The Edmund Fitzgerald in 1975

originally posted by: beyondknowledge
a reply to: Akragon

I gave it to about a minute in. That is horrible.

Gordon Lightfoot for the win.

One of the problems was a depth marked on the charts was marked on a contour line and looked deeper than it actually was. Thay still don’t know if it hit bottom on the 6 fathom shoal or not but it was very close to it.

I read a book by another boat captain that was on the lake that night.
His story was that the fitz was not built very well and it’s keel was loose and needed repair on several occasions.
He also said the captain pushed the boat too hard.

There was also the story of a former cook of the Fitzgerald red bergener.
He said the boat was junk too and refused to go on the last trip when the current cook was sick.
He was scared to sail with the captain.

I don’t have any proof but if I was forced to make a guess, the fitz just finally broke.

a reply to: Bluntone22

I guess there isn't the equivalent of the "FAA" for ships...in order to keep them safe?

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Did ya know...

Gordon Lightfoot changes Edmund Fitzgerald lyrics

Convinced by the evidence presented in an episode of the new Canadian made-for-TV documentary series Dive Detectives, airing on History Television Mar. 31, Gordon Lightfoot has changed the lyric of his 1976 hit, “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald”, to remove the implication that human error played a part in the 1975 Lake Superior shipping tragedy in which 29 lives were lost.
...
The traditional verse goes: “When supper time came the old cook came on deck /Saying ‘Fellows it’s too rough to feed ya’ /At 7 p.m. a main hatchway caved in /He said, ‘Fellas it's been good to know ya.”

Lightfoot’s lyrics have now been changed to: “When supper time came the old cook came on deck /Saying ‘Fellows it’s too rough to feed ya’ /At 7 p.m. it grew dark, it was then/He said, ‘Fellas it's been good to know ya’,” Lightfoot’s spokesperson said.

Tribute to the 29 Crewmen who died on the Edmund Fitzgerald:

a reply to: carewemust

Several actually

The coast guard.
The lake carriers association.
I think the sailors have a Union as well which deals with safety.


There was a story that the fitz would fail it’s inspection so the inspectors were treated to a nice dinner on the ship.

Wink wink

This is a video of the author m Anderson going through the soo locks one years ago.
That’s the boat that was following the fitz that night.

She does the master salute on the way through

a reply to: Bluntone22

Some things don't change. Though I doubt United and American and Delta airlines could get away with that.

a reply to: Bluntone22

The (ore carrier?) Arthur M. Anderson is 50 years old, and still in service? Wow.

P.S. Weatherman Tom Skilling (WGN-9 Chicago) just mentioned the Edmund Fitzgerald, and says a storm similar to the one in 1975, is forming this week on Lake Superior.

a reply to: strongfp

And while not the same day, but very close and I remember reading this in the paper as a kid, the original Smokey the Bear died on November 9, 1976.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Bluntone22

The (ore carrier?) Arthur M. Anderson is 50 years old, and still in service? Wow.

P.S. Weatherman Tom Skilling (WGN-9 Chicago) just mentioned the Edmund Fitzgerald, and says a storm similar to the one in 1975, is forming this week on Lake Superior.

The Anderson was launched in 1952…. So,what’s that? 69 years old?

en.wikipedia.org...

Those ships were built to last
Damn, my dad was in Korea fighting the year that boat was built.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Do you remember the title or author, or anything about that book??

a reply to: carewemust

Tom Skilling is still on WGN!?!?!?!
Wow!!!
When we got that station, we'd listen to his weather, even though it didn't help us with local weather, being east and north.
Still, weather systems march toward us form Chicago!!!

a reply to: EndtheMadnessNow

Cool story on the lyrics.
Interesting and probably the right thing to do.
The dead are the dead.


I wonder how many recordings use the changed lyrics.
This one uses the original
www.abovetopsecret.com...
As does the one I used in my OP
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I found myself wondering what happened,
and was perusing sources, when I saw this thread.

