Proof In The New Testament That People Of Other Faiths Can Be Saved

lapi7......lapi7............lapi7
Where are you? ............lapi7

Where did you go? I been waiting here for you. You did not anwser dbrandt's question. I know you've been on ATS, what happend?

To babloyi and Wren:
You are both wise men and seekers of Truth...All who earnstly seek will find!
I can not come online right now as my time is taken up writing and teaching, however, I will continue this disscussion soon.

To Balaams Donkey: Do not be so foolish as to believe that if a man does not speak he does not have an answer. Often times as a man grows older (and hopfully a bit wiser) he talks less and says more.

To JungleJake and Dbrandt: You quote the Holy Scriptures...that is good. You have learned your theology well, no doubt, as I did...through hundreds of sermons, much Bible study (Bible college), church attendence, Christian books and seminars, Christian audio and video tapes, etc...You know your theology well. You have been taught exactly which verses to quote to whomever and in whatever situation you are in (or in answer to whatever question may be asked) to back up what you've been taught all these years. I'm sure that you also know how to "witness" to "the unsaved" very well too.
However, I lovingly challange you to go deeper.
Having a map of the city is not the same as living in the city. You have gained a lot of knowledge by disecting and taking things apart as you have been taught. Knowledge comes by taking things apart, however, wisdom comes by putting things together. Dare to ask God if there is greater knowledge to obtain of Him and from Him outside of your present finite understanding and beyond the finite teachings of your church alone. Wise people dare to sometimes change their minds---fools, never. A wise man is not as certain of anything as a fool is of everything.
In Christ...With Love Towards ALL,
Lapi7

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

To Balaams Donkey: Do not be so foolish as to believe that if a man does not speak he does not have an answer. Often times as a man grows older (and hopfully a bit wiser) he talks less and says more.

Now, now, calling folks foolish...that is not nice, I just asked where you were, you said you have been busy, but I could see you have been on ATS. So I asked the question? Now you are calling me a fool? Hmmmm....you know you might feel real bad if you get shown up by a fool. Seems like you are a bit hard on the others also, calling them closed minded. I wonder if the Apostles ever changed their minds, and thought maybe their was more to life than the Gospels of Christ? Hmmmm.... makes you wonder....

Now we have all been waiting for you to make your case, I told you that I will accept your challenge, and you just ignore me.
So when ever you are ready, I'm here. Foolish, as I am.

Originally posted by dbrandt
No, a human does not know how to love unconditionaly without Christ and even then it's a life long work. I would probably go on to say that Christ is the only one who has loved unconditionaly, which would mean 24/7 in every circumstance. People are faced with many challenges and circumstances and emtions can go from one extreme to the other. I know myself that when one is faced with abuse from someone else even if it's only for a split second PERFECT LOVE is NOT THERE. It was absent for whatever period of time and then love for that person can return hopefully before sin has been done and we have returned the abuse.

Perfect love is a big deal and something only God has accomplished to this point. Perfect love is always there and always unaffected, I don't think a person is capable of having that constant every MOMENT of our life. If it's absent for a second then we don't have perfect love. I think this is a bigger deal than what you even think it is.

Within the hearts of all men is a perfect love. It is God's perfect love for all of us. It is this love that can shine like a beacon of light within us.

Our emotions create shadows in this light of love that could prevent us from feeling this love that is within, but it is always there. Always constant.

We all have emotions, sometimes these emotions are extreme. But unconditional love does not mean to not have emotions and never be angry. Emotions are natural things, they are given to us by God. To deny them, is to deny what we are. But to allow them to rule our actions is to deny what we should be. When faced with the abuse from another perfect love is still within, for it is then you need it the most. You must simply look beyond the shadow created by the emotions and that perfect love is there-- there for you to share.

