The Roswell Perfect Storm

I have had this idea, this possibility, about the Roswell incident in my head for some time. Below I present a Perfect Storm of what might have happened. I based it on the following, if I recall, if not, I will embellish:

1) No one can actually date the day the actual "crash" happened

2) It was said there were storms leading up to the days before the debris was found by Brazel

3) According to witnesses the smell of decomposing bodies was horrendous (denoting they've been out there a period of days)

4) UFO's have been monitoring atomic weapons testing which the area has been known for, given that white sands is not that far from Roswell and Corona.

5) Perhaps they also had a curious interest in the balloon trains as well for the Russian detonation detecting testing and capabilities.

6) Perhaps the balloon tests were conducted in stormy weather since monitoring Russian Detonation can happen anytime 7/24 365. It would make sense then that a balloon system would have to be tested to fly in adverse conditions which could crop up at anytime here in the states.

7) UFO's would have to fly in those same adverse conditions, if they were curious of how the balloons would hold up in those conditions.

So, in essence the debris found at the site(s) was from a storm related, midair collision, and became a mix of balloon debris and UFO craft debris.

Both debris were sorted out, and it was pieces of the balloon train debris that Marcell was forced to display for the newspaper pictures. As for the UFO debris that was found ...as it has been said...sent to Wright Pat.

It makes sense to me..........if not, it makes good material for a new "What If" movie.

The Roswell Perfect Storm

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

1) No one can actually date the day the actual "crash" happened

Crash might be a misnomer. But whatever fell to ground did so in June or very early July 1947. The Wilmots sighting, which may or may not be related, is recorded as happening on July 2nd 1947. But I think you are correct. The exact date is unknown.

2) It was said there were storms leading up to the days before the debris was found by Brazel

I don't know if Brazel ever confirmed that. But if this was the case then you could make an educated guess. Tutiempo.net records historical weather conditions. In June 1947 there were thunderstorms over Roswell on the 8th,15th,18th,19th,20th and 25th June.

In early July 1947 ,before Brazel reported his find in Roswell, there were no thunderstorms recorded.

3) According to witnesses the smell of decomposing bodies was horrendous (denoting they've been out there a period of days)

Are those reports actually trustworthy? The problem with the dead bodies stories are that no one, including base intelligence officer Jesse Marcel mentioned bodies, until the 1980s. Glenn Dennis lied about his nurse friend who claims to have seen bodies at the RAAF infirmary. She never existed.

4) UFO's have been monitoring atomic weapons testing which the area has been known for, given that white sands is not that far from Roswell and Corona.

The old nuclear theory. How did aliens detect these nuclear blasts from light years away and then arrive a few years later. The nearest star system is around 4 light years away. Plus of course the early nuclear detonations were miniscule compared to cosmic collisions like Shoemaker-Levy comet slamming into Jupiter. Said to be 600 times the power of all the world's nuclear arsenals. It's a big universe out there with a lot energy ripping through it.

5) Perhaps they also had a curious interest in the balloon trains as well for the Russian detonation detecting testing and capabilities.

How would aliens pick up intelligence on what these balloon trains might be for compared to say other balloons, kites and aircraft?

6) Perhaps the balloon tests were conducted in stormy weather since monitoring Russian Detonation can happen anytime 7/24 365. It would make sense then that a balloon system would have to be tested to fly in adverse conditions which could crop up at anytime here in the states.

You could make a start by studying that theory with the findings of the Report on Project Mogul. I have my doubts

7) UFO's would have to fly in those same adverse conditions, if they were curious of how the balloons would hold up in those conditions.

See 6.

Both debris were sorted out, and it was pieces of the balloon train debris that Marcell was forced to display for the newspaper pictures. As for the UFO debris that was found ...as it has been said...sent to Wright Pat.

How much debris do you think was actually recovered? As far as I know only Marcel with a pick up truck recovered material.

1947 news reports also stated it was made up of rubber tinfoil, paper and sticks. No mysterious metal or any signs of propulsion.

a reply to: mirageman

All point replies well taken

My reply to your replies…

2) June 25th would be close enough to July 2 to be plausible for the mishap…Brazel might not have visited that part of the ranch acreage in between those dates to discover the debris earlier.

