College Debt What I've always suspected

www.tmj4.com... W-rVg91V-f7pl2gSN3ZkM857N932RmwuY

Fewer students are applying for financial aid and government loans. It is called FAFSA, which stands for Free Application for Federal Student Aid.

“The federal loans are at a much lower interest rate than a private loan would be. Even right now students are all automatically put into deferment so they are able to focus on surviving the pandemic,” said Pamela Lowrey, Director of Financial Aid at Gateway Technical College.

Ewww, something about that "surviving the pandemic" part rings so wrong to me. Anyone with two brain cells knows that getting into massive debt during times of uncertantity probably isn't smart.

Here's what i've suspected and I think i'm right. I think the government gave these crazy loans knowing many of those students, (probably student that have the lowest chance of success) would NEVER be able to pay them off in decent time and would never even have a chance of getting a degree, so they are basically debt slaves for almost life. I think this is the same thing as giving out credit cards to people that really don't have enough income.

The kids that don't need loans are probably the ones that will also do the best outside of college because they have the financial and family support to pretty much go for their dreams, take risks, have connections. Of course there will be some lucky or unlucky exceptions.

www.brookings.edu...

The moment they earn their bachelor’s degrees, black college graduates owe $7,400 more on average than their white peers ($23,400 versus $16,000, including non-borrowers in the averages). But over the next few years, the black-white debt gap more than triples to a whopping $25,000. Differences in interest accrual and graduate school borrowing lead to black graduates holding nearly $53,000 in student loan debt four years after graduation—almost twice as much as their white counterparts. While previous work has documented racial disparities in student borrowing, delinquencies, and defaults, in this report we provide new evidence that racial gaps in total debt are far larger than even recent reports have recognized, far larger now than in the past, and correlated with troubling trends in the economy and in the for-profit sector. We conclude with a discussion of policy implications.

This article wants to break it down by race. We need to ignore that. It isn't about race, it's about economic status.
They even say so later in the article

Unfortunately, because the U.S. Department of Education does not regularly track borrowers by race, data limitations have hampered efforts to connect research on racial gaps with detailed new studies of debt and default patterns.

college degrees are a rip-off
go to a trade school / find an apprenticeship

Apprenticeship first.

Because someone being in school, college and then university might know lot's of stuff but the life experience is missing. Many leave the school system after doing their grades with very little real life experience on so many levels. It's much easier to grasp something if they had worked with it before.

Imaging sitting in class and wondering wtf a drill is. Bad example I know.

Yes they can explain how an engine works to me to the atomic level, but put them before a machine or tell them to assemble it, they take like 3 weeks for a block it feels. I partnered with a college that does practice runs with their students in companies and had one during summer for a month, so four people rotated through my shop. Each week one.

Good persons, smart person, but not working material. Better suited at a desk or moving paper and theorizing but 28 and no idea about life outside school / campus. Easy offended and so easy to bring out of concept. If it does not look or sound like they learned it, they start to question small details that are unimportant.

Like inspecting a crankshaft and philosophing about "weakening hardness" in parts because of discoloration and other funny things. Dude the thing is hardened and that's why it is discolorated out of the package.

Not all of course, those that come from families with workers are different it seems. They got their hands dirty before, can take a bit of heat / truth and don't tear up after a joke.

I must be a horrible savage person in their eyes.

originally posted by: acackohfcc
college degrees are a rip-off
go to a trade school / find an apprenticeship

I think that's the wrong answer, but the one they want people to say.

I do think some degrees are very much worth it, even some liberal arts degrees.
I don't think it is so much the degree as much as it is the person getting the degree.

The problem we have is that we've told everyone you can't be successful without a degree and that is wrong.
The opposite is wrong too, not everyone can be in a trade. We need more balance. Some of this needs to start with job requirements. You should not need a college degree for many jobs that require them.

Back to that balance and not everyone should go to college. In many countries this is worked out during the high school years, and not just with an ACT/SAT. There isn't a nice way to put it, but if you are a dummy, don't think about going to college to be an accountant. If you are mathmatically gifted you'll get ushered in and your college won't cost a fortune and often will be covered. This is how it should be.

a reply to: acackohfcc

Better yet drop out in 8th grade and get a site on a Scallop Boat out of New Bedford Ma. and make upwards of $250K a year if you are driven to work all 12 months.
Work hard and become a Captain and you can make better than $500K a year if you put the days at sea in.
No diploma’s needed to start…

PS, kidding about the drop out thing…

PSS, Think this job or the $$$ is a joke though?

