a religion. They practice and use 12 steps and 12 principles.
One of the cornerstones is that, 1 alcoholic could not stay sober only on his/her own power, but 2 or more who practised these principles and met regulary together could stay sober. This cornerstone is the act of giving of ones self to help another,'To Be Of Service To Another'. Pretty simple stuff and kind of a christian idea also.
Another more important foundation stone to continuos sobriety is a conscience contact with a higher power, God, for all intent and purposes.
There is alot of information on-line about all this stuff.
I been to a couple meetings over the years.
As far as the symbology used on 'Tokens', there are many different manufacturers of these items. Some do have some esoteric connotations to them, but this is a later development seperate from the "Program". Usually they are in reference to God, Service, Unity etc. .

I was "ordered" to go to AA meetings back in 1995. There is a cult like attitude in the AA/NA meetings, especially with the people that have been going for years and years. It was fun. There was the 13th step the spoke about, the 13th step is also called "hooking-up".

Sponsors!!! I hated my sponsor, he was a 70+ year old Mexican guy that whined about everything. The sponsor I wanted was an
EX-Marine (EX as in defrocked from glory), he was awesome.

Highlights from the NUMBEROUS AA meetings I went to in 1995.
Crying, lots of crying, men and women hooking-up near the coffee
"Hi, my name is Fred, and I am Alcoholic" in front of like nearly 1000 people is very overwhelming. I was fun, like an emotional rollercoaster ride.

I have been out of the scene for a decade now.

anyways i noticed that coins have alot of masonic symbols on them and it is kind of weird. does anyone else know about this and what do you think of it?

These coins, as far as I know, are to represent how long an individual has been sober - that's what mine are, anyway. The only "symbol" I see is the triangle, with "Unity, Service, Recovery" on it.

One thing is for sure: AA is a religious organization

Well, sebatwerk, as much as you whoop and holler about wishing people had the facts about Masonry, you should follow your own advice. Well, I take that back, you're sorta correct. However, A.A. is not religious - in that it has no dogma, no set God you are required to worship for membership. In fact, in the "Preamble," it is stated, "the only requirement for membership [in A.A.] is a desire to become sober." Rather, A.A. is spiritual - even Bill, the co-founder of A.A. says so in the "big book," Alcoholics Anonymous.

The founders borrowed heavily on their own faith and background in their christian faiths, but AA is not a religion. They practice and use 12 steps and 12 principles.

Right. We (A.A.'s - and yes, I'm an alcoholic) are asked to ask for help from/pray to/etc. "God as we understand him - thus, the definition or substance of "God" is open to an individual's interpretation. A.A. generally steers clear of agnosticism and atheism. For example, in my group, there are a few Christians, one Deist, and one Buddhist (me.) The whole purpose of A.A. is to help someone get sober. I knew it was only a matter of time before I saw a thread about A.A. being conspiracy-related popping up somewhere.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Alcohol is one of several addictions treated through the same style of program.

And Lord, are there a bunch of addictions. Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Porn Addicts Anonymous, Pedophiles Anonymous, Smokers Anonymous... etc.

They work for some people who need them and their only similarity with a cult is that they engage people with a special interest in private meetings.

And the reason they do so in private is to protect the idenity of the members - hence the term "Anonymous." There are many celebrities who are members of A.A. - some are known because they have broken their own anonymity; others are unknown, because they wish to be unknown as an alcoholic.

The only way I see A.A. being even remotely religious is their use of the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer:
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference."

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Both of these "prayers" have a purpose in Alcoholics Anonymous - and any "recovery" group, for that matter.

There was just something I never got about AA.

How come they can't turn you back into someone who drinks responsibly?

Is that too much to ask for? You must view your past habits as evil, and yourself as uncontrollable?

They have been trying that at some of the more upscale rehabilitation centers for years, like the Betty Ford Clinic and the Schick Centers. I believe there are a bunch high-end rehabs that cater to alot of the Hollywood crowd also. But the truth of the matter is that real addicts and alcoholics did not use and drink socially, and most probably never did from the start of their first drinking and using days.
The purpose of the program is to allow an individual to live clean and sober through the use of a program of spiritual principles. By maintaing a daily contact with a God of their understanding and associating with others in the form of meetings and doing different types of service in the fellowship, people get a daily reprieve from the disease of addiction.
There is alot of information out that can better explain this than I can.

Originally posted by akilles
There was just something I never got about AA.

How come they can't turn you back into someone who drinks responsibly?

Is that too much to ask for? You must view your past habits as evil, and yourself as uncontrollable?

The first step is to admit that you have no control over your drinking and you have to admit that you are powerless over alcohol.

First off if everyone is right about 13 and the occult. There would be 13 established steps to AA(I'm choosing to ignore that hooking up one).

And the Mason up there, he was odviously saying that the masons established AA or have some influence upon it(which is ridiculous). Many know that the Masonry(freemasonry whatever the heck you people call it) has been established for at leat the past couple of centuries. But I just love the fact that you love to slam down everyone putting forward things about the masonry. Are you the kind of all the masons? I think not so what the heck do you know. I'm sure that you know of other groups in the masonry higher than yours, and whose to say those arn't the bad ones controlling all you sheep. I just love how you masons either screw up the facts about peoples comments or just dissprove part of what there saying and ignore the whole thing. Maybe you guys should be going to AA!