To Balaams Donkey: No. I am not judging you, however I am making observations! And I like our Lord am not afraid to speak the Truth in Love. I wish to discuss...you wish to argue! I wish to learn...and you wish to proclaim what you already know! My tone and demeaner (up until now) has been loving...while your's has been smug and condesending..."where are you...lapi7" "hmmmm" "partner". I am looking for something to find which is positive...while you (like many so-called 'loving christians') are seeking anything negative that you may find and twist in my verbage to jump on! You are not seeking Truth but only wish to attempt to trap...like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. Is it any wonder why so many people dislike and hold in distain the so-called christians of today? We have indeed proven ourselves to be hateful, mean spirited, self righteous, arrogant, hypocrites. I am seeking to change that. It is my wish for people seeking Truth to seek Jesus Himself...NOT THE CHURCH! This obviously grates against the arrogant, self-righteous ego's of many so-called christians! If Jesus himself were on this end and you didn't know who it was you would continue to debate, argue and harshly challange! Yes! You are indeed A "FOOL". Now I know that a biting response such as this is joy and music to you. Your soul is dancing a jig and your bristling ego can't wait to respond! And I know that you do not have the internal dicipline to not respond to such a harsh rebuke from an elder and perhaps wiser person! (I have now given you foder for your next sophomoric reply "how dare you say that you are older and wiser than me...how do you know how old I am...etc...") I know you very well. YOU MUST DEFEND YOURSELF!!!! I 'll prove to you how well I know your kind. I CHALLANGE YOU TO NOT ANSWER THIS POST! I"LL BET THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO STOP YOURSELF!!! If you can stand to bear your feral ego and go without responding to this post or thread then I will consider myself the "FOOL" and do hereby make a public cliam to that title. However, if, as I am quite sure, you can not contain yourself and issue your caustic reply I will have considered my point proven! This challange is to BALAAMS DONKEY ONLY! No one else need to come to his rescue and chastise me in his place! Well? I DARE YOU NOT TO ANSWER AND PROVE ME A FOOL!

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

Let’s keep our focus on the thread topic and not resort to baiting and name calling.

Thanks…

lapi7

I am a Christian. I believe in all the fundamentals of the Christian faith. However, through study of the scriptures I believe that there is proof in the new testament that people of other faiths CAN INDEED be saved through Jesus Christ without going to church or without "being saved" the way Christians demand one must be saved or by reciting the "sinners prayer" (which, incidentally, isn't even mentioned by Christ nor is it in the Bible!). Does any one want to take the challenge?

Seems to me we you said "Does any one want to take the challenge?" You, are not asking a question in order to learn, but to fight. So I tell you that I am ready for you challenge, and you call me a fool.

Then you say I only wish to trap you, whereas you have asked for a fight, yet you hide, the basis for your claim. Like I said, you got something to say, speak your mind. So you are right that I have been baiting you, that is because you are hiding the woods, waiting to prove someone wrong, so my baiting is to get you to come out in to open. Your attack on me, shows exactly where you are coming from, thought I would get you in open.

By the way nice try, on the "don't responded, and I will be the fool" , that does not make any sense, plus an agreement, demands a response. Plus I am not interested in proving you a fool, I just want you to state your position, and basis for it.

Bottom line, you can believe whatever you want, no one can disagree with you on that. Now you asked, for a challenge to your belief, not conclusion, you have set us up, for bigotry. So, if you wish to have the logic as to how you came to that conclusion, examined go ahead. But, your opening statement is to bait someone into disagreement with you so you can attack them, now I saw that from the beginning, I think you response proves my point.

So, I have been telling you that I am ready for your challenge, over and over again. When ever you are ready. Now, who came to fight?


Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


[edit on 5-4-2005 by Balaams donkey]

I rest my case!
But since you seem up to the challange...yes or no...can people of other faiths "love" in the context that Jesus Himself "commanded'" us to love one another (John13:34)...Please, a simple YES or NO.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

@ Balaams donkey,

I'll ask questions for the sake of learning. The answers you give need not be one word answers, though all can be answered as such.

