11,000 Year old Shrine of the Serpent Gods discovered-Karahan Tepe

a reply to: primalfractal

Technically this perhaps could be considered civilization, they would have required a strong common ideology and hierarchy to maintain labour intensive projects over time. The core belief of the early Neolithic was selective reproduction, of domesticated animals, cultivated crops and of their own population groups, the event that would have caused this realization being selective reproduction itself, whether natural due to Genetic bottlenecks within the region at that time or involving outside intervention.

There is also the strong emphasis on alignment to the Heavens in terms of symbolic architecture which seems more important than the practical, this likely involves the conceptualization of the Galactic and Ecliptic planes and a fixing of Zodiac ages with a corresponding mythological narrative, in order to record extended periods of time and that in corrrelation to understanding extincttion level events such as the previous ice age that had affected their ancestors, the basis for all later Apocalyptic tradition.

Developments in technology such as Ceramics and Metallugy emerged gradually over time as a consequence of maintaining the relatively advanced group and core ideology, which can be related to the tradition of the sages and their oral tradition, as well as medicinal, culinary and brewing knowledge.

In terms of those sages Sumerian tradition maintained that the first were not human, the Ab-Gal which simply means Deep-Great, and it is also the case that for thousands of years following Gobekli Tepe it's achievements were not matched, that there is diffusion and continuity of what emerged there but not on the same scale or level of acomplishment, though technological advances are still being made, not until the Ubaid period does it all seem to come back together and early Ziggurats are constructed in Iran marking the begining of what is generally considered civilization and also generated the Dilmun mythos.



It's good that the Turks are doing these current excavations of twelve related sites because they stopped excavating at Gobekli Tepe before getting to the innermost and likely oldest and most accomplished circles for reasons best known to themselves, they always suggest a context in terms of how old they are compared to the Pyramids or Stonehenge, but also it should be noted this is 8,000 years before anyone thought to write the Bible making out this was maybe a bad thing.

It quite a leap to call this a "Shrine of the Serpent Gods" when the primary motif is phalluses.

Could just as easily call it a "Shrine of the Penises."

Harte

a reply to: Harte

There are functional pillars sometimes with anthropomorphic features and there are serpent motifs found at the site, there's also known anthropological evidence for mounds/shrines of elder serpent Gods across various cultures including Sumerian, they certainly connected the serpent to the phallus but were concerned with extended greater meaning, it wasn't just about being a dik as is the case with your post.

a reply to: Madrusa

Apkallu and Abgal are terms found in cuneiform inscriptions that in general mean either "wise" or "sage". In several contexts the Apkallu are seven demi-gods, sometimes described as part man and part fish, associated with human wisdom; these creatures are often referred to in scholarly literature as the Seven Apkallu and Abgal are terms found in cuneiform inscriptions that in general mean either "wise" or "sage". In several contexts the Apkallu are seven demi-gods, sometimes described as part man and part fish, associated with human wisdom; these creatures are often referred to in scholarly literature as the Seven Sages

Out of all the subsequent forms of the apkallu, the Nommo from the Dogon tribe of Mali has got to be the most interesting. There is such strong proof the sages were extraterrestrial they had to roll out Sagan to debunk it, which he did atrociously, it was laughable. Temple had evidence the tradition was older than recent anthropologists visits, also the Dogon do not have supervision.

The Dogon religious system derived from the Egyptian, they still use some Egyptian words in their rituals. They say the Nommo were ancestor beings called "the teachers", " the monitors", and "the masters of water", arriving from Sirius in a sky vessel accompanied by fire and thunder.

The key spiritual figures in the religion were the Nummo/Nommo twins. According to Ogotemmêli's description of them, the Nummo, whom he also referred to as the Serpent, were amphibians that were often compared to serpents, lizards, chameleons, and occasionally the mammals sloths (because of their being slow moving and having a shapeless neck). They were also described as fish capable of walking on land; while they were on land, the Nummo stood upright on their tails.

