Why do people believe Siddhartha Gautama became a "Buddha" / achieved enlightenment?

a reply to: dontneedaname

Does it matter what 'others' believe, or say ?

Shall 'other' tell us how we are ?

What if 'other' : is conscience influencing consciousness ?

What if everything, and everyone : are fulla-beans ?

What if Nothin is just another know-it-all-know-nothing fulla-beanser ?

Do you know the way to San-José ?

originally posted by: TonyBravada
a reply to: dontneedaname The energy these beings carry is just indescribable.

Unfortunately such energy is like a drug and often times even Anagamins mistake it as coming from oneself when it is the gate of nirvana they are feeling and experiencing the Arhat knows it isn't them; saying it is "the ground" is the best I can do as a direct pointing to those somewhat knowledgeable.

Of course all of that cluster greedy for that energy, delusional from that energy or hateful due to such a thing that takes attention of of them as an ego self is like bugs on a bumper.

When it isn't yours it wears off besides it's an extreme being in the middle of both samsara and nirvana there's no difference as many Zen masters have stated, eating is eating etc. nothing extraordinary about it... despite what people have "made" physically, vocally, and mentally about it.

Why were people attracted to Bom? He was practicing Sadhana outside of an Ashram seeing it too disruptive they made him an Ashram for practice a place for him to soapbox any realizations in addition to whatever branch it may be... the same as countless others have had.

However who says any of those paths need additions? Many enlightened from all of those various paths; and some not of any path at all. Credit goes to whatever perceived practice dominates... and such is the reason most abandon it altogether, so the question they need to put forth to themself is what was it? Ohso said he was meditating under a tree... anyone looking yeah people do that all the time... nothing special.

So what are they doing? Attached to some form... looking for some form to lead their forms to do what? Here sit under this tree.

Enlightenment is not a switch that is either on or off but a process that can occur over many lifetimes. People with higher presence can feel and even see higher energies in others. Ram Bomjon has already been checked out by such people. According to some ex female devotee's he is using tantric sexual practices to try increase his energies. Some of his devotee's have even gone missing so authorities are on his case. Persoanlly, I feel a darkness about him.

a reply to: glend

That thing called the visuddhimagga is where most of the darkness of Buddhism comes from in my experience as it often gets translated as "The path to purity." when it is anything but. As It is attributed to Buddhaghosa? It means it is his path and not Siddhartha Gautama's. Many people get distracted by the elements and colors and trying to manipulate them which can become countless lifetimes of hinderance.

Seeing the extraordinary in the ordinary only takes just sitting there... wrong path arises many more times than actual path, when one is on the actual path it gets even more difficult as those on the wrong path work alone separate and together as much as possible to distract one from it... being able to recognise it though? It doesn't make any sense that they once having recognized it? Practice it.

Thicket of views craving and desire for some position more comfortable in whatever heaven or hell than they are already in... that's all "Samsara" is as far as I have ever seen of it. Practice is like that too... as in it's easy to notice all of that but it is grasped as a self and one to beat up on like oh if it weren't for my legs or my thoughts... there's beings that see those legs as theirs there's beings saying yeah yeah yeah Im going to use those legs go get you drunk and fornicate with some random stranger for my pleasure then you'll go into church or temple and still think it was "you".

As sad as it sounds that's just how it is that some beings are so far along and advance that it has turned into abuse and control of others instead of a desire to liberate as one thinks oneself is... of course saying pick the path up pick yourself up you've fallen off somewhere should be enough. If that's all they got into a spiritual life for? Then it takes what people call great compassion to let that go as well, knowing it too is a temptation even among those not wanting that.

Saying Bom needed a girlfriend? Hogwash saying his sexual misconduct is just tantra? Hogwash... he let the demons of the path the more experienced and fallen off the path lead him off of it saying it was a better path.

Vipassana of a black heart is all he is gonna learn from that nonsense.. shamatha or calm abiding? Most important... given the climate and hubbub that has surrounded that fellow don't mistake it as him, but those leading him astray and making excuses for what they've wrongly had him do.

Don't let sitting disappear if that's the position you chose to meditate in... even afterwards if done properly it'll look like you just finished riding a horse for several hundred miles.

How does the saying go, 'there's a sucker born every minute'?

In India it's probably every second with the birthrate there. And the Western media loves to play those and tap into the market for eastern philosophy and eastern mysticism. Especially the entertainment media, providing further growth for that market in the West as they tickle their ears with what they want to hear and see, and that which makes these people feel good about themselves (including flattery and giving them the impression that they're so enlightened for taking this stuff seriously and believing that there is some spiritual enlightening merit to it).