Does God love both sinners and saints; both believers and non-believers?

Will we all-- sinners, saints, believer and non-believer-- stand before the judgment seat of God?

Who sits upon the judgment seat of God?

More questions to follow pending the replies to these.

That's better, still a trap, so let see if I can unwind it a bit?
Using the King James version as a basis for discussion. So we do not get tied up in knots.

can people of other faiths "love" in the context that Jesus Himself "commanded'" us to love one another (John13:34)...Please, a simple YES or NO

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jesus states he is the way, the life, and light of men, meaning the source.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So, in view of all of this as a small beginning, that Love comes from God, therefore those who reject God also reject the source of Love, therefore in the context of Love, meaning Godly love it would seem impossible for those who reject it, at the same time possesses it.

Also note in the verse you have used, that he is talking to his children, not everyone, and secondly he say love one another as I have loved you, so we see that His love must come first, before we are capable of Godly love.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Now when you say other faiths, you must mean those who reject the Christian faith, therefore God. So in this context, No.

Please show how you see this is in error. Calling me a fool is not logic.

"Now when you say other faiths, you must mean those who reject the Christian faith, therefore God. So in this context, No."


So am I to understand that when Jesus said in Mt.24 "...as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, ye have don it unto me." He was talking ONLY about what Christians or non-believers do to other Christians? And, as you have pointed out in John 13 that the command to "love one another as I have loved you." He meant that only to apply to Christians? And in 1 Jn. 4:7 when we are told that God is love "...and EVERY ONE that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." The "EVERY ONE's" that John is referring to are only Christians?
Just another thought: Do you believe that when Christ uttered "It is finished" and the veil in the Temple was rent from top to bottom...that on that specific day where all across the world from Asia to the North and South American continets thousands upon thousands of people died hours after Christ did on that same day...they are all screaming and writhing in burning sulfer hell fire for all eternity because they didn't "accept Christ" who just hours ago finished the Supreme sacrifice? What happened to them? (Sorry to interject another question...I'm just wondering.)
The bottom line is that based on your interpretation of the Scriptures you provided ALL human beings of ALL other faiths have indeed totally rejected God and Love...is that correct?


[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

Originally posted by Ballams Donkey
"Now when you say other faiths, you must mean those who reject the Christian faith, therefore God. So in this context, No."

So am I to understand that when Jesus said in Mt.24 "...as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, ye have don it unto me." He was talking ONLY about what Christians or non-believers do to other Christians? And, as you have pointed out in John 13 that the command to "love one another as I have loved you." He meant that only to apply to Christians? And in 1 Jn. 4:7 when we are told that God is love "...and EVERY ONE that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." The "EVERY ONE's" that John is referring to are only Christians?
Just another thought: Do you believe that when Christ uttered "It is finished" and the veil in the Temple was rent from top to bottom...that on that specific day where all across the world from Asia to the North and South American continents thousands upon thousands of people died hours after Christ did on that same day...they are all screaming and writhing in burning sulfer hell fire for all eternity because they didn't "accept Christ" who just hours ago finished the Supreme sacrifice? What happened to them? (Sorry to interject another question...I'm just wondering.)
The bottom line is that based on your interpretation of the Scriptures you provided ALL human beings of ALL other faiths have indeed totally rejected God and Love...is that correct?


[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

Sorry, just one more question...thank you for your patience. Based on Catholic theology which I assume Pope John Paul II belived in (along with the Blessed virgin being the Co-Redeemer of Christ) In your OPINION is he "saved" or has he gone to hell? Just wondering!