4) No one can say with confidence that EBE’s were not already here flying around military bases in general to assess military capabilities. They didn’t have to travel light years.

5) As an alien…..wouldn’t you be curious seeing a balloon with a long train of shiny reflectors and equipment hanging from it lifting off a military base that you may have been observing or in passing by…

You stated…..” How much debris do you think was actually recovered? As far as I know only Marcel with a pick up truck recovered material.

1947 news reports also stated it was made up of rubber tinfoil, paper and sticks. No mysterious metal or any signs of propulsion.”…..

IF there was debris from a UFO crash….wouldn’t you think the military would have gone back with other cargo trucks for retrieval after Marcel used the smaller truck he was using? How else would they have gotten the debris staged and crated for air transport to Wright Pat..

News reports are for general consumption, behind the scenes military operations….not so much. I’m sure you’ve seen pictures of the balloon payloads that were being used in development and testing. There are all kinds of instruments, mechanical constructs, etc…I doubt simple small town and ranch folk of the day were kept abreast of military balloon payloads and the varying configurations to distinguish American know how, versus let’s say….extraterrestrial propulsion systems. Of course the surrounding population may have been given government notices to the effect, if they see or encounter large balloons with shiny metal things attached and on the ground....to contact them. Not revealed in the notice, is the details of what the shiny metals things and apparatuses are and what they are for.

For example …. Do you think the people of Roswell or Corona would have known what this is? Once, something like this is smashed to the ground in pieces…..versus what an alien propulsion system may look like?

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Just a couple of points:

Operation Mogul employed high-altitude balloons, which fly between 50,000 and 120,000 feet; well Above the maximum altitude at which thunderstorms propagate. I can attest, from personal experience, that launching a high-altitude balloon, yet alone, a "train" if high-altitude balloons, in anything stronger than a stiff breeze, is an exercise in futility doomed to failure. Furthermore, once launched, such balloons usually have very rapid climb rates; on the order of 1,000 feet per minute; unless the launch team was foolish enough to attempt a Mogul launch, literally within minutes of an approaching storm front (say within one hour of the storm hitting), the balloon array would climb well above any interaction with the front. And the rising winds preceding the front would have made the launch exceedingly difficult, and very dangerous.

Also, is it reasonable to suggest that a craft capable of interstellar travel could be brought down, or even damaged in any way by a mere thunderstorm? Would not such a craft have had to have endured encountered energies far greater during its transit from its homeworld to Earth? Is it conceivable that the atmosphere of its home planet never experiences storm-like conditions for which its builders would have accounted for in its design?

Ah! you might suggest, but suppose the vehicle became entangled in the debris of the Mogul apparatus in mid-air, and thus lost its flight capability?

But, to be able to traverse interstellar space at even a high percentage of the speed of light (which itself could entail a trip many thousands of years long) the craft would have to incorporate some form of "collision-avoidance" system, like a "force-sheild" or debris targeting energy beam, because at those speeds, colliding with even a stray atom of hydrogen would be catastrophic.

originally posted by: Mantiss2021
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Is it conceivable that the atmosphere of its home planet never experiences storm-like conditions for which its builders would have accounted for in its design?

Ah! you might suggest, but suppose the vehicle became entangled in the debris of the Mogul apparatus in mid-air, and thus lost its flight capability?

But, to be able to traverse interstellar space at even a high percentage of the speed of light (which itself could entail a trip many thousands of years long) the craft would have to incorporate some form of "collision-avoidance" system, like a "force-sheild" or debris targeting energy beam, because at those speeds, colliding with even a stray atom of hydrogen would be catastrophic.

I wont argue the atmospheric altitudes you present…..sounds reasonable to me.

As for your other points……I like the home planet atmosphere versus the designed craft that may not handle our atmosphere in stormy conditions scenario. I would suggest as in my drawing that a lightning strike may not also be accounted for in the crafts design.

A midair collision (which covers an entanglement, since the craft comes in contact with the balloons train) ….is precisely what I’m suggesting. Collision and the act of entangling both include a contact.

Sure the collision and avoid system (force field) sounds reasonable for interstellar flight as well within our atmosphere. My scenario is that the craft, in a lightning storm within the proximity of a balloon and it’s long train, is not moving fast since it may be pacing the balloon, near hovering is close enough. Force fields (Shields).. I assume take a lot of power to maintain. Conserving energy in near hover mode would be power efficient. Therefore no need to waist power on force fields. Imo.

