The same piece of paper that Chamberlain shook after Munich

Hello ATS!

This thread made me write a constant comparison on our forum of Hitler and Stalin, and attempts to shift onto the USSR its responsibility for the rise of the 3rd Reich and the beginning of World War II.

Let's go back to the Munich Agreement of the Western Powers, which preceded the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.



Everyone knows the photo of the British premier Chamberlain, stunning with a piece of paper and the words: "I brought you peace!"

Chamberlain then shook the paper with a brief test of the Munich Agreement. There are many photographs from the negotiations of the leaders of Western European countries with Hitler and Mussolini.



Photo of Hitler. Mussolini, Chamberlain and Deladier.

By the way, if suddenly someone presents me with general photographs of Hitler and Mussolini with Stalin, I will be very grateful.

Here is the French full text of the Munich Agreement.






I give a complete translation of the Munich Agreement:


“According to the reached agreement in principle regarding the Sudetenland-German region, Germany, Great Britain, France and Italy agreed on the following conditions and methods of secession of the Sudetenland-German region, as well as the measures necessary for this. Each of the parties to this agreement declares himself responsible for taking the necessary measures for its implementation.

These activities are as follows:

1. The evacuation of the Sudetenland begins on October 1;

2. Great Britain, France and Italy agree that the evacuation of the area will be completed by October 10, and there will be no damage to the existing structures in the area. The Czechoslovak government is responsible for ensuring that no damage is done to existing structures;

3. Details of the evacuation will be established by an International Commission consisting of representatives from Germany, Great Britain, France. Italy and Czechoslovakia;

4. Occurring in stages, the occupation of areas in which the German population predominates by the German troops begins on October 1. The four zones indicated on the attached map will be occupied by German troops in the following order:

1) The zone designated by the Roman numeral I - on the first and second of October;

2) the zone designated by the Roman numeral II - on the second and third of October;

3) the zone designated by the Roman numeral III - the third, fourth and fifth of October;

4) the zone designated by the Roman numeral IV - the sixth and seventh of October.

The rest of the areas with a predominantly German population will be established by the aforementioned International Commission immediately and will be occupied by German forces until 10 October.

5. The International Commission referred to in paragraph three shall determine the areas in which the plebiscite is to be held. These areas will be occupied by international military units until the end of the plebiscite. The same International Commission should determine the procedure for holding a plebiscite, and the procedure for holding a plebiscite in the Saar region is taken as a basis. The International Commission must also set the date for the plebiscite. This day, however, must not be later than the end of November.

6. The final determination of the boundaries is entrusted to the International Commission. This International Commission is given the right to recommend to the four powers - Germany, Great Britain, France and Italy - in exceptional cases, individual (minor) deviations from the strictly ethnographic principle in those zones where the plebiscite is not held.

7. The right of option is envisaged for those wishing to move to areas departing from Czechoslovakia, as well as for those wishing to leave these areas. The option must be made within 6 months from the date of the conclusion of this contract.

Clarification of all the fundamental issues related to the option, as well as determining the procedure for carrying it out, is entrusted to the German-Czechoslovak Commission.

8. The Czechoslovak government, within 4 weeks from the date of the conclusion of this agreement, will release from military and police duties all Sudeten Germans who wish it. During the same period, the Czechoslovak government will release the Sudeten Germans imprisoned for political crimes. "

The agreement was signed by Hitler, Chamberlain, Daladier, Mussolini.

The following annexes are attached to the agreement:

"First, the heads of government of the four powers declare that if within the next three months the problem of the Polish and Hungarian minorities in Czechoslovakia is not resolved between the governments concerned by means of an agreement, then this problem will be the subject of discussion at the next meeting of the four heads of government of the four powers present here. ...

Second. The government of His Majesty the King of Great Britain and the French government have joined this agreement, bearing in mind that, in accordance with paragraph 6 of the Anglo-French agreement of September 19 on international guarantees of the new borders of the Czechoslovak state against unprovoked aggression, they have certain obligations. As soon as the question of the Polish and Hungarian minorities in Czechoslovakia is settled, Germany and Italy will provide Czechoslovakia with their guarantee.

Third. The heads of government of the four powers agree that the International Commission provided for by this agreement will be composed of the Secretary of State of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of the British, French and Italian ambassadors accredited in Berlin, and one representative appointed by the Czechoslovak government.

