China And Yale's Skull And Bones Cult.

For folks interested in historical NWO research then thought there was some pretty revealing info below about how the Rothschilds and Rockefellers first got their foothold into China - also a rather interesting nugget about how China's largest U.S. trading house at the time was founded by Samuel Russell.. who just happened to be cousin of William Russell (founder of Yale University's Skull And Bones cult).

China fighting the New World Order? Are they forging their own world order? Or is China just another actor on the global stage?

The Corbett vid below also contains some really intriguing info including how Yale University established a number of schools throughout China back in 1903 with Mao Tse Tung as one of their students (linked article below).

Also found it extremely curious how virtually all U.S. diplomatic representatives to China have been members of Yale University's Skull and Bones cult.

Video


Military tensions, cyber espionage accusations, a brewing currency war; with every passing day, the headlines paint a convincing portrait of an emerging cold war between China and the West.

But is this surface level reality the whole picture, or is there a deeper level to this conflict? Is China an opponent to the New World Order global governmental system or a witting collaborator with it?

• Articles:

Yale Daily News - Feb 29th 1972

'Yale Group Spurs Mao's Emergence'


Newsclipping


William F Buckley was not the only Yale figure connected with the presidential trip to China, without Yale support. Mao Tse Tung may have never risen from obscurity to command China.

Jonathan Spence, professor of Chinese history, was the first to discover Mao Tse Tung's connection with Yale. The Professor noted "In 1919 Mao, aged 26, was in Changsha, having finished his middle school education, he visited Peking and while there received a serious introduction to communist theory in Leeteuk Charles' Marxist study group".

Now, if he was to develop a reputation in socialist circles, he had to find a form to propagate his views. At this crucial point The Student Union of Yale and China invited Mao to take over the editorship of their journal. Mao accepted the position and changed the format of the student magazine. It would now deal with social criticism and current problems and focus on 'Thought Reorientation'.


(Source: Yale Daily News no. 96 February 29 1972

S + B Ambassadors:

The New Federalist - January 26th 1990


'Bush's China Policy - Skull and Bones'


• George Bush, the first US diplomatic representative to the People's Republic of China back in 1973, was a member of skull and bones. So were his father, brother, son, uncle, nephew and several cousins.


• Winston Lord the Reagan Bush administration ambassador to China was a member. So were his father and several other relatives.


• James Lilly, the current ambassador to China, was a member of Skull and Bones, as was his brother.


• Except during the Carter administration, every US ambassador to Beijing since Kissinger's deal with Mao Tse Tung was a member of the same tiny Yale cult.


A mere coincidence?

Source Links

...

Realize the majority on folks on ATS will be well aware of Yale's Skull and Bones cult but there's a nice refresher article below and also quite a rare vid with Professor Anthony Sutton discussing the group.

Skull and Bones, the Elite of the Empire

Thanks to its links with the business sector, especially with the banking sector, these old 'pals' of Yale University would control the world finances, and even the future of the world.

The Skulls & Bones would have infiltrated into the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the CIA, etc.

Another source of funds: the Rockefeller. Percy Rockefeller was member of the Order and linked the organization to the properties of the Standard Oil.

Another important family linked to the Skull & Bones is the Morgans. J.P. Morgan was never a member of the association, but Harold Stanley, member of the leading group of Morgan’s Guaranty Trust, was a member since 1908.

W. Averell Harriman, from the graduation of 1913, was also a member of the administrative council, as well as H.P. Whitney and his father, W.C. Whitney.

The organization has been able to benefit indirectly from the funds of the Ford’s family, apparently against its will.

link

Vid:

Professor Anthony C. Sutton. The Order of Skull and Bones.

Classic interview by Professor Antony C. Sutton, who taught economics at California State University, and was a research fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. Here, Professor Sutton talks of his scholarly research on the Order of Skull and Bones, and expands on his groundbreaking book on the subject: “America’s Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of Skull and Bones”.

Pretty crazy that many of these same families were also directly implicated in the funding (and technology transfer) to Nazi Germany but suppose that's a discussion for another thread.