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I've said before:- Roswell base was an active base for the delivery of nuclear ordinance and it would be inconceivable that Roswell was not informed of the Mogul flights. They might not have known the reason for the flights but believe me if you are flying bombers with nuclear weapons they would have been told so they could vector their aircraft away from the area at such a time as launch.
AND being an airbase with such a responsibility they would have known that Mogul was a terrestrial entity. They may have not have known it's purpose, but they would know what the wreckage was. Therefore why transport it to Wright- Pattison base. Besides every array that's launched has a radio sonde to send back A. the gathering information, and B. to track it's flight and approximate landing area. Then they would follow up of retrieval and because Roswell picked up the supposed balloon array the Mogul team would have got it off Roswell.
Or do you all think the Mogul crew just forgot about the arrays after they launched it.

a reply to: crayzeed

…….” Besides every array that's launched has a radio sonde to send back A. the gathering information, and B. to track it's flight and approximate landing area. Then they would follow up of retrieval and because Roswell picked up the supposed balloon array the Mogul team would have got it off Roswell.
Or do you all think the Mogul crew just forgot about the arrays after they launched it.”…..

Reasonable except for Murphy’s Law…..is it not conceivable that a catastrophic event could take place disabling the equipment of the balloon? Perhaps a onboard power loss…..or a power drain by the inherent supposed trait of an alien craft being close to anything with electronics, or a lightning strike.

Are you saying no Mogul balloon has ever been lost or unretrievable by the Mogul team?

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The Twining Memo of 23td September 1947 to AAF Commanding General George Schlugen is an interesting one. It indicates that ;

"...the [UFO] phenomenon reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious"

For those that believe Roswell (or any other UFO event prior to Sept 1947) may have been an ET crash covered up by the US military, though there is also another comment from Twining. He confirms there is a ‘lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects’.

Due consideration must be given the following:- .................. (2) The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects............

Twining was also supposedly in New Mexico between July 7th and left on July 11th, 1947.

I'll also add that I am more interested in the Roswell story because of the numerous revisions it's been given and how one Richard Doty's boss Richard Weaver ended up writing the official Air Force report in the 1990s!!

It’s always generally considered that the Roswell UFO story died in July 1947 and there it lay until 1978.

However that’s not quite true. There are brief mentions in the UFO literature prior to 1978. None mention alien bodies.


Flying Saucers on the Attack by Harold Wilkins, 1954 – page 71 :

"Close to the place where the first atomic bomb was tested, a rancher in Roswell, New Mexico, U.S.A. said, in July 1947, to have found a flying saucer. It landed on his ranch, and was inspected by officers of the 509th atomic bomb group of the 8th U.S. Air Force, who sent it to a ‘higher quarter.’

This reported find followed a report from Dr. C. J. Zohn, guided missile expert of the U.S. Naval Laboratory, that he and two other scientists had sighted a flying saucer near White Sands, New Mexico, a proving ground to which public access is prohibited.

Down came U.S. Army authorities who declared this was merely a weather balloon; despite the plain statement of Mr. Ivan R. Tannehill, weather bureau chief forecaster, that it was unlikely that this mysterious object speeding through the skies at a speed above the rate of transmission of sound waves, could have been a weather balloon. He pointed out that weather balloons have been in use for many years."

Flying Saucer Review (Spring 1955 – First Issue)

In the very first issue of the British publication there is a story from Hughie Green. Green was a British/Canadian TV presenter, who was taking a solo trip by car from Hollywood to Philadelphia during the summer of 1947. He recalled that whilst driving across the USA he heard numerous radio reports that a flying saucer had crashed in New Mexico and that the United States army were moving in to investigate. After promises that the story would be updated he then recalls everything went silent about 250 miles out of Philadelphia:

“A commentator interrupted a programme to make the announcement that a saucer had crashed in New Mexico, and that the Army were moving in to investigate. Later the programme was interrupted again, and quite a few details given. Several news flashes about the incident, from various radio stations, followed. The last I heard was just before reaching Philadelphia. The announcer promised further bulletins. None followed. When I got to Philadelphia I bought all the newspapers I could lay my hands on. But not one carried the story, and questions at the radio station just drew a blank. It’s mystified me ever since”

Whilst this seems to be a very rare, if sketchy, recollection just 8 years after the Roswell incident the article goes on to state.