“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

“So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.” (Ephesians 4:14)

“Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;” “We have much to say about him, and it is difficult to explain, because you have become dull in your hearing. For although by now* [Lit., “in view of the time.”] you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment* [Or “their perceptive powers.”] trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Col 2:8; Hebrews 5:11-14)

“However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.”(1 Timothy 4:1,2).

Knowledge (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)

...
Knowledge (gno'sis) is put in a very favorable light in the Christian Greek Scriptures. However, not all that men may call “knowledge” is to be sought, because philosophies and views exist that are “falsely called ‘knowledge.’” (1Ti 6:20) ...
... Thus Paul wrote about some who were learning (taking in knowledge) “yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge [...] of truth.” (2Ti 3:6, 7)

“... having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power and from these turn away. From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.” (2Ti 3:5-7) Eastern and New Age mysticism and philosophy is particularly popular among women in the West, they are particularly attracted and susceptible to its counterfeit spirituality and supposed enlightenment.

“Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called ‘knowledge.’ By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.

May the undeserved kindness be with you.” (1Ti 6:20,21)

...
How does God view the “wisdom” offered by human philosophy?

1 Cor. 1:19-25: “It is written: ‘I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual men I will shove aside.’ Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness [as it appears to the world] of what is preached to save those believing. . . . Because a foolish thing of God [as the world views it] is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God [as the world may see it] is stronger than men.” (Such a viewpoint on God’s part is certainly not arbitrary or unreasonable. He has provided in the Bible, the most widely circulated book in the world, a clear statement of his purpose. He has sent his witnesses to discuss it with all who will listen. How foolish for any creature to think that he has wisdom greater than that of God!)

Source: Philosophy (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

“Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Woe to those wise in their own eyes

And discreet in their own sight!” (Isaiah 5:20,21)

Flattery (Insight on the Scriptures)

The act of pleasing by artful commendation; adulation; false, insincere, or excessive praise. It is usually done to gratify the self-love or vanity of the one flattered and is therefore damaging to him. Its motive is to gain favor or material benefits from another, to create a feeling of obligation toward the flatterer or to bring glory to him. Often it is designed to lead the other person into a trap. (Pr 29:5) The use of flattery is not evidence of the wisdom from above; it is of this world, being characterized by selfishness, the making of partial distinctions, and hypocrisy. (Jas 3:17) Insincerity, lying, adulating or glorifying men, and playing on the vanity of others are all displeasing to God.​—2Co 1:12; Ga 1:10; Eph 4:25; Col 3:9; Re 21:8.

A contrast of the Christian course with that of flattery is found in the apostle’s words at 1 Thessalonians 2:3-6: “For the exhortation we give does not arise from error or from uncleanness or with deceit, but, just as we have been proved by God as fit to be entrusted with the good news, so we speak, as pleasing, not men, but God, who makes proof of our hearts. In fact, at no time have we turned up either with flattering speech, (just as you know) or with a false front for covetousness, God is witness! Neither have we been seeking glory from men, no, either from you or from others, though we could be an expensive burden as apostles of Christ.”

While the use of flattery may appear to be the gainful course, the Bible points out that “he that is reproving a man will afterward find more favor than he will that is flattering with his tongue.” (Pr 28:23) When a person employs flattery to gain advantage over another person, it is the opposite of love. A hater may resort to flattery but will eventually have his deceptiveness roll back on him like a stone.​—Pr 26:24-28.

Flattery employs smooth talk in order to beguile its victim. The expressions “flattery,” “smooth tongue (lip, or words)” (Ps 5:9; 12:2, 3; Da 11:32), “smoothness” (Pr 7:21; Da 11:34, ftn), and “double-faced” (Eze 12:24, ftn) are translations of the Hebrew root word cha·laqʹ or related words. In every Bible instance cited, the motive of the smooth talker is bad.

An example of the disastrous result of accepting flattery and the praise of men is Herod Agrippa I, who was flatteringly praised by the crowd as speaking with “a god’s voice.” Because he accepted the flattery and did not give the glory to God, he was struck by God’s angel and died. (Ac 12:21-23) On the other hand, Barnabas and Paul quickly prevented a crowd from deifying them. (Ac 14:11-15) Also, when a Jewish ruler attempted application of the flattering title “Good Teacher” to Jesus Christ, Jesus instantly corrected him, saying: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.”​—Lu 18:18, 19; compare Job 32:21, 22.