Viewer discretion but there's also this very freaky audio secretly recorded at a S+B initiation a few years ago and really was put in mind of the CCC footage (found at 4:40) secretly recorded back in 2000.

a reply to: karl 12

Excellent thread!

It is fascinating how the big eugenicist families were able to implement various experiments in countries throughout the 20th century.

Pretty crazy that many of these same families were also directly implicated in the funding (and technology transfer) to Nazi Germany but suppose that's a discussion for another thread.

Viewer discretion but there's also this very freaky audio secretly recorded at a S+B initiation a few years ago and really was put in mind of the CCC footage found at 4:40 secretly recorded back in 2000.

Not only did they create the nazi regime and Mao/CCP, they also ran the operation of Lenin/Stalin.

You have done a wonderful job pointing out the Yale connections, the NWO has been well documented.

Thank you once again!

S&F

S & F! If more people payed any attention at all to these secret societies they would not have the power and control they are freely given.

They aren't even so secret anymore people are just too ignorant and distracted to add things up. Evil use to have to operate in the dark, now they often mockingly shove it in our faces.

More excellent content & very relevant to our current & disturbing transformation into neo-serfdom.

The evidence is clear & the documentation is available.

If one desires to know, they can know.

Most don't want to---and at this point I can kind of understand why.

I have no optimism as regards any kind of democratic future. Pain & sadness incoming.

Having said that---we do have some control over our own sphere. Love your loved ones and where possible love your neighbor too.

Someone, somewhere alluded to a time when "the love of many will grow cold."

Resist that.

a reply to: The GUT

The GUT, hear hear. Specifically about loving your neighbors or friends, although I think that many live simply "around" one another not with. I am fortunate to live in a community with a certain vibe. It's an old town and most of us seem to have similar views on folks in the city. Old churches, you name it. I think that the love growing cold seems more structural. City slickers dont know what it is. In fact hearing it, they'd just think someone grew cynical in their heart when really its a case of not knowing where or what ones heart is supposed to be. ..

Appreciate the posts guys and recently saw this vid featuring Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt (father and grandfather both members of Skull and Bones) - some pretty fascinating insights on education, Hegelian social theory and the experimental psychology of Wilhelm Wundt (funded as always by the Rockefeller Foundation).

Haven't read 'The Leipzig Connection' yet but she does go through Professor Sutton's book on the Yale cult.





As for China thought there was some really interesting points raised in this recent discussion.

a reply to: karl 12

Thanks for the recommend. I saw an article there on China's "red nobility" with charts and found that interesting. These were the 8 families responsible for the communist revolution. Similar parallel. Apparently by overthrow of the govt structure, they set themselves and their families up for an amount of wealth unavailable to most of their people. I appreciate it, thanks again. .

‘Chief Justice of the US Bonesman M.R. Waite in 1886 declared, in two sentences and with no debate, that corporations have the rights of a person’ from:

'Fleshing Out Skull and Bones: an Investigation into America's Most Powerful Secret Society' published by TrineDay.com a book of essays by researchers many who got to know each other through the Internet; published 2004. Overview:

'This chronicle of espionage, drug smuggling, and elitism in Yale University's Skull & Bones society offers rare glimpses into this secret world with previously unpublished documents, photographs, and articles that delve into issues such as racism, financial ties to the Nazi party, and illegal corporate dealings.

'Contributors include Anthony Sutton, author of America's Secret Establishment; Dr. Ralph Bunch, professor emeritus of political science at Portland State University; Webster Griffin Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin, authors and historians.

A complete list of members, including George Bush, George W. Bush and John F. Kerry, and reprints of rare magazine articles are included.' clip
www.barnesandnoble.com...
~~
'Some believe the group was responsible for the Kennedy assassination. They invented the nuclear weapon, funded and influenced the Illuminati, and even ran the Central Intelligence Agency.’ clip

'The Order of Skull and Bones is a secret organization formed in 1832 at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. William Huntington Russell, founder of Skull and Bones, was inspired by an esoteric organization he visited in Germany. Alphonso Taft, future Secretary of War under President Grant and father of President William Howard Taft… who would also be a member of Skull and Bones, was a co-founder. Among Bonesman’s notable clients are numerous presidents and modern-day power brokers.'
voices.shortpedia.com...
~~
When Did Companies Become People? Excavating The Legal Evolution