But this is the really wild bit...

Some elements of the Dogon mythology are reminiscent of ancient Egypt, including the prominence of Sirius in their traditions. Other aspects reveal an impressive knowledge of bits and pieces of modern astronomy.

For example, according to Griaule and Dieterlen, the Dogon believed that the Earth and other planets rotate on their axes and orbit the Sun, that Jupiter has four moons, and that Saturn has a ring around it.

If the Dogon astronomical/mythological story had stopped there, it would have been remarkable, but it probably would not have warranted a detailed critique by a media superstar such as Sagan.

The cause of all the commotion was the claim that the Dogon believed that Sirius has a dark, invisible companion with a 50-year orbit. The companion is very heavy and made of a special metal which is not found on Earth!

This is an accurate description of our knowledge of Sirius B, after it was observed with powerful telescopes, and described by scientists using the theories of quantum mechanics and relativity.

chandra.harvard.edu...

Brecher was racking his brains over these issues when he said: "The problem for us ... is how the Dogon could have known a host of astronomical facts, all of which are invisible to the unaided eye. In particular, how, could they have known about the existence of Sirius B? How could they have known of its incredible density? It elliptical orbit? Its 50-year period? They have no business knowing any of this."This was blurted-out by an eminent M.I.T. scientist

discover.hubpages.com...

From the great deep, pretty cool 😊

originally posted by: Madrusa
a reply to: Harte

There are functional pillars sometimes with anthropomorphic features and there are serpent motifs found at the site, there's also known anthropological evidence for mounds/shrines of elder serpent Gods across various cultures including Sumerian, they certainly connected the serpent to the phallus but were concerned with extended greater meaning, it wasn't just about being a dik as is the case with your post.

Other animal motifs (similar to those at Gobekli Tepe) are also present there.

As far as I can tell, only the fringe con men refer to this enclosure as a shrine of the "Serpent Gods." The professionals know better than to make such a leap.

Those are penises. The enclosure has more to do with penises than snakes.
If you can't handle the facts, that's your problem. Grow up.

Harte

a reply to: primalfractal

The Dogon stuff i always find sketchy because of the method of oral transmission and suggestion and lack of any actual historic evidence/artifacts, something even sketchier is a book claiming the Australian aboriginals built Gobekli Tepe but there is a good point about shared symbolism and their tradition could have common motifs which help to explain those of the early Neollithic.



The mysterious H symbol seen at Gobekli Tepe and found elsewhere particularly in Andean culture upon close inspection can be seen as two individuals joining hands in friendship similar to the Aboriginal explanation



a reply to: Harte

They may suggest that's how they interpret the evidence and indicate that is what they will refer to it as but none claim that as certain and they're entitled to their opinion and people can decide for themselves, you're not doing any different yet are being far more assertive and obnoxious.

It's what I do.
Here they call it denying ignorance, which is the motto of this forum.

Harte

a reply to: Madrusa

First of all, Eden is fictional, it never actually existed. Rational adults should know this much already.

Second of all, people are always giving labels to thousands of years of old things without knowing what they're REALLY looking at. Massive pyramids? Well, they must have been tombs, because pharaohs must've had big egoes, because we have big egoes. Case closed.

Pyramids were initiation chambers, and the shape serves an important, energy-practical purpose, but sure. Tombs because of egos. Sigh.

Snakes? Well, it must mean they are serpent gods. Case closed. It couldn't have been symbolic, like it was in old Egyptian hieroglyphs that used the symbol of KUNDALINI ENERGY (which is a snake) to warn, alert and depict extremely powerful and thus dangerous (but also useful) energies.

But sure, it's easier to believe the 'primitive people worshipped snakes, LOL'.