Originally posted by djpaec
And the Mason up there, he was odviously saying that the masons established AA or have some influence upon it(which is ridiculous). Many know that the Masonry(freemasonry whatever the heck you people call it) has been established for at leat the past couple of centuries. But I just love the fact that you love to slam down everyone putting forward things about the masonry. Are you the kind of all the masons? I think not so what the heck do you know. I'm sure that you know of other groups in the masonry higher than yours, and whose to say those arn't the bad ones controlling all you sheep. I just love how you masons either screw up the facts about peoples comments or just dissprove part of what there saying and ignore the whole thing. Maybe you guys should be going to AA!

Actually, masonry is a FRATERNITY, therefore it has no Hirearchy and there are no "higher organizations" than any others. Everybody in the fraternity is an equal member and has all the same rights, same number of votes, etc etc as any other member, once they have been fully initiated as a 3rd degree Master Mason. Only lodge officers have any kind of authority, and they are elected into office for one-year terms.

What's more, there's several masons here who are members of just about every masonic body in existance in the USA, so I think we know pretty well what goes on. We've shown proof of this many times, waved it in front of anti-mason's (like Akilles' and MrNECROS') faces, and THEY are the ones that ignore it.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

These are the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous


[edit on 2-4-2005 by sharkman]

Originally posted by akilles
How come they can't turn you back into someone who drinks responsibly?

Is that too much to ask for? You must view your past habits as evil, and yourself as uncontrollable?

If you knew how to do that, akilles, you'd have more $$ than Bill Gates.

You can be in recovery from your addictions, but you are never cured. Be it food, chemical substances, alcohol or being on the computer.
I also believe addictions are more than mental/emotional addictions. I believe your brain is wired differently if you are an addict. (Of course, I am not saying the person is not responsible for their actions.)

Originally posted by Byrd
There are indeed things about AA that look very cutlish. They aren't a treatement that I would use if I had problems.

AA and it's spinoffs may look cultish to some. They are not programs for everyone, that's for sure. My personal opinion is they seem to subsititute one behavior for another, and are too much like group therapy. A lot of people in those meetings have lots of other issues and may not be the best choices to model your new sobriety.
There are some nice people, I will grant you that.
But, there are other ways to quit drinking.

But, if that is the only way to stay away from your "drug" of choice....

~~~~~
AA and masonry....the only remote connection I see is a belief in a Higher Power.

[edit on 2-4-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

WELL very interesting , I joined AA just a few weeks ago, I noticed the simbol of AA and freemason is pretty much the same logo, and I feel cultish in the group, you have to become a member and do the service etc. I'm very spiritual but not religious, I'm an emotional drinker and I wanted to check it out. so anywhere because I'm having dout about joining the group as member, I'm caring out my very own inverstigation......which leads me to this website.....interesting.........atleast now I know that I'm not crazy.

Originally posted by kamber

WELL very interesting , I joined AA just a few weeks ago, I noticed the simbol of AA and freemason is pretty much the same logo,

No, they're pretty much nothing alike.

Yeah, there are some links.

Reads thread

Oops ... my bad.

reply to post by vonwoolf appollonia


I went to AA for a while and it did help me stop drinking. I was out of control and it helped me get back to a reasonable place. I observed a few things during the 2 years or so I went.

There are truly caring people in the organization. Most of the folks have been directly helped by a member and are willing to do the same for you.

There is a very high religious tone. I did not find it spiritual, I found it distinctly Christian. I was uncomfortable with that aspect of it.

One of the key principals is that you have no control over your actions. Essentially give up and turn to God. I was really uncomfortable with that as I believe that you are in control and that stating you're not is a cop-out.

There is a cultish aspect. There are folks who go to two-three meetings a day. All of their friends are in AA. Some folks do not believe it is reasonable to be around any alcohol what so ever, hence they don't go to family parties or anything unless they are dry.

There are a lot of people who are in bad shape. In and out of prison, multiple addictions, kids taken away, suicide attempts. One of the things is that I found myself sitting there and thinking that while I was hitting the sauce a ton, I was a stud compared to these folks.

Also every chapter is different. If you are going and think it helps, keep going. There are a lot of meetings with different formats, mixes of people, etc. Don't just keep going back to the same one, check a few out a few times and go with the one that fits, or go to different ones for a variety. There are also a lot of folks who don't go every day, so even changing the day or time of the meeting you are going to may make for a different experience.

One thing thats been in this thread that I don't agree with is that if you go because you can't stop drinking, it does not mean that after a period of sobriety you can not become a responsible drinker. Sometimes people get into a negative cycle and abuse drugs/alcohol. Breaking the cycle may take some time, but for some folks it can be broken. Only you know if you have a true addiction or are in a cycle that needs to be broken. It takes a while for the cycle to develop and it can take a while to break it. It took me three years, but know I can drink casually and not drink for an extended period of time, no big deal. I don't think I would have been able to break it were it not for AA, despite the things I did not like about it.