Fourth. All issues related to the transfer of the area are subject to the competence of the International Commission. "

The essence of the Munich Agreement. Hitler, inspired by the recent Anschluss of Austria, now claimed the Czech Sudetenland - a wide strip of land, in fact, an inner ring that strangled Czechoslovakia. Reason: the ancestors of 2.8 million ethnic Germans living in the Sudetenland made their way here during the medieval “Eastern colonization” - the first German “Drang nach Osten”.

The leaders of the "free world" (Great Britain and France) did not want to get involved so much that they gave Hitler all of Czechoslovakia. What Hitler did by occupying all of Czechoslovakia. By the way, Stalin officially offered military assistance to the President of Czechoslovakia Benes, especially since the Czechoslovak army at that time was the strongest in Europe. But Benes rejected Stalin's proposal and simply surrendered his country to the aggressor without a single shot. And for some reason, the Second World War did not start.

Comments from world politicians:

Winston Churchill, British parliamentarian: “... We were defeated without starting a war. A terrible verdict sounded to the western democracies: "You are weighed on the scales and found very light."

Edvard Beneš, President of Czechoslovakia: “This is a disaster for us, which we did not deserve. But we, of course, are not the last ones, it will affect others as well ”.

But Germany was not alone.

On October 2, 1938, Polish tanks entered the Czechoslovakian border region of Czechoslovakia (Zaolzie) with German permission. This moment:



Warsaw received 805 square kilometers of territory and the status of an ally of Nazi Germany. During the invasion, up to 100 citizens of Czechoslovakia were killed. Moreover, the Polish press then interpreted the events in Saolzie as a victory over ... the Russians. Over who else. So they wrote: "Poland showed Ivan his place" :-)))))

Does it remind you of anything now?

Hungary also excelled. She, being from that moment an ally of Nazi Germany, occupied the southern regions of Slovakia and Subcarpathian Rus with the cities of Uzhgorod, Mukachevo and Beregovo.


Miklos Horthy, Knight of Nagbanyai, His Grace Regent of the Kingdom of Hungary on November 11, 1938 enters the conquered Slovak city of Kosice

From the transcript of the Nuremberg Trials:

Question: "Would Germany attack Czechoslovakia in 1938 if the Western powers supported Prague?"

The chief of staff of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, answers: “Of course not. We weren't strong enough militarily. Munich's goal was to oust Russia from Europe, gain time and complete the armament of Germany. " Russia again? Funny!

Stalin, as you know. repeatedly offered the Western countries a military alliance against Hitler. But Western politicians preferred to surrender entire countries to the aggressor and placate him. only to direct Germany to the East and not to the West. Delegations of Western countries in Moscow openly sabotaged the negotiations, which forced Stalin. to maintain the security of their state, eventually conclude a non-aggression pact with Germany. This pact was the last one with whom Germany entered into such agreements. Similar agreements have already been concluded with all of Europe.

The so-called secret protocols to this pact have now been published, which fully expose the propaganda lies about this pact. In case of war, Poland was divided (for the umpteenth time) along the Curzon line. prime minister of Great Britain, that is, according to the British plan. Poland was part of the Russian Empire, and Stalin could not allow the Russian people on their land to fall under German occupation as a result of the German aggression in Poland.

As a result, it was Britain and France that guaranteed World War II. it was according to the plan of Britain that Poland was divided.
Personally, I would not equate Stalin with Hitler, but Chamberlain and Deladier with Hitler. It was they who pursued a single coordinated policy in Europe. Stalin only reacted to the situation.

You still have some doubts about that. who started World War II and who was allied with Hitler?

Thanks.

Being an American of a foreign war, I don't like to go to other continents to fight. But if just cause, then I'll rethink my awareness of going off to war is necessary.

a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

As one extremist (Stalin) discovered when he attempted to appease another extremist (Hitler).

The infamous Nazi-Soviet Pact. No amount of wriggling will excuse the Russians for their own huge contribution to the outbreak of the Second World War.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The Soviets were hoping with a pact like the Nazi-Soviet that Hitler/Nazis wouldn't start a war with them.
That went well didn't it?

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

As one extremist (Stalin) discovered when he attempted to appease another extremist (Hitler).

The infamous Nazi-Soviet Pact. No amount of wriggling will excuse the Russians for their own huge contribution to the outbreak of the Second World War.

