Question for those who are willing to ponder the possibility that we and the universe were created

The atoms that currently make up you (or I) existed before we were born. BEFORE we were born, the odds that these individual atoms would one day combine to make up you are astronomical. So astronomical as to be considered impossible. And yet, here you are. Just because something is extremely improbable doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Extremely improbable things happen every moment of every day.

One mistake here is in thinking there is a “correct sequence.” A correct sequence implies that evolution was shooting for a particular goal, and this is no more true than your atoms shooting for the goal of creating you. There is never a goal, there is only what results, and the result is always extremely improbable at some level.

And even if it were TRUE that the cell’s “specified complexity” required design, it still begs the question, “How did God’s complexity come to exist without a designer?”

a reply to: toktaylor

That's just evidence that the Schwartz conspired with the fundamental elements of existence to manifest the magical reflection of its own ego by projecting that self-image onto your configuration of molecular improbability. Or something like that.

originally posted by: toktaylor
“How did God’s complexity come to exist without a designer?”

God always existed. This means God had no beginning, and therefore no need to be created. This is why Christians refer to Him as "Unbegotten"

The atoms that currently make up you (or I) existed before we were born. BEFORE we were born, the odds that these individual atoms would one day combine to make up you are astronomical. So astronomical as to be considered impossible. And yet, here you are. Just because something is extremely improbable doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Extremely improbable things happen every moment of every day.

One mistake here is in thinking there is a “correct sequence.” A correct sequence implies that evolution was shooting for a particular goal, and this is no more true than your atoms shooting for the goal of creating you. There is never a goal, there is only what results, and the result is always extremely improbable at some level.

And even if it were TRUE that the cell’s “specified complexity” required design, it still begs the question,

Looking into the intricacies of biology, it has become apparently impossible for random functions to create these precise machine-like processes that perpetuate throughout the life of the organism. Name any function or part of any biological organism and I can go into detail regarding what I mean. Every facet is beyond the capabilities of being created by random chance.

originally posted by: cooperton
Yes.

Thanks, I didn't think you would actually destroy your own argument that easily.

a reply to: cooperton

In the scriptures it's generally agreed the beginning happened before the 7 days of creation. So who made the beginning? That just happened by itself and he happened to be there to take advantage of that situation? How is there a beginning before the universe existed? Where is he now? Where is this guy with his kingdom and coterie of loyal servants to educate us on his methods and his grand plan? Was the bible literally his best effort at marketing and customer satisfaction? Why haven't any of his previously collected souls of the dead returned to share their amazing and beautiful hereafter experiences so we can consider their wisdom and prepare accordingly? Why doesn't he have a Twitter or Snapchat account? Why is Earth literally the only example we have for life existing anywhere in the universe? Why do we have to depend on some old guy in Europe to translate god for us when a true divine architect should easily dismiss his human interpreter and take his place in the Vatican like a leader would? Why do we constantly just have to take your word for it and act like the bible is smarter than kindle and google?

That's just a handful of curious blanks in the general idea of your creation hypothesis. Not even digging into the whole "consciousness created matter" idea.

The only conclusion I can draw is that if this person/entity does exist in any shape or form they have hidden themselves from this world out of shame or fear or some need to forget what they did here and that makes me mistrustful of the whole idea and question the possibility they ever existed in the first place (which is an infinitesimal possibility given the evidence we have). By extension this conclusion reflects on those who adamantly cling to that possibility as believing that there can be no point to reality or to life without some manner of overlord to enforce that fundamental value by claiming our society as their property for unknown purposes.

originally posted by: peck420

Thanks, I didn't think you would actually destroy your own argument that easily.

Wow so vague it's like you have no idea how to defend yourself.

originally posted by: TzarChasmHere are a bunch of questions that I don't actually care what the answers are... so don't even waste your time answering them.

Lol if you cared to read the Bible without your eternal impudence you could learn the answer to all your questions. When you start asking the right questions the answers are there for you.

originally posted by: cooperton
Wow so vague it's like you have no idea how to defend yourself.

Your lack on scientific understanding is your problem. No one else's.

Again, thank you for destroying your own argument!

originally posted by: peck420

Your lack on scientific understanding is your problem. No one else's.

Again, thank you for destroying your own argument!