Excerpt: ’The Supreme Court extended that protection to corporations, and over time also extended some — but not all — of the rights guaranteed to individuals in the Bill of Rights. The court ruled that corporations don't have a right against self-incrimination, for instance, but are protected by the ban on warrantless search and seizure.’ clip

Then came Citizens United, the Supreme Court's 5-4 First Amendment decision in 2010 that extended to corporations for the first time full rights to spend money as they wish in candidate elections — federal, state and local. The decision reversed a century of legal understanding, unleashed a flood of campaign cash and created a crescendo of controversy that continues to build today.

www.npr.org...

a reply to: karl 12

Dig deep enough using titanium shovels, and you'll find 322 connections 😎

originally posted by: The GUT

More excellent content & very relevant to our current & disturbing transformation into neo-serfdom.

The evidence is clear & the documentation is available.

Good to see you mate and alas I think you've got it spot on about the potential for neo-serfdom - really does look like the 'new international economic order' are going for it when it comes to the monopolization of the world's resources.

Worst case scenario is of course food and really can't help being reminded of Mao's 'Great Leap Forward'.

From going forward from the time when Mao took over the country and began his absolutely horrific abominable 'Great Leap Forward' that resulted in the deaths of at least forty million people in the starvation that occurred in that four-year window.

Forty million people starving to death during the 'Great Leap Forward'.

Here's how David Rockefeller described it in the New York Times:

"The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history."

(Source: Rockefeller: From A China Traveler (1973)

Not to sound too pessimistic but also think there's a very real possibility for the emergence of Solzhenitsyn like gulags.

Did you see the technocrats like Rothschild, Soros, Rockefeller, Kissenger, Brzezinski etc. gushing over China at the beginning of the Corbett vid - pretty disturbing stuff.

originally posted by: The GUT

Having said that---we do have some control over our own sphere. Love your loved ones and where possible love your neighbor too.

Very well said my friend.

originally posted by: TheReaversChain

Thanks for the recommend. I saw an article there on China's "red nobility" with charts and found that interesting.

No worries mate and also thought there was another interesting chart found here taken from the article below.

By the 1870s, The Order (Skull and Bones and Scroll and Key) had Yale University under its control. Every president of Yale since Timothy Dwight has either been a member of the Bones or has family connections to The Order.

A Deep Dive into New Underworld Order Hegelian Dialectic With Antony Sutton

originally posted by: xuenchen

Dig deep enough using titanium shovels, and you'll find 322 connections 😎

Yes indeed mate - there's some pretty illuminating source material found in this article including what 'The Order of File and Claw' found when they broke into lodge-room 322 (also further speculation about the Yale / China connection).

a reply to: karl 12

Another intriguing and fantastic thread! The Despotism runs vast and deep. Wow, that Real World Order site has certainly documented many noteworthy quotes and book listings!!

But is this surface level reality the whole picture, or is there a deeper level to this conflict? Is China an opponent to the New World Order global governmental system or a witting collaborator with it?

I've been pondering that very question for over a year now. On one hand the globalist ruling elites including members within CCP and associated secret societies might be "ALL in it together." I'm sure there is factions in every developed country government that are in on it together, as well as opposing factions and round table secret societies of influence.

On the economic power play front, BlackRock has recently seeped into China and its Real Estate arm Blackstone who's CEO Stephen A. Schwarzman is Skull & Bones member.

So many connections one would have to draw a map the size of a football stadium that would like a spider web of many layers. This historian made a good attempt at such a Brain map.

I think some form of technocrat Neo-feudalism is in our near future. Practically EVERYTHING in mainstream is all distractions, psychological warfare and manipulation in luring many into a trap that will likely snap shut toward the end of this decade and then the 'Reset' button will be pushed.