“Do the Americans have a flying saucer in their possession? Reports from America suggest that the US has more than one. More than one or parts of one at Wright Patterson Field……Flying Saucer enthusiasts all over the world believe there is some truth in the story but that it is being as carefully guarded as any atomic or military secret for fear of causing public panic.”

There is an old thread about Hughie Green Peripheral Witness to Roswell by yours truly.




Frank Edwards UFO Lectures (New York, April 28th 1956)

Speaking to the UFO research group Civilian Saucer Intelligence, Edwards informed the crowd :

"... at Roswell a farmer reported that he saw something strike a mountainside and crash. According to what I was told, they threw troops in a circle all around that place, and would let nobody in for five days. Finally they came up with a picture of a man holding a little crumpled kite with aluminium foil on it --- a radar target --- they said this was it --- believe it or not. There have been many other rumours since then of saucers having crashed. I don't know whether there's any truth in them."

UFOs - Serious Business by Frank Edwards 1966 page 76:

A similar tale from the Edwards but expanded a little for his book.

"There are such difficult cases as the rancher near Roswell, New Mexico, who phoned the Sheriff that a blazing disc-shaped object had passed over his house at low altitude and had crashed and burned on a hillside within view of the house. The Sheriff called the military; the military came on the double quick.

Newsmen were not permitted in the area. A week later, however, the government released a photograph of a service man holding up a box kite with an aluminium disc about the size of a large pie pan dangling from the bottom of the kite.

This, the official report explained, was a device borne aloft on the kite and used to test radar gear by bouncing the signals off the pie pan. And this, we were told, was the sort of thing that had so excited the rancher.

We were not told, however, how the alleged kite caught fire—nor why the military cordoned off the area while they inspected the wreckage of a burned-out box kite with a non-inflammable pie pan tied to it."

1968 - The Report on the UFO Wave of 1947 by Ted Bleacher

While newspapers still carried a few apparently genuine UFO reports – often buried among a mish-mash of superficial nonsense -- the kind of stories that made headlines after July 8th were the sort a reader found impossible to take seriously. If a report wasn’t an out-and-out hoax, it was an embarrassingly obvious mistake.

One of those mistakes, given the widest possible publicity, had its origins near Roswell, New Mexico, when a farmer named William W. ("Mac") Brazel discovered the wreckage of a disc on his ranch near Corona, early in July. After hearing news broadcasts of flying saucer reports, Brazel, who had stored pieces of the disc in a barn, notified the Sheriff’s Office in Roswell, who, in turn, notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the Roswell Army Air Field intelligence offlce....

Saga Magazine (Winter 1974 edition)

In New Mexico a woman (subsequently identified as Lydia Sleppy) with a responsible position received a call from a station manager. He had been checking out reports of a UFO which had crashed in a field and was trying to track down the rumour that pieces of the object were supposedly stored in a local barn.

In his excited call to the newsroom, the station manager verified the UFO crash report, and also claimed to have seen metallic pieces of the UFO being carried away to a waiting Air Force plane destined to Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
As the woman was typing the fantastic news item over the teletype to their other two stations, a line appeared in the middle of her text, tapped in from somewhere, with the official order, "Do not continue this transmission!"

originally posted by: mirageman

Due consideration must be given the following:- .................. (2) The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects............

It begs a conspiratorial question….is Twining’s letter to AAF Commanding General George Schlugen the beginning of the coverup and disinformation, where Schlugen takes it verbatim at face value…..meanwhile Twining has a different agenda to keep the physical proof hidden? Even from others in the military. Twining goes so far as to say the phenomenon exists but not as far as to say he has proof. Hmmmm

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

I doubt it. Schulgen, as Brig. General of the AAF outranked then Lt. Gen. Twining.