Also, this article series may provide some insight into why so many people fall for this stuff (are attracted to it):

Religion’s Future in View of Its Past (Series in Awake!)

In particular (regarding eastern mysticism and philosophy, or eastern religions) these parts:

Part 6—1513 B.C.E. Onward—Religious Best-Sellers (Awake!—1989)

...
Religions​—Judged by Their Books

In 1933 English philosopher Alfred Whitehead wrote: “No religion can be considered in abstraction from its followers.” Accordingly, on the basis of the kind of people it produces, a religion can be judged as true or false, good or bad. And, of course, the sacred scriptures it professes to follow​—to the extent that their teachings are applied—​has much to do with molding its believers into what they are.

Sacred scriptures should offer proper guidance. They should​—as the Bible expresses it—​be “beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,” assisting people to become “fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”​—2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

How do religious best-sellers measure up? To what extent, for example, have Hindu and Buddhist sacred writings equipped their readers to cope with life’s problems? To find out, we must turn to India, of which historian Durant says: “In no other country is religion so powerful, or so important.” In our April issues, two articles dealing with this fascinating subject will appear, the first entitled “Hinduism​—Your Name Is Tolerance.”

[Footnotes]

This article will discuss only the books themselves; future articles will discuss in more detail the religions that use them.

Part 7​—c. 1500 B.C.E. onward​—Hinduism—​Your Name Is Tolerance
Part 8: An Enlightenment That Promised Liberation (Buddhism)
Part 9​—551 B.C.E. onward​—The Oriental Search for the Right Way
Part 21​—1900 onward—​Skirts Splattered With Blood

...
Of course, religiously motivated wars are nothing new. But in contrast with the past when nations of different religions warred with one another, the 20th century has increasingly found nations of the same religion locked in bitter conflict. The god of nationalism has clearly been able to manipulate the gods of religion. Thus, during World War II, while Catholics and Protestants in Great Britain and the United States were killing Catholics and Protestants in Italy and Germany, Buddhists in Japan were doing the same to their Buddhist brothers in southeast Asia. [whereislogic: pfff, religion of peace my ass, and there's more to it, all the major Buddhist temples in Japan were in support of the war and the emperor, and just like the churches in Christendom in Europe and America, employing a whole lot of war propaganda to get people to kill others of the same religion. WW II is one of the better examples of the hypocrisy of false religion, and the fruits of their teachings on the behaviour of their adherents. A widely respected religious figure, Jesus Christ, indicated that false religion produces bad works, just as a “rotten tree produces worthless fruit.” (Matthew 7:15-17) In that same text he also said “By their fruits you will recognize them.”]

Nevertheless, in view of its own bloodstained clothing, Christendom cannot self-righteously shake its finger at others. By advocating, supporting, and at times electing imperfect human governments, professed Christians and non-Christians alike must share responsibility for the blood these governments have shed.

But what kind of religion would put government above God and offer its own members as political sacrifices on the altar of the god of war?

...

Part 22​—1900 onward—​False Religion​—Overtaken by Its Past!

Context for the video above in the playlist:

Real science, knowledge of realities compared to unverified philosophies and stories

a reply to: whereislogic

The Bible should be thought of as a book of exhortations; Of course people not wanting to be exhorted, only want or to desire to hear good things, at that end hearing one bad thing ...like a wild elephant it will over turn their entire cart.

In Eastern monasticism it is a rule in one of the Suttas to remain silent unless it is the dhamma(literary teachings). Perhaps not every abbot keeps such a rule but it is one.

The odd thing is; the more time spent in silent reflection, the more the "book of exhortations" makes sense almost to a point of redundancy.

If someone was being exhorted in such a manner as in those verses disturbing my meditations...I'd leave the community. Not caring who those people were.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: dontneedaname

Here is my problem with reincarnation.

The theory holds that when someone dies they return to this plane of existence in another body to work out there karmic debt.

However world population is on the rise, and has been that way for quite sometime.

If reincarnation where indeed the colour of our day then should there not be the same to similar number of people now as there was in generations past?

How many people have ever lived?

scorecard.prb.org...

2019 - 108,760,543,791

simplistic calculation - dividing by 8 billion (rounded up - worldometers, PRB uses 7.7, not sure why such a wide discrepancy) = 13.6

some souls have lived many more lives, some fewer.

Average - everyone has had 13.6 lives.

Reality - some have had many more, some have had less

one is not immediately reincarnated after death. It could be decades, possibly century+?

James Leininger is a famous story because his mom wrote a book, extensive media coverage.

thecinemaholic.com...