This masonic-like Hegelian Dialectic will result in the reconstruction and consolidation of every aspect of our known matrix. 50% of US jobs will not survive the 4IR according to Klaus Schwab.
Klaus says Talentism will replace capitalism - teaching kids to become entrepreneurs will be their way out of poverty. This will encourage extreme competition resulting in the integration of AI for a more intelligent 4IR competitor.
Klaus Schwab: Global Leadership needed in the Era of Fourth Industrial Revolution (vid from June 2016)

Don't forget about Yale's Scroll and Key Society (oldest & most wealthy), and Wolf's Head Society.

Most have heard of Yale's "Skull & Bones" and "Scroll and Key" but this one is new to me...

Skull & Keys is a men's honor society at the University of California, Berkeley. The organization was started by Theta Nu Epsilon. Much of the society's practices, members, and traditions are kept secret. Skull & Keys is the first of several collegiate secret societies to have originated from the fraternity system at Berkeley, the others being the Sigma Phi Society of the Thorsen House and Sons and Daughters of California.

Skull and Keys Initiation Annual Running Ritual - The Daily Californian, Wednesday morning, Nov. 8, 1899.

Theta Nu Epsilon (ΘΝΕ, commonly known as T.N.E.) is a sophomore class society. Founded at Wesleyan University in 1870 as a chapter of Skull and Bones, the society accepts members regardless of their fraternity status.

Theta Nu Epsilon

Motto: "Little is known, what is known is kept secret."

Insignia: Skull and crossed keys, one red eye for Bacchus the god of wine, one green eye for jealousy (of what, they do not say)

Purpose: They see themselves as the moral police of the Greek system

Claim to Fame: Bi-annual Newsletter, Game Day Banners

Greek Life at the University of Nebraska

Arabic Skull and Bones?

The Boule: History of the Black Secret Society (15 min)
www.youtube.com...
Black version of the "SKULL AND BONES" society.

Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity, The Boulé: A Brief Overview (1904- )

In the article below Rodney J. Reed, former Grand Sire Archon of Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity and author of A Grand Journey: The History of Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity, 1904-2010, briefly outlines the history of the oldest continuously existing Black Greek-letter fraternity in the United States.

Founded on May 15, 1904, Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity, also known as the Boulé, which in Ancient Greece was a “Council of Chiefs,” is the oldest continuously existing Greek-letter post-graduate fraternity originally founded by, and primarily for, eminent black professional men and later similar professional men of African descent throughout the world.

From an initial membership of six founders located in the city of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity has grown to presently include over 5,000 active members who are affiliated with 139 member boulés (chapters) located throughout the United States and in the Bahamas and the United Kingdom.

Incorporated in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1912, since 2004 Sigma Pi Fraternity has maintained its executive office in the city of Atlanta, Georgia which is managed by the fraternity’s Grand Grammateus, who also serves as its secretary.

The late Congressman John R. Lewis (Georgia) and Elijah E. Cummings (Maryland) were members as was Bill Cosby.

The Boulé Journal Cover, Summer 2020:


Steve Cokely speaks on Henry Mckee Minton, Sigma Pi Phi (Grand Boule) and their relation to Skull and Bones:
www.youtube.com...

Here's a Boulé youtube playlist

Aside from the Mellon banking family dark history, Mary Mellon wife of Paul Mellon was anti-war, anti-gov't and deeply involved on the meta-physical side. An astute follower of theosophy, mystery schools teachings of Rudolf Steiner, George Gurdjieff, and Carl Jung. Paul Mellon, member of the Yale Scroll and Key secret society which both Skull & Bones are linked to the Thule Society in Germany. Both had a strong intellectual, meta-pyhsical and philosophical bond. Both were likely privy to secrets held within both the Vril and Thule society. Was Carl Jung a Thule society member?

Source for above Mellon info is from: Dark Journalist: Truth UFO Disclosure & Mellon Family Secrets!
www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: EndtheMadnessNow

Wow, that Real World Order site has certainly documented many noteworthy quotes and book listings!!

Indeed it does mate and looks like folks have been ringing the alarm bells for decades (and decades) about specific families and their end games.

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."