Despite that a submersible went for discovery,
there's a paucity of photos.
I watched about half of one expert documentation
while scrolling the roughly 100 comments.

There are some strong presentations as to various causes
of sinking. The comments are helpful to the presentation.
At the very bottom, although among the most recent of postings,
there were three excoriating remarks re video character,
of all things, and I believe these reproaches were warranted.

Then I glanced the like/dislike balance.
There were a good number of dislikes, maybe 15% dislikes.
Unusual for such a well presented well spoken and doubtless
sought out subject. It's because the guy is a glory grabber,
kind of, and injects certitudes where, in fact, there may be
obscurities as to precisely why the Fitzgerald perished, and how
it landed. Did he really have a plaque mounted on her?
With his name? I surmised as much from one comment,
but so far I haven't finished the 2nd half (I think 26 min total length).

It didn't help that the boat was listing early on.
Water's going to quickly seek a resting spot,
adding weight and perilous loss of balance
no chance for recovery.
36 foot waves, 3, were noted by trailing craft.

A demonstration of what happens to a loaded frame when lifted at ends,
by two mammoth waves of abrupt nature, forced down in hull by extra
tonnage above, like a knee snapping a stick, but from above.
Ore exploding out bottom. Game over.

Somewhere in the clip there was a claim made that they saw no
scraping on the bottom, so prior running aground was downplayed.
Former mates stated they boat was sick, enamel flaking along the tunnels.
It was said that securing the 96 ties per hatch was sometimes lax,
often requiring overtime. So they maybe didn't. Perfect sunny day.
Long story short, a combination of factors, but it was the wave that did it.

Did it go down in one piece?
Possibly the upper skin, hatches, were the last thing to separate.
Did it break in two on the water, or at the floor?
That is the question. The money shot.

The presentation I did halfway view is kind of grubby.
Good cop bad cop, with the theories, possible 'causes', but let's get to the determination.
It becomes aggressively dismissive of the culmination,
or inclusion, of possible causes, as to sell the main hit.
At one point, I believe, the Captain was specifically faulted,
blamed, as sole agent.

I might finish it just to see if there's really a plaque...and then 'dislike'.

In light of this weeks curbspeech development
(youtube pulls dislike function, but keeps dislike button)
Let's just say that I was moved
by reading the comments. To still be able to see the
dislikes was a distinct advantage in reaching assessment,
and balances morale.

Someone's collecting that dislike data. Someone's processing it.
But you aren't allowed to see the votes. It will quickly
paralyze on a subconscious level one's facility to discern,
and ultimately, subliminally induce a general hesitation
to disliking anything (if plan goes well)
thus yielding comment sections which will soon resemble
those sponsored small business reviews where everything is 5 stars
and glowing, and meaningless. Bad reviews will be hidden, at bottom
of list, or overrun with phony positives. 'Dislikes', hid from view,
will be politically categorized,
never seen by 'constituents', and ruthlessly mobilized
on a partisan world stage. By an AI set to do...what it's told to do.


These are all the marbles
and they're taking them away....technofascism.
More of their *yawn* Ideologies to follow.
There's really an unlimited number of genders, you know.
It used to be just a hundred.

See...imho, criticism is more
accurate than praise. The truthful words are more often found in the complaints,
from the dislikes. There's so much fluff and seesawing in the happy comments,
where it's all about wow, we're all here showing our theories...ain't it great?
But the dislike comments are laden with knife like incisiveness;
they give strong reasons for why they dispute something.
Not trying to be popular, just adding truth to the scale,
which weight might upset the official presented conclusions.

Everything's being vetted. Perhaps more than the words,
...each click, every star, report, flag, but especially stars.
Stars are very useful in algorithm. They even count the
number of times that you will click on a star,
click until it lights, before moving on. Why wouldn't it?
It tells the machine something which is then programmed to try to reduce
guesswork ( machine error). So we'll believe them, trust it.