Born 1998, but died in 1945 prior life (Assuming no intermediate lives). 50 year gap.

"some souls have lived many more lives, some fewer."

That's why some people are "wiser" or "street smart," while others are not.

That's why some people are more trusting vs not.

That's why some are more "simple-minded" vs "complex-minded." [Not a value judgement, just an observation]

Think of "Beginner's luck" vs "jaded."

A newer soul (Less lives lived) might be more willing to try new things. Because they aren't as "jaded" as a soul who have lived more lives - but suffered more.

The reverse could also be true. Depends on each life experience.

Some folks are much "more capable" than others...because of past lives.

But just cuz one has had more lives, doesn't mean smarter, more capable, etc...it can also be a weight around one's shoulders / neck so to speak.

just saved some BELL CURVE images online and using it as approximation of souls vs # of lives. Graph peak might be offset, but it's a general idea. I deliberately chose a simpler bell curve.

X - axis = # of souls
Y - axis = # of lives

since fewer people lived thousands and thousands of years ago, there would be less souls who have lived many lives.

Most souls would cluster near the "simple average" of 13.6 lives lived. But some souls could have more than 2x to ~3x that amount. And some might only have 5 or 6 lives. Gonna guess there would be few to zero new souls at this stage of THE process.

How frequently is any particular soul reincarnated, well that depends on the parameters setup by our Creators. Which one would also need to think about - WHAT is the PURPOSE of reincarnation? One needs to zoom way out for that....

most people take a SELF-centered view of the after-life / reincarnation. "It's all about me"......but that's not the purpose at all....

a reply to: Crowfoot

I like your thinking Crowfoot. However, I do wonder if there is just one correct path for everyone. If reality was created to experience truth in sensations then Ram Bomjon will eventually experience emptiness in egoism. When he experiences emptiness in all things his "self" will no longer be an obstacle to enlightenment. I imagine those with more compassionate hearts have already experienced greater egoism. So Siddhartha Gautama's true middle path teachings (between dualities) might be more appropriate for those people.

I am not aware of visuddhimagga so have to take your word for it. I try to practice bodhicitta (great compassion) rather than aim to promote the self for the selfs sake. I have realized that mistake in my past. So fully comprehend the wisdom in your words.

Thank you.

originally posted by: glend
Enlightenment is not a switch that is either on or off but a process that can occur over many lifetimes. People with higher presence can feel and even see higher energies in others. Ram Bomjon has already been checked out by such people. According to some ex female devotee's he is using tantric sexual practices to try increase his energies. Some of his devotee's have even gone missing so authorities are on his case. Persoanlly, I feel a darkness about him.

Do you have 1st hand knowledge of the situation? I don't know what to say about the tantric sexual practices, but based on what he has said publicly and his actions, he has "lost his way." And really...he never was on the right way. Because you can't meditate your way out of suffering.

But he appeared for a reason...and I learned something from him.

His thinking comes across as naive, not aware of the larger world. He may be good at meditation / not eating...but that is insufficient for the complex world of today.

a reply to: dontneedaname

Its not one report but many over the years. When there is that much smoke there is generally a fire. So you need be aware of that potentiality. Someone that has "lost there way" can of cause change direction but if you examine someone like Khadro-la there is no contrast between good and evil in her. She radialtes light with her entire being.

So why does he appear in your mind. What excactly are you searching for out there. When everything you need is in you.

a reply to: glend

Being the vessel is the same as "empty your cup" great compassion really means shamatha when everyone wants that empty cup and still expect to remain full of themselves when that occurs... The Buddha's body is poison is what those having to say about it when he said he wasn't concerned with what they did with it after parinibbana. Why? It still gave off those vibrations that energy but no one could enter it(defile it) or ask it any further questions. Even further there is no cup full empty or anything for a monk... waking up with a robe and a bowl in an empty field might seems confusing but typically it means more practice.

What I noticed about the Egyptians? Their brahma vihara(god boats) move as slow as the black tortoise in the Tibetan plateau and are not concerned what it as a black indestructible diamond vehicle tears the hell out of in the slow procession. Be sure not to say such words like "hell" however and stare at a red point of focus to speed things up. Consider that a gift of Dhamma as you see it in teaching how you practice... if not familiar with Brahma Viharas of the bardos? Hell isn't being invited; it's being a one way trip is.