Wow still vague with no specifics, it's like you're afraid to discuss specifics with me!

a reply to: strongfp

Or let me put it in another way regarding the Sagan video (see my previous comment first). If someone says they don't want to duck a question, and then the first thing they do is duck the question, then spent 5 minutes continuing that M.O., only to claim that they've answered the question at the end, does that mean they didn't duck the question? Or could that be an indication or clue that maybe, just maybe, they were lying about their supposed desire not to want to duck the question? Perhaps in an effort not to lose the attention he's getting from either theists or atheists in the audience that might one day buy his books (because of taking a position either way*), hoping to hold on to both markets as his source of revenue (these people make money with getting lots of attention, more attention = more money, better careers, more invites to speak in front of an audience, for which they are often paid as well, but even when not paid, still helps with getting more attention again, marketing oneself to the public).

*: a love of, infatuation or fascination of or attraction to agnosticism being involved again. That always seem to impress the broadest market possible if you're in the business of selling yourself, your ideas/philosophies, and whatever you have to say (as something worth listening to). Personally, I think of people in this business not as "scientists", but charlatans and philosophers like Bishop Berkeley selling his philosophical 'tar-water' (mental poison) of immaterialism, as well as literal tar water, to "be drunk warm and in bed, as much and as often as the patient can bear." (quoting from Siris: A Chain of Philosophical Reflexions and Inquiries Concerning the Virtues of Tar Water, and Divers Other Subjects Connected Together and Arising One from Another, by Bishop Berkeley) An old edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica mentioned that drinking tar water (or tar-water) causes symptoms similar to carbolic acid poisoning. Hence me referring to poison there. In my opinion, these people have nothing of interest or value to say (and often it is harmful to one's mind and thinking in the sense depicted in Stargate Atlantis S3E3 with those listening to Lucius Lavin). Including Carl Sagan, even you and Tzarchasm are more interesting to me. They use their intelligence to scam the gullible who become completely infatuated by them and their sophisticated beguiling speech and intelligence, just like Lucius Lavin again.

Fly, Lucius, Fly (playlist link)

Do check out the preceding videos in that playlist concerning Stephen Hawkin, Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins, cause that is the type and reason that video and the subsequent 2 videos about Lucius Lavin are there in that playlist. And the way they captivate their audiences or markets attention and the resulting infatuation (or those buying their books such as Stephen Hawking's The Grand Design and Krauss' A Universe from Nothing) regarding whatever they have to say about "nothing" (how ironic), is a prime example of the Lucius Lavin-effect. Britney Spears' song lyrics are quite appropiate, it is toxic:

a reply to: whereislogic

None of them care. You can tell because none of them engage in regular conversation. They just resort to gaslighting and baseless dogmatic claims. They've already convinced their selves they are meaningless and don't care about the evidence that says otherwise.

a reply to: cooperton

What's meaningful about being appropriated by a cosmic overlord who seems to think you are lost and lonely and worthless without his direct control and wisdom?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: cooperton

What's meaningful about being appropriated by a cosmic overlord who seems to think you are lost and lonely and worthless without his direct control and wisdom?

Lol every comment you post proves you don't know anything worthwhile about theology or science. Every single post is a strawman regarding theological assertions. And your "science" is mostly just copy and paste jobs from sci-fi blogs or science books meant for children without ever supporting your claims with empirical evidence.

a reply to: cooperton

You didn't answer my question, you're just attacking my intellect. That's classically referred to as ad hominem and it's an evasion tactic. You want to try again?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: cooperton

You didn't answer my question, you're just attacking my intellect. That's classically referred to as ad hominem and it's an evasion tactic. You want to try again?

If you were genuinely curious it would be different, but you don't actually care about the answer. Every time I answer one of your poorly thought out questions, you just slide on to something else. Watch:

What's meaningful about being appropriated by a cosmic overlord who seems to think you are lost and lonely and worthless without his direct control and wisdom?

Aside from your perspective of this founder of the Universe being entirely incorrect, I think that the mere existence of such a Higher Intelligence implies a higher purpose for humanity rather than to unconsciously return to dirt and eternal non-awareness forever as supposed by the materialists. If there is a Higher Intelligence, which is apparently benevolent, as shown by the fact we exist and have the opportunity to understand and pursue knowledge, then this sort of benevolence has some sort of plan for us intelligent creations. To ignore this call is the ultimate ignorance, but to pursue it is the only enduring life purpose that often gets misconstrued in the rat race of Babylon.