Check it, no reason to rack up huge student loans……!

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: PiratesCut
a reply to: acackohfcc

Better yet drop out in 8th grade and get a site on a Scallop Boat out of New Bedford Ma. and make upwards of $250K a year if you are driven to work all 12 months.
Work hard and become a Captain and you can make better than $500K a year if you put the days at sea in.
No diploma’s needed to start…

PS, kidding about the drop out thing…

The problem is most kids don't know what they want to be. You are fortunate that you figured that out at birth

a reply to: JAGStorm

Just think of all the social security you get to pay after you find work!

Make the suckers pay it all back. 1997 I went to college for an Associate's Degree. Filled out the paperwork and got a grant for most of it and borrowed for the rest ($6000). Graduated in May of 1999. December of 1999 I started paying off my loan. I was required to pay a minimum of $75 per month, so I paid $125 per month. Come 2000, I don't get my income tax refund ($1400). When I asked the IRS, I'm told it was applied to my loans. I kept paying through 2002 and each year my refund was taken as well. By this time I'd paid off way more than what I owed, so I stopped paying the monthly payment. I figured that they would get in touch with me and I could have them review everything and get it straightened out. Nope. They started taking it out of my paycheck. Finally in 2006 I got ahold of the right person and they reviewed my loan. When they added everything up they owed me $10,000. I got that with interest, a letter to my employer admitting their mistake and a change to my credit report.

originally posted by: PiratesCut
a reply to: acackohfcc

Better yet drop out in 8th grade and get a site on a Scallop Boat out of New Bedford Ma. and make upwards of $250K a year if you are driven to work all 12 months.
Work hard and become a Captain and you can make better than $500K a year if you put the days at sea in.
No diploma’s needed to start…

PS, kidding about the drop out thing…

Heh, I was reading an article not too long ago (damned if I can't find it anymore) that showed a college grad today is only slated to make about $60,000 more over their entire working career, than their non-college papered peers.

That says something incredibly important than no one wants to hear -- college is not as valuable as advertised anymore.

Study your degree program through free source material online.

Write your thesis and sumbit it for review for an Honorary Degree.

Boom.

a reply to: Nyiah

I think the "shine" of just having a college degree has worn off. When I was a manager and received applications of prospective employees it was amazing at how many of them had degrees such as Geography, World Studies, English etc with no Graduate school completed. What is someone going to do with a Geography or World Studies degree without pursuing a graduate degree? When I asked one of them this question they thought that as long as they got a degree it would help them get better pay even if it was in a field that was unrelated. Meanwhile they had boat loads of loans, still lived at home, and were having issues finding a job because they had no skills or specialized education.

One issue, at least when I was growing up, is various trade schools had a stigma put on them like they were for "losers" or people that were not smart and couldn't make it in regular college. In reality the trade school graduates make really good money starting out, have lifelong skills, and minimal if any school loans.

My daughter is currently enrolled in a small private college and is majoring in Finance and Economics. So far she has been really happy with her education and fortunately the track record of her school for placing graduates is very high. My son, who is a freshman in HS, has no desire to go to a college and is looking at trade schools they whole way and I support him 100%. If my daughter was in a different field of study I would be more apprehensive with her but I am not sure she would get the needed experience in an associates program for her direction but maybe I am wrong.

If I had to do my schooling over again I would have went to trade school and learned a life skill and have more flexibility.

It is a balance. I certainly support going to college. I was first to go to college in my family. I also have an MBA from one of best schools in the world.

Everyone is not cut out for college. However, college also does not determine success. The problem is we've conditioned people to believe that college is the ticket to success when it simply is not the case. You have to choose wisely when going to college, particularly when a lot of debt is concerned. The problem with our system is that the availability of student loans through the government acts as inflationary when it comes to tuition since anyone can get financing.

It only makes sense to take out debt (and even then it is questionable) at the very best schools assuming your job prospects are better than average. If someone wants to go $100k in debt to go to MIT, that is reasonable. However, $100k in debt for an degree at University of Phoenix is retarded. The job prospects and opportunities are far different. Not all schools are created equal, nor are areas of study.