U.S. Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

Quotes

Also thought the statement made in 1922 by New York City Mayor John F. Hylan was a really relevant one.

originally posted by: EndtheMadnessNow

I've been pondering that very question for over a year now. On one hand the globalist ruling elites including members within CCP and associated secret societies might be "ALL in it together."

God knows but the precision funding and technolgy transfer to China does seem very reminiscent to Sutton's research into the build up of Nazi Germany - especially considering the U.S. players involved.

G.W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, and his father in law, George Herbert Walker, initially made their fortune supplying the Nazi War Machine as it rolled its way through in conquest of Europe. 

Bush money supplied Nazi steel, gas, materials, ammo, and on and on until Prescott was charged with the trading with the enemy act.

link

Henry Ford's S + B involvement is also extremely suspect (pic) and when it comes to I.G. Farben then one of its cofounders was Max Warburg (brother of German bankster Paul Warburg who helped create the U.S. Federal Reserve).

As for China, there's some pretty specific info below on Yale and the Skull and Bones cult:

Back in 1903, Yale Divinity School established a number of schools and hospitals throughout China that were collectively known as 'Yale in China.' It has since been shown that 'Yale in China' was an intelligence network whose purpose was to destroy the republican movement of Sun Yat-sen on behalf of the Anglo-American Establishment. The Anglo-American "Establishment" hated Sun, because he wanted to develop China. On the other hand, they loved the Chinese communists because they intended to keep China backward, and were committed to growing dope. One of 'Yale in China's' most important students was Mao Zedong.

"During World War II, 'Yale in China' was a primary instrument used by the U.S. Establishment and its Office of Strategic Services (OSS) to install the Maoists into power. 'Yale in China' was run by OSS operative Reuben Holden, the husband of Bush's cousin, and also a member of Skull and Bones.

"The Maoists made China into the world's largest opium producer. "'Yale in China' was also closely associated with the New York-based Union Theological Seminary, which has been a center for U.S. subversion of Asia (literal wolves in sheep's clothing - Branton). Every prominent radical leader operating in Korea today, for example, was trained at Union Theological. Union Theological was dominated for twenty years by Henry Sloane Coffin, a U.S. intelligence executive from the Sloane and Coffin families. He was a Skull and Bones member as were a dozen of his relatives.

"Nor should it be forgotten that Averell Harriman, the former Ambassador to Moscow who did so much to build up the Soviet Union, was a member of Skull and Bones. Harriman was also a business partner of Prescott Bush, Sr., the father of Maoist enthusiast George Bush."

originally posted by: EndtheMadnessNow

I'm sure there is factions in every developed country government that are in on it together, as well as opposing factions and round table secret societies of influence.

Think that's a pretty good estimation mate - not too sure but when it comes to funding of global coordination then would say the 'Bank Of International Settlements', Chatam House and the Gnomes of Basel play a role somehow.

originally posted by: EndtheMadnessNow

On the economic power play front, BlackRock has recently seeped into China and its Real Estate arm Blackstone who's CEO Stephen A. Schwarzman is Skull & Bones member.

Didn't know that but it does explain a lot - Blackstone, Blackrock and Vanguard do seem to pop up everywhere and was recently reading about the potential collapse of China's Evergrande kickstarting the controlled demolition of the global economy (let's hope it doesn't).

Thanks for the great post and info.

Don't suppose you can do a thread like this without bringing up Bill Clinton and 'Chinagate'.

Apparently Clinton is part of the Taft family (important S+B bloodline) and Pamela Harriman (last wife of Skull and Bones member William Averell
Harriman) put Clinton in the White House.

At the time Chinagate was described as 'the most serious scandal in U.S. history' so for deflection the 'Lewinsky scandal' was orchestrated as a media smokescreen.

See 27:20

Chinagate aka Commercegate is the most serious scandal in U.S. history.

It involves the transfer of America’s most sensitive technology, including but not limited to nuclear missile and satellite technology, apparently in exchange for millions of dollars in contributions to the 1996 Clinton-Gore re-election effort and the Democratic National Committee.

Lest we forget Clinton’s Chinagate scandal, the worst in US history

originally posted by: karl 12

originally posted by: EndtheMadnessNow

Wow, that Real World Order site has certainly documented many noteworthy quotes and book listings!!