Eagerly awaiting your strawman reply.

a reply to: cooperton

Aside from your perspective of this founder of the Universe being entirely incorrect, I think that the mere existence of such a Higher Intelligence implies a higher purpose for humanity rather than to unconsciously return to dirt and eternal non-awareness forever as supposed by the materialists.

I might have asked you previously, but if you could humor me, please describe this higher purpose.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

I might have asked you previously, but if you could humor me, please describe this higher purpose.

The development of our souls. Plato called it the ascent of the soul into the world of Forms. Christians call it Christ, the Jewish refer to it as Passover, the Hindus call it Moksha. The true nature of this transformation can be referred to, but the reference itself doesn't do justice for what it actually is. Just like the sign pointing to the top of the mountain is not itself the top of the mountain. It is a journey where you personally get taught by the Higher Intelligible Forces.

This is why I so adamantly oppose any notion of meaninglessness and nihilism because it stunts the forward direction of the soul and renders the person complacent in a dead-end philosophy.

a reply to: cooperton

What are these "higher intelligible forces" supposed to teach you, according to your understanding?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: cooperton

What are these "higher intelligible forces" supposed to teach you, according to your understanding?

I believe they are leading humans to a precipice, where the caterpillar transforms into a butterfly so to speak. It is a metaphysical transformation. "To be born again", but for real, not just by empty words. The irony is that the more I focus on this path, the more adept I become at dealing with the old Babylonian system (I hope that shortcut phrase resonates with you). It is similar to Jesus's temptations, in which the more he refuses to be distracted by material things, the more abundantly he is offered material prowess. It's as though desire itself implies lack and therefore deters, whereas independence attracts prosperity.

A Son ideally becomes like His Dad, especially if that Dad is perfect. The Son receives the inheritance (birthright) so long as He proves to be able to handle it. This is what these Forces, known as the Christ, are helping to guide God's Children towards. The things I have witnessed are too unbelievable so I don't share them, but if my testimony counts as anything then know that there is an infinitude of conscious development and bliss pre-set for the person who diligently seeks the truth without bias.

a reply to: cooperton

Okay so my next ignorant question is: why hasn't anyone returned from completing this journey and educated society about the hereafter? By now there should be hundreds of willing teachers who have gathered tools and materials to illustrate beyond a doubt what you have described but it remains little more than folklore and mysticism that fails to withstand scrutiny from our most dependable methods of inquiry. It's impossible to bury or obscure something of that magnitude given our technology should be parlor tricks compared to cosmic wizardry like what you describe. So where is everyone who reached this "precipice" and succeeded in their transformation? And why are they so quiet?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: cooperton

Okay so my next ignorant question is: why hasn't anyone returned from completing this journey and educated society about the hereafter? By now there should be hundreds of willing teachers who have gathered tools and materials to illustrate beyond a doubt what you have described but it remains little more than folklore and mysticism that fails to withstand scrutiny from our most dependable methods of inquiry. It's impossible to bury or obscure something of that magnitude given our technology should be parlor tricks compared to cosmic wizardry like what you describe. So where is everyone who reached this "precipice" and succeeded in their transformation? And why are they so quiet?

Yeah that is the next logical question. Jesus was the first. Came and showed us the way, how to be born again, explaining that the New Kingdom is within reach, etc. People do come back to help teach people, they're called Bhoddisattvas. Paul was a notable Bhoddisattva (Philippians 1:23-24). Also notable in 1 John 1:1-4. Peter refers to it as the day of 1000 years. Etc, etc.

Khalil Gibran is another notable in his book the Prophet. The Enlightenment Part 0 is another example.

The entirety of Dante's epic, and Homer's Odyssey is about this Homecoming... what was called "Birthright" by the Jewish people. Many great literary works are referring to this transformation. Even the Matrix is an attempt to describe this escape from the world of Illusion into the True Kingdom.

The thing is, when people come back to try to teach society, society always responds with persecution. See Plato's cave allegory. The reason is because this world is run by the anti-Christ (anti-Christ simply means that force which is preventing people from fulfilling their transformation into a Christened being). This world is meant as a sort of tutorial for developing souls. Or as Plato calls it, a receptacle for people to transition into the world of Form. This is where the Jews aspired to Passover into.

It's absolutely everywhere in inspired literature