Cheers

Please provide this plan and specific actions. Since I have cited the facts, it is the same.
Otherwise, your words are just another propaganda and fake.

originally posted by: HawkEyi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The Soviets were hoping with a pact like the Nazi-Soviet that Hitler/Nazis wouldn't start a war with them.
That went well didn't it?

The USSR secured its country after the West concluded agreements with the Nazis. Will you blame Stalin for this? Stupid. Having forgiven the USSR, the whole of Europe, the current European Union, fought together with Germany. everyone knows it.

originally posted by: HawkEyi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The Soviets were hoping with a pact like the Nazi-Soviet that Hitler/Nazis wouldn't start a war with them.
That went well didn't it?

It may have been a mixture of wishful thinking and policy intended to buy the USSR time to get more ready for the kind of war they had witnessed in the west in 1940.

The war[s] in the east during that period were utterly ruthless. Bad things done by many groups, even if on occasion outcomes took place that benefited groups of people.

Cheers

originally posted by: RussianTroll
By the way, if suddenly someone presents me with general photographs of Hitler and Mussolini with Stalin, I will be very grateful..

That cheap aside proves nothing in particular, except that Stalin did not like leaving Soviet territory and sent Molotov to do his dirty work in other countries.

Instead, I can offer you a picture of Stalin looking on while Molotov signs on his behalf.
A lot of symbolism there.

www.bbc.co.uk...

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

As one extremist (Stalin) discovered when he attempted to appease another extremist (Hitler).

The infamous Nazi-Soviet Pact. No amount of wriggling will excuse the Russians for their own huge contribution to the outbreak of the Second World War.

Cheers

Please provide this plan and specific actions. Since I have cited the facts, it is the same.
Otherwise, your words are just another propaganda and fake.

Don't try the state propaganda blast on me -- it won't work

The truth is that several states bear varying levels of responsibility for the outbreak of that war; and, for specific actions undertaken during that war.

Put bluntly, that topic is a huge sh*t sandwich that EVERYONE (Moscow included) has to take a massive bite of. I can only say, Bon Appetit.

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: HawkEyi
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

The Soviets were hoping with a pact like the Nazi-Soviet that Hitler/Nazis wouldn't start a war with them.
That went well didn't it?

It may have been a mixture of wishful thinking and policy intended to buy the USSR time to get more ready for the kind of war they had witnessed in the west in 1940.

The war[s] in the east during that period were utterly ruthless. Bad things done by many groups, even if on occasion outcomes took place that benefited groups of people.

Cheers

The agreements signed and presented by me leave no reason for the subjunctive mood. Recognize the alliance of the West with Hitler is a fact.
And the words "Possibly" are already subjective assumptions, not facts and historical documents.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: RussianTroll
By the way, if suddenly someone presents me with general photographs of Hitler and Mussolini with Stalin, I will be very grateful..

That cheap aside proves nothing in particular, except that Stalin did not like leaving Soviet territory and sent Molotov to do his dirty work in other countries.

Instead, I can offer you a picture of Stalin looking on while Lomotov signson.
A lot of symbolism there.

www.bbc.co.uk...

I am amused by your attitude to the document signed by your prime minister)))
Is that how you treat all your documents? I feel sorry for you)))

originally posted by: RussianTroll
By the way, if suddenly someone presents me with general photographs of Hitler and Mussolini with Stalin, I will be very grateful..

I was responding, as you know very well, to the disingenuous request in the sentence above.
That is what makes your reaction (quoted below) so nonsensical.

In other words, you were distorting the narrative by a dishonest representation of what I was doing, which is ironic because the lack of honesty in your original comment is precisely what I was pointing out.

Anyone who wants to present an historical argument needs to bear in mind the fact that blatant willingness to enegage in disonesty makes their argument less convincing. It desroys their credibility.

www.bbc.co.uk...

I am amused by your attitude to the document signed by your prime minister)))
Is that how you treat all your documents? I feel sorry for you)))

edit on 12-11-2021 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

As one extremist (Stalin) discovered when he attempted to appease another extremist (Hitler).

The infamous Nazi-Soviet Pact. No amount of wriggling will excuse the Russians for their own huge contribution to the outbreak of the Second World War.

Cheers

Please provide this plan and specific actions. Since I have cited the facts, it is the same.
Otherwise, your words are just another propaganda and fake.

Don't try the state propaganda blast on me -- it won't work

The truth is that several states bear varying levels of responsibility for the outbreak of that war; and, for specific actions undertaken during that war.