(Take a good look, this is one of those rare times I actually typed that particular acronym)

a reply to: Shoujikina

It did exist in Sumeria as the E-din region and there are other elements of the narrative drawn from Dilmun tradition, in the Bible the term is used in a mythological context but there was a basis in reality.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that the Pyramids were intended for Royal burial and none at all that they were designed to initiate people, that's not the subject of this thread but simply asserting outrageous claims is pointless and silly.

Serpents being understood in terms of Divine phenomena doesn't preclude their having a symbolic function it obviously indicates such and was fundamental to Egyptian Cosmology in terms of the Atum, Kundalini/'coiled snake' is a form of divine feminine energy (or Shakti), in Egypt that was Wadjet and the colour of her related energy was blue-green as per electricity, i think people who get over exited about kundalini require electric shock therapy to their genitals.

a reply to: Shoujikina

Person, everyone knows about kundalini serpent symbolism here, even Harte, although he prefers diks, that you'd come in yelling about it like you've had a divine revelation is amusing but retarded.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Eden was located in Iraq near Babylon between three rivers, Eurphrates, Tigris and another river, currently dried up and cannot be exactly located.

originally posted by: Granitebones
This place and Gobeckli Tepe could well be the Genesis (No pun intended) of the Eden and expulsion narrative.

I could swear the LEGEND was actually about FOUR rivers not just THREE, and as I recall the was some debate about being either where four rivers END (possibly implying Persian gulf/ Sumaria area) or possibly their headends START ( which might imply Turkey/Syria mountaineous area).

originally posted by: EnhancedInterrogator

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Eden was located in Iraq near Babylon between three rivers, Eurphrates, Tigris and another river, currently dried up and cannot be exactly located.

originally posted by: Granitebones
This place and Gobeckli Tepe could well be the Genesis (No pun intended) of the Eden and expulsion narrative.

I could swear the LEGEND was actually about FOUR rivers not just THREE, and as I recall the was some debate about being either where four rivers END (possibly implying Persian gulf/ Sumaria area) or possibly their headends START ( which might imply Turkey/Syria mountaineous area).

You swear correctly. www.biblegateway.com...
Although technically, it was five.

Harte

a reply to: DeathSlayer
The Genesis account suggests a location near the sources of Tigris and Euphrates, which implies the highlands of Turkey.
The expulsion story and the exile of Cain story both suggest that the story is being told by people who have moved out of the area.

a reply to: Madrusa

This topic has fascinated me for years, trying to work out where the original temple was, Armenia and Black Mountain was where I came to. "Göbekli Tepe:Genesis of the Gods" comes to the same conclusion, along with the sites in Turkey, but with a large amount of well sourced evidence, unlike me, well until now.

Interestingly, some accounts of the Duku mound speak of something called the Ancient City, which was believed to have been built right on top of it, underneath which was the Abzu.

This is the place the watchers decended, also where various traditions flood hero's landed, Edin, Eden etc, and the world Tree, or central mountain Meru, and Mt Sir before it got swiped.

Certainly the bibles a mish-mash, and Dilmun in Mesopotamia features heavily for Eden, but there is other relevant bits and pieces in it and other Hebrew books that point towards Armenia. They just supplanted a lot of these places onto their local landscape in order to fake being Gods chosen or whatever, the actual descriptions point elsewhere and to others.

So in summary we can say that the concept of the Duku—as handed down across the millennia, until it became a feature in the cosmological world of the Sumerians, Akkadians, and later Babylonians and Assyrians—most likely constituted an amalgam of sites that included Göbekli Tepe in the triangle d’or, and another now lost site in the vicinity of Bingöl Mountain in the Armenian Highlands.

While the Turkish archaeologists are definately doing a great job finding, excavating, and cataloguing these sites, the "experts" were undeniably the folk who built these places. They would have laughed at scientists trying to decode their symbolism without any connection to the deeper aspects of the tradition, then they may have used them for fertiliser.