Originally posted by lapi7
I rest my case!
But since you seem up to the challange...yes or no...can people of other faiths "love" in the context that Jesus Himself "commanded'" us to love one another (John13:34)...Please, a simple YES or NO.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

Hi Lapi7,
You would probably prefer an answer from a scholar but now you are recieving it from me I have been reading this thread and I am amazed how you guys get all worked up about such a simple question.
Yes, Yes, Yes, Mathew 7, 21-23
WrenLittle

[edit on 5-4-2005 by Wren]

Originally posted by lapi7
To Dbrandt: . Dare to ask God if there is greater knowledge to obtain of Him and from Him outside of your present finite understanding and beyond the finite teachings of your church alone.
[edit on 5-4-2005 by lapi7]

I certainly hope that when we converse I have been civil to you, I have certainly tried to present the other side of your point with grace.

I actually do ask God what to do and what is right. I am learning things (and doing things) I didn't think I would be doing. You'll have to take my word for it but I go to a church that teaches the truth based on the Bible. Everyday I grow a little bit closer to Him and I KNOW(emphasis only) this. I can't compromise on salvation based on anything other than acceptance of Christ alone or I would not be being faithful.

I wish I had a perfect answer for those who have never heard of Christ. The only answer I can give is God says the evidence that He exists is displayed in creation and they are without excuse.

God is the judge of who enters heaven and who doesn't. He won't make any mistakes. He can be trusted. We can't compromise the truth so we will feel better.

Don't we all recall the tale of wise king Salomon? ( Darn, can't find the verse).
Isn't that what this is all about? Loving unconditionly? Wisdom from our hearts (wisdom)and not our brains(knowlegde).
But this is a wholesome discussion, important.
Don't fight Guys life is way to short for that. I know!!!
Life Bless
WrenLittle

To Wren and Dbrandt,
Thank you both for your wonderful loving insights. You have both been more than civil towards me and your kindness shows. I agree with you Dbrant that indeed we can not seperate Christ from the salvation experience. My only question is in the actual "accepting" of Christ. Many verses do indeed seem to speak of a singular way of "believing" or "accepting" Christ. While others seem to acknolwdege that "all who love" are born of God. And even Jesus' criteria for salvation was based on how much we love others! Even though I believe the Bible to be God's inspired Word I have gained much insight through the secular, but I believe, Spirit led writtings of those whom I consider to be great men of God. (Watchman Nee is only one of them, but there are many others.) As the apostle says in 1 Cor. 13 ...we all know only in part now, but we will know it all when we are on the other side with God. (My paraphrasing) God Bless you guys!!! And let it be our prayer that God bless and reach every person on the earth with His Love!!

Hi Lapi7,
Before I retire I will qoute a very wise person from Denmark
"Love,
and yet another stone
will fall
from the heart of God"
Gunnar Iversen,1997

Lapi7

Jonah 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

I will not answer all of your questions, as you are asking me to explain the world, and yet you did not seem to take me last post very seriously. I am a mere man, not capable of good thoughts with out God, I do not know the day of my birth nor the day of my death. I rise in the morning because of the blessing of God. The food at my table is because of God’s love for man. That food was their when I was against God and when I have been for Him.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Who am I to question God’s ways? We are all creatures of God. The Lord who is the source of Love, must be saddened at every sin man commits as they bring death. He came to earth to save us from ourselves and we murdered Him who was innocent, if God had the least bit of rage that man has, I should guess the Earth and man would be no more, for our crimes.
Now I will not question the Lord in his ways, as did Adam, for he has said:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Now if the Lord himself has said these things so clearly, who am I to question Him? I would think the duty of a Christian would be to spread the Gospel so men could find salvation.

Now you have asked me what about all of those in other lands, who knows, where can a man learn about this? What God does outside of His teachings is God business not mine, if he wanted me or you to know he would have told us.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Can you tell me why I should think differently? For I am a foolish and simple man.

Can you tell me why I should think differently? For I am a foolish and simple man.


I can tell you nothing save that you are loved! And that in my OPINION we Christians may be in for quite a surprize when it comes to those who enter the Heaveanly Kingdom. And those whom we would never expect to have had their sins washed away through the precious Blood of Christ.

As far as being a "foolosh and simple man" welcome to the brotherhood of us all! God Bless Dear friend!