Unless you want to get into deep conspiracies of lower ranks conspiring to keep such a secret from senior officers?

a reply to: Ophiuchus1
What I am saying about the Mogul crew is they were not amateurs. Even after major failure they would try to recover. they would calculate wind drift weather phenomena etc. and they would have a rough idea which direction or area to search. What I am saying is Roswell had something that wasn't a balloon array but if it was don't you think the Mogul team would put out a "look for it" order. They still insist it was a Mogul array, yet after the discovery there is literally no mention of the Mogul team trying to get their array back. Now don't you think that's strange being as it's supposedly about Mogul secrecy.

a reply to: crayzeed

I read ya…..

My Op’s drawing presents a hypothetical….I show the ufo on its own, the balloon on its own, and then combined is what I’m suggesting. I’m on the fence with Roswell.

In another thread, I posted a radio interview of former (and I believe UFO enthusiast) ex-president Clinton. He says he read documents on a Roswell anniversary, and found no proof of a crash. I’m not saying he’s right or wrong..just another tiny nugget to add to the Roswell saga.

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originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Unless you want to get into deep conspiracies of lower ranks conspiring to keep such a secret from senior officers?

Yeaaaaah, No, I’ll stay out of those weeds…thank you much.

👽🛸

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
a reply to: mirageman

All point replies well taken

My reply to your replies…

2) June 25th would be close enough to July 2 to be plausible for the mishap…Brazel might not have visited that part of the ranch acreage in between those dates to discover the debris earlier.

4) No one can say with confidence that EBE’s were not already here flying around military bases in general to assess military capabilities. They didn’t have to travel light years.

5) As an alien…..wouldn’t you be curious seeing a balloon with a long train of shiny reflectors and equipment hanging from it lifting off a military base that you may have been observing or in passing by…

You stated…..” How much debris do you think was actually recovered? As far as I know only Marcel with a pick up truck recovered material.

1947 news reports also stated it was made up of rubber tinfoil, paper and sticks. No mysterious metal or any signs of propulsion.”…..

IF there was debris from a UFO crash….wouldn’t you think the military would have gone back with other cargo trucks for retrieval after Marcel used the smaller truck he was using? How else would they have gotten the debris staged and crated for air transport to Wright Pat..

News reports are for general consumption, behind the scenes military operations….not so much. I’m sure you’ve seen pictures of the balloon payloads that were being used in development and testing. There are all kinds of instruments, mechanical constructs, etc…I doubt simple small town and ranch folk of the day were kept abreast of military balloon payloads and the varying configurations to distinguish American know how, versus let’s say….extraterrestrial propulsion systems. Of course the surrounding population may have been given government notices to the effect, if they see or encounter large balloons with shiny metal things attached and on the ground....to contact them. Not revealed in the notice, is the details of what the shiny metals things and apparatuses are and what they are for.

For example …. Do you think the people of Roswell or Corona would have known what this is? Once, something like this is smashed to the ground in pieces…..versus what an alien propulsion system may look like?

👽🍺

No,they probably wouldn’t have known what this is, but so what? These payloads didn’t fly until the 1960s. They have no bearing on the Roswell event of 1947.

a reply to: 1947boomer
So then the caption under the picture showing 1945 through 1965 is in error? If so, how so?

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Travel for light years and then brought down by a balloon or lightning? It’s very unlikely.

I do think something crashed at Roswell. I don’t think it was from this Earth. I also don’t think it came from much beyond our solar system, but that’s just my take.

Unless our physics is wrong then I don’t see how travel between even ‘local’ star systems is at all practical if we are constrained to the speed of light. So if ET exists, and I think they do, then I don’t believe they are too far away and possibly far closer than we imagine.

Pretty good story of a town cop/ufo sighting in Socorro, NM. Interesting that there’s a Very Large Array (VLA) not far west of that town. Still operating. It’s so big they use rail road tracks to move the dish antennas around. This together is due west not too far from the Roswell crash site.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1

Are you saying no Mogul balloon has ever been lost or unretrievable by the Mogul team?

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A full Mogul balloon array with all equipment would have been recovered. They had 'return to:' tags attached with each flight. In between Mogul test/research/service flights had no tags and deemed expendable. That's what crashed.

Truth

a reply to: ARM1968

Before this thread gets off the rails….I did not start mentioning anything about coming from light years away only to get into a midair collision. My hypothesis inference was that the extraterrestrials were already here before the Roswell crash.

Just to setting this part straight about flying here from light years away as not my idea.

You know of course the game of telephone? What was originally stated gets twisted over time.

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