Indeed it does mate and looks like folks have been ringing the alarm bells for decades (and decades) about specific families and their end games.

Absolutely, but very few pay any attention. I hear it all the time...It doesn't affect me..they would never do that to us. Those titanium blinders work really well. Most folks over here in the degrading West don't pay much attention to any of the diabolical elites as they're too busy with work/life and on those damn phones. The 'Metaverse' will soon be here and many will be sucked right into it like a blackhole. Gives me negative vibes from the movie Surrogates.

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."

U.S. Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

Quotes

Also thought the statement made in 1922 by New York City Mayor John F. Hylan was a really relevant one.

That Congressman quote and from NY mayor nailed it! You roll with their plan or you're out, permanently. I'm sure it has and continues even more so post-2020.

originally posted by: EndtheMadnessNow

I've been pondering that very question for over a year now. On one hand the globalist ruling elites including members within CCP and associated secret societies might be "ALL in it together."

God knows but the precision funding and technolgy transfer to China does seem very reminiscent to Sutton's research into the build up of Nazi Germany - especially considering the U.S. players involved.

I got a helluva story regards to funding and technology transfer to China. I was in on that, unknowingly at the time, I even trained some of them. Fooled by big corporate elite powers. Makes me sick when I think back on it, but that story is for another time.

Henry Ford's S + B involvement is also extremely suspect (pic) and when it comes to I.G. Farben then one of its cofounders was Max Warburg (brother of German bankster Paul Warburg who helped create the U.S. Federal Reserve).

As for China, there's some pretty specific info below on Yale and the Skull and Bones cult:

Yes, I was absolutely astounded to learn 312 families of the old aristocracy 3,592 princes joined the Nazis (26.9%) before Hitler came to power in 1933. Today, it seems like most all of the World's nobility (even Arabs) are all in it together on their fantasy revolution to change humanity AND the planet.

The Henry Ford pic with the common nobility sash says he was one of them, aside from his strong anti-Semitic views. I think the Skull and Bones cult are internationalists as in Int'l cabal that have infiltrated the world's top level governments and ivy league institutions.

Think that's a pretty good estimation mate - not too sure but when it comes to funding of global coordination then would say the 'Bank Of International Settlements', Chatam House and the Gnomes of Basel play a role somehow.

LOL. “the Gnomes of Basel” - haven't heard that slogan in a long time. Interesting comment from that link!

Didn't know that but it does explain a lot - Blackstone, Blackrock and Vanguard do seem to pop up everywhere and was recently reading about the potential collapse of China's Evergrande kickstarting the controlled demolition of the global economy (let's hope it doesn't).

Some refer to them as the United States of BlackRock. Practically, everything I own and use in my day-to-day life is owned/managed by BlackRock/Vanguard right down to the beer & soda I occasionally drink. These guys make the robber barons of hundred years ago look tame.

On March 18, Dr. Ryan Cole, a board-certified pathologist and owner and operator of a diagnostics lab, reported to the public in a video produced by Idaho state government’s “Capitol Clarity” project, that he is seeing a massive ‘uptick’ in various autoimmune diseases and cancers in patients who have been vaccinated.

23andMe sold the rights to a drug it developed from its genetic database (Jan 2020)

The drug the company sold to Almirall is a molecule that blocks signals from small proteins that are involved in autoimmune diseases. 23andMe targeted the compound to treat psoriasis, an autoimmune disease that causes red and scaly skin patches.

Autoimmune Diseases


Evergrande Health

Snippets from wiki:

- The group has a mineral water brand Evergrande Spring.

- Evergrande has expanded into solar panels, pig farming, agribusiness, and baby formula.

- Evergrande Health, a listed subsidiary of Evergrande Group.
"Evergrande Health Group" primarily operates "Evergrande Health Valley" in the retirement apartment community and works with Brigham and Women's Hospital in Massachusetts to manage Hainan's "Boao Evergrande International Hospital".

Double post

a reply to: karl 12



Those who chose to serve Satan

a reply to: karl 12

Something not right with this thread.. had to log out to amend posts...