Ever had ebay accuse you of outside selling based on some bad AI read?
I once pulled a $10 item because the buyer was acting nuts: will pick up, can you bring it,
what's your address, lol, then, after two hours back and forth with minutiae, will you send it?
Not even in person, can ebay corporation apologize, or retract an AI accusation.
They do have the personnel to resolve issues. That's not the point.
It's like they gain advantage when participants must scramble to stay afloat...

It didn't help the Fitzgerald to have water jumping down the hatches, at any rate.
The frame wasn't as strong as when built, and there were shortcuts taken, in the build.
I think it would have lived, ridden that wave, except for the water.
It's the little things. Always the little things.

# 1491

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: Bluntone22

Do you remember the title or author, or anything about that book??

The Night the Fitz Went Down by Hugh E. Bishop
This is a story about Dudley paquette and how he became a captain.

www.ebay.com...

I bought a used one for three or four dollars.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Bluntone22

I guess there isn't the equivalent of the "FAA" for ships...in order to keep them safe?

It's called the Coast Guard.

I remember the night she sank and Bill Bonds coming on with a special report. Here in Michigan, the Fitz is one of those things that we all remember where we were when we heard about it.

Back in 1996, someone around Port Huron claimed to dive on the wreck and saw bodies. I happened to be in Whitefish where the museum is - the founder was the first person to dive on the wreck - he also brought up the bell and takes the families to the site.

Well, I was a stringer for the AP at the time so I called and asked if they wanted me to get an interview. So, I head to the museum and talked to one of the staff and they took me to the super secret upstairs office where Tom Farnquist proceeded to lay into me about the story. I told him, hey I'm not the bad guy here, I want the real story. After a conversation and a phone call to the AP wherein he told them the whole story was garbage (not the word he used).

At any rate, he gave me the million dollar tour and let me touch the ship's bell before they put it on display. Emotionally, I'd like to attend one of the bell ringing services on 11/10 but it's a pretty emotional thing for me.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

A tragic story, well told by Gordon Lightfoot.

I was immediately drawn to this song as a kid and haunted by it ever since.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

The Fitz was headed to Great Lakes Steel (Zug Island) on the day she went down.

My father was the VP of Engineering at Great Lakes. Great Lakes was anxiously waiting on the Fitz because they needed the taconite she was hauling for steel production. I remember the day well.

If you ever get the chance, you should go to the Maritime Museum in Detroit on November 10 (if you haven't already). The Edmund Fitzgerald figures prominently in the museum anyway, but to go there on the anniversary of the sinking is a heart rendering experience. Very interesting place.

I'll get to more replies later, but I wanted to add this, which dwarfs the events that led to the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
www.youtube.com...


Remembering the November 1913 "White Hurricane"

“The Storm of 1913 was one of the deadliest maritime weather disasters in North American history,” said Meteorologist-in-Charge Richard Wagenmaker of NWS Detroit. “Doing a unique numerical model retrospective allows incredible insights, never before possible, into what happened to some of the largest and newest ships in the Great Lakes fleet during that storm 100 years ago.”

The simulation captured wind gusts over 80 mph and frequent waves to 36 feet on southern and western Lake Huron on the evening of November 9, 1913 — a six-hour period during which eight ships and 187 lives were lost.

en.wikipedia.org...

Winds exceeding hurricane force occurred over four of the Great Lakes for extended periods.[7] Wave heights observed during the storm were estimated by observation rather than measurement; observations of regular waves exceeding 35 ft (11 m) were corroborated by modern day simulations which estimate these at 38 ft (12 m).[7] Interaction between waves (such as those reflected from vertical shorelines) can nearly double wave heights;[9] observations of such waves during the storm estimated some as high as 50 ft (15 m), including the one that crushed the bridge of the Waldo.[15][16]

a reply to: Bluntone22

Thanks for that.
I'm going to try to get a copy.