The first thing that the Belgium-based scholar observed was that the name of El’s abode was g‘ r-ll, the “mountain of the night.” This is derived from the fact that its recesses were “toward the meeting place of the assembly” in the north where the sun never reaches, the Land of Darkness, as viewed from the perspective of the southerly placed Mesopotamian Plain, home of the Sumerians, Akkadians, and later Babylonians and Assyrians. Lipinski was able to draw parallels between the name of El’s abode and the Sumerian place of God known as kur-suh-ha, “the dark mountain,” as well as “the mountain of darkness” in the Jewish Talmud, which contains teachings and lore relating to the contents of the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament.

Mt Ararat features heavily in Christian ark research, likely a red herring and Bingöl Mountain fits better, its the source of the Tigris and Eurphates. Numerous rumours throughout the ages of antideluvian artifacts appearing, and a "cave of the 12 magi" or Adam, with some sort of text carved into it with hidden knowledge "from the times before" they used to consult.

This was also where, Lipinski realized, Alexander the Great must have come seeking immortality in “the land of darkness,”which was said to exist “in the north, beneath the Pole Star.”According to the story, Alexander reached “‘the way of the Armenians’ country, where is the source of the Euphrates and of the Tigris,’ [here] he entered the wonderland, traversed the land of darkness, proceeded up to the country of the blessed ones, where ‘the sun does not shine,’ and, without knowing it, he reached the spring of life,”

Both Gilgamesh and Enoch's journeys had very similar descriptions to Alexander's.

From this Lipsinki concluded that the entrance to the Land of Darkness, beyond which was the Mountain of God, was reached through “a gate of darkness, whose geographical origin is likely to be looked for in the tunnel at the source of the Western Tigris.” This, of course, was the Reverend Marmaduke Carver’s western corner of his proposed terrestrial Paradise, its eastern corner being Lake Van, with its apex in the mountain range that included Abus Mons; that is, Bingöl Mountain.

Yngvi and Gerd bought the Ynglings out of Anatolia and west, along with the myth of Yggdrasil, the world Tree, the Serpent and the Hawk.

Norse mythology, and perhaps even the roots of the Scandinavian people, are to be looked for in the region around Lake Van. World-renowned explorer Thor Heyerdahl (1914–2002) was working on these theories shortly before his death.

originally posted by: primalfractal
a reply to: Shoujikina

Person, everyone knows about kundalini serpent symbolism here, even Harte, although he prefers diks, that you'd come in yelling about it like you've had a divine revelation is amusing but retarded.

I wish you wouldn't use that term. Personal reasons.

Also, I'd dispute what was said about "KUNDALINI ENERGY!" (LOL) in reference to Egyptian writing. That concept dates to the 9th Century, Common Era.

So, "ignorant," not "retarded." Please.

Harte

a reply to: Madrusa

Love threads like this.

a reply to: Madrusa

I personally think Gobekli Tepe and related places are going to rewrite history as we know it. And, when I say "rewrite history", I'm talking about radical stuff like rewriting the Bible, the Torah and the Koran, possibly blowing organized religion out of the water. I also believe that the leaders of organized religion realize the significance of some of these finds and are actively working to discredit and obstruct further discoveries and revelations because they pose a massive threat to their continued existence (and more importantly, their continued prosperity).

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Its a nice thought but with 80% of the world still choosing to place there beliefs in organised religious practice i don't really see that happening anytime soon.

Organised religion is essentially all about control over the hearts and minds of the people, i don't imagine "they" get to keep that should the truth be presented as fact.

It really bites my ass to hear this "hunter gatherer" narrative still said. They definitely had agriculture down, animal husbandry, established homes in the immediate area along with massive worship temples. This is a lost civilization that breaks their narrative and they hate to admit it. I love to see them (academics) slowly eat Crowe over it!
a reply to: Asktheanimals

a reply to: DISRAELI

The True garden of Eden will never be found. It existed be fore the fall of man (Adam and Eve's expulsion from paradise), meaning it is in another dimension altogether. Man was once ethereal and not physical until the fall. Just saying.