Feds should require schools provide a guarantee against default for student loans for say at least five years. Basically, the schools need to be part of the risk taking so that they are not encouraged to continually raise tuition and also so they have incentive to ensure graduates are employable. Right now, schools really have no skin in the game.

I saw an article where Mark Zuckerberg was saying that his parents gave him two choices. He could go to college or they would invest in a McDonald's for him. He obviously chose Harvard and the rest was history.

Anyway, I bring this up as I think about my kids and the money my wife and I are saving to cover college. Part of me thinks they'd be better off if I just took that $250k or whatever I manage to save and invest it instead so that when they hit 40 or 50 years old, they have a substantial nest egg.

Think about it, if you saved $250k for your kid to go to college but instead tell them you are going to take that money and invest it. $250k over 30 years if you assume a 10% return would grow to about $4 million.

I will be coming up on my 30 year college anniversary soon. I know I'd much rather have $4 million than going to my college reunion.

a reply to: Edumakated

Part of me thinks they'd be better off if I just took that $250k or whatever I manage to save and invest it instead so that when they hit 40 or 50 years old, they have a substantial nest egg.

Each child matures at a very different rate. You could have a child ready to start a business at 17 and one that is barely launching at 28, some still acting like fools at 40.

I tested the water with my son and gave him a substantial sum, it was gone in a blink and spent in ways I didn't feel were wise. A few years ago I gave my daughter a very small sum and she tripled it very quickly...
My other daughter is somewhere in the middle. She is absolutely brilliant, gifted, crazy scary smart. She is a very deep thinker. The problem with that one is she has half of the self esteem of the other two, yet ten times the ability. Or she is so smart she is being that way so people don't expect the greatness that she is able to produce... We'll never know.


It's weird how each child can be so different, and how their personalities shape them.

college is not as valuable as advertised anymore.

a reply to: Nyiah

Depends. I make over 100k more than I did before I got my degree.

a reply to: Edumakated

The imagery of Zuckerblurb manning a fryer. As a former restaurant worker, I find that pretty amusing.

Begrudgingly, I concede that as much as I dislike Zuck and his FrankeBook's monster creation, his company has been a very innovative one, in terms of software engineering practices and R&D. So yup, I think matriculating into Harvard was the right move.

Still, one can't help but wonder what might have been...

a reply to: JAGStorm

You have that right. A few weeks ago I went to a funeral for one of my high school Principals who was also a friend. I ran into my Guidance Councilor from that time. She asked what I was doing and it blew her mind when I told her that I was a Mechanical Engineer for a major corporation. This is the woman who told me my Senior year that it was a good thing that I was going into the Navy because I wasn't college material. I told her that I had four Associate's Degrees and a Bachelor's Degree. I said "Not too bad for someone that you said wasn't college material." Then I told her that at the time she was right. I wasn't college material, it wasn't until the Navy when we had guys with degrees in Forestry and Music who were officers and pilots that I wanted my degree.

You do not need a college degree to live in this world. In high school they try to push kids into signing up for college, mostly to support their colleagues the college professors and to grow the education industry. Teachers are of a kind with other teachers, they share beliefs and their beliefs usually include college is important. Even with financial aide, there is still a big loan that needs to be taken out for the four years of college for most kids, and now they want credit reports of parents and a signed cosign agreement of the parents most times. Yet the parents have little say in what classes the kids take. Colleges usually push classes that are not important to getting a job in the field during the first two years...wasted money.

It used to be that employers put you into a training position and within four years you worked your way up the ladder while you got paid a little less. At four years you could get a better position in the company and the longer you were there the more chance for advancement. College degrees took away those promotions from regular people and the people with those degrees are often overeducated idiots....they lost their common sense in college a lot of times. Plus they think they are better than those who are working their way up the ladder pretty often because they dumped tens of thousands on their education. That is not always true though, it is a false belief.

a reply to: rickymouse

I got my Associate's Degree on my own, my employer sent me to school for my Bachelor's Degree. We had a retirement dinner for one of our Engineers. The restaurant where the held the dinner had a Hepatitis outbreak and we lost almost the entire Department for three months. I kept out projects on track and on time, so they sent me to school.