Put bluntly, that topic is a huge sh*t sandwich that EVERYONE (Moscow included) has to take a massive bite of. I can only say, Bon Appetit.

Cheers

To begin with, honestly admit your guilt, and do not shift it to Russia)))

And you bon appetit)))

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

As one extremist (Stalin) discovered when he attempted to appease another extremist (Hitler).

The infamous Nazi-Soviet Pact. No amount of wriggling will excuse the Russians for their own huge contribution to the outbreak of the Second World War.

Cheers

Please provide this plan and specific actions. Since I have cited the facts, it is the same.
Otherwise, your words are just another propaganda and fake.

Don't try the state propaganda blast on me -- it won't work

The truth is that several states bear varying levels of responsibility for the outbreak of that war; and, for specific actions undertaken during that war.

Put bluntly, that topic is a huge sh*t sandwich that EVERYONE (Moscow included) has to take a massive bite of. I can only say, Bon Appetit.

Cheers

To begin with, honestly admit your guilt, and do not shift it to Russia)))

And you bon appetit)))

Dear Comrade,

As it was YOU who opened this topic, I -insist- you go first.

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

Any attempt to appease fanatics, extremists, psychopaths and megalomaniacs will fail.

As one extremist (Stalin) discovered when he attempted to appease another extremist (Hitler).

The infamous Nazi-Soviet Pact. No amount of wriggling will excuse the Russians for their own huge contribution to the outbreak of the Second World War.

Cheers

Please provide this plan and specific actions. Since I have cited the facts, it is the same.
Otherwise, your words are just another propaganda and fake.

Don't try the state propaganda blast on me -- it won't work

The truth is that several states bear varying levels of responsibility for the outbreak of that war; and, for specific actions undertaken during that war.

Put bluntly, that topic is a huge sh*t sandwich that EVERYONE (Moscow included) has to take a massive bite of. I can only say, Bon Appetit.

Cheers

To begin with, honestly admit your guilt, and do not shift it to Russia)))

And you bon appetit)))

Dear Comrade,

As it was YOU who opened this topic, I -insist- you go first.

Cheers

First in what? In the fact that Russia returned its territories, which it lost after the 1917 revolution, seized by Poland and carried out the British plan along the Curzon line?

I have a positive attitude to The Miracle on the Vistula. I believe that then Trotsky and Tukhachevsky (a Jew and a Pole) wanted to carry out a world revolution with the hands and lives of the Russian people and went with the troops to the aid of the Bavarian Soviet Republic. The "Miracle on the Vistula" obscured this adventure. But what happened later was Poland's war crime: Poland seized Russian lands and killed 80,000 to 150,000 Russian prisoners of war in concentration camps.

If Poland does not agree with what Stalin did, then let him return the lands that Stalin gave to Poland after World War II. If the Poles are so principled, then let them return the lands they received. This is logical and fair.

PS. I'm not a tovarisch,))))

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: RussianTroll
By the way, if suddenly someone presents me with general photographs of Hitler and Mussolini with Stalin, I will be very grateful..

I was responding, as you know very well, to the disingenuous request in the sentence above.
That is what makes your reaction (quoted below) so nonsensical.

In other words, you were distorting the narrative by a dishonest representation of what I was doing, which is ironic because the lack of honesty in your original comment is precisely what I was pointing out.

Anyone who wants to present an historical argument needs to bear in mind the fact that blatant willingness to enegage in disonesty makes their argument less convincing. It desroys their credibility.

www.bbc.co.uk...

I am amused by your attitude to the document signed by your prime minister)))
Is that how you treat all your documents? I feel sorry for you)))

What you are doing is the usual method of trolling. First, you speculate for your opponent, attributing some thoughts to him, and then, declaring it real, you begin to draw conclusions from this. Not good. I am quite familiar with trolling techniques.

Do you think the document I submitted is a fake? Then provide proof of this - give, in your opinion, the "real" document. I'm waiting))))

edit on 12-11-2021 by RussianTroll because: (no reason given)

a reply to: DISRAELI

What you are doing is the usual method of trolling. First, you speculate for your opponent, attributing some thoughts to him, and then, declaring it real, you begin to draw conclusions from this. Not good. I am quite familiar with trolling techniques.

Do you think the document I submitted is a fake? Then provide proof of this - give, in your opinion, the "real" document. I'm waiting))))