Not leaving "The Root" means the root teachings. That way all the sutras and shastras etc can be gone through on a case by case basis. It also eludes too your wanderings about one teaching as a correct path. In "god's" image well as ordained Buddhists how is the Keliasa and bowl not that? So getting into Anatman debates is not recommended. I've seen the patriarch of Zen naked twice with the bowl stuck on his head wanting to enter Han Shan worthy being skyclad just means practiced enough to withstand some cold hells and asana? Standing... when Sangha is playing sangha against as the Buddha's body or running from one monastery to the other seeking refuge? How is that not a monkey waiting to be skewered being stuck in five ways?

The worst hell I experienced? Had no name but it was announced in the sky as General T'Su it is every grain of sand fought apart that could be possibly seen as more than two less than one in meditation it is simply experienced as "All pervasive space". Tiendai is the branch or sect otherwise known as mind only or Madimakka... Going through that entire branch heavenly and hell? Shin is the result out of that gate.

Many times non buddhists get stuck in buddhist dogma like Manjushri did with other things not Buddhism and well both sides expect a Sammyuk to drag their asses out of there... I'm not joking all those "putting off enlightenment?" you're dead assholes come forth and help your lord Gautama by equalling him or be damned.

a reply to: dontneedaname

Reality - well some actual proof might be nice.

As to how many people have ever lived, we would need to know how long our race has existed in its present condition to devise that statistic more accurately.

Did Neanderthals, Denisovans, or even Homo Habilis have souls?

I find Buddha to be much more practical with his teachings, and less exuberant then Jesus Christ, though I'm nether a practitioner of both. Christianity does have its own rationale an soul, in the moral sense, but is partially blinded by it own works.

Buddha isn't declared a god ether, even though he is hella close with all his reverence in the orient. Both of them would have aligning views in a lot religious topics though themes are different, and would probably be best buddies if they met. Buddha more simply put, down to earth where as Jesus has to come back to earth.

Buddha gained enlightenment being tempted by Mara an his 3 daughter's, while Christ got whatever, after being lost in wild for a fort night, an had 3 different visits tempted by Satan. Also in aprocyahn an gnostic texts, Jesus beat 2 or 3 soliders as a baby, same with Buddha.

Where's the moral lesson in those two origin stories.

a reply to: Crowfoot

Yes dogma can take take many of a truer path, But when you boil it all down Crowfoot. Everything that can be witnessed is vibration. Everyone witnessing those vibrations are doing so from different perspectives. Witnessing their own truths. The same can also be said for the Anatman. Its very possible to experience the truth in the Buddha's words before enlightenment. To experience the interconnection in all things in wakefulness. In that intellect there is no me. There is no him or her. There is no God. The Anatman has no relevancy in the absolute.

So I no longer see truth in the percieved. Only in the eye of the perciever.

a reply to: glend

Any idea when the goal shifted from obtaining the realization of the deathless to NIrvana and enlightenment? The elders of the Thai forest tradition weren't too keen on the watering down of Zen into some hippy feel good trip by such people like Kerouac it really has given Buddhism a bad name like it is permissive of those sorts of things... in the instance of yeah sure buddy feel free to go to hell believing whatever you do but not one of them can blame the Gautama Buddha for it.

Those waves you speak of are like a temporal flux and not very stable. It's like phasing in and out of reality where one can't choose between form and formlessness or basically stuck in a dhyana/jhana where they can't really control it. MInd only chases the seventh consciousness(heart) around when that isn't twice liberated.

No one wants to really say it so I will; whomever brought opposites in where they didn't belong didn't do anyone any favors Hate has no opposite it is what it is nothing can change or cease hate there is only a durational link of intention before it arises again due to some attachment that hasn't been ferreted out or destroyed.

The concept of love has to be destroyed in the very same manner.

I don't turn a wheel I don't try to escape a wheel I sit there until it is utterly destroyed not dependent on causes not dependent on attachment. It is not infinite like taught with that stupid horoscope that has the stupid cock, pig, and snake in the middle of it.

I hear begging I see pleas and deals as said by all classes castes and races of beings I don't make them and I don't accept them enter the wheel I am in it will be destroyed.

I knew a cakravartin I know how they operate and they are something to despise when they enter a life they do not belong in... as they bring a whole host of unfixable with them thinking they can turn it anyway they want makes them a world ruler and those are so very very small its pitible. Tar trap after tar trap slave offer after slave offer not interested as said I destroy wheels I don't grease them.

a reply to: Proto88

Jesus christ was a doppelganger undoing all his twin brothers work. The European joke about showing his hands? "T'is but a flesh wound."

a reply to: Crowfoot
Enlightenment is the death of the illusion of separateness.

Are there separate waves in the ocean?
Or is the ocean waving?