NEWS: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers

Originally posted by Skibum

I'm sure if this happens we'll be hearing of Teacher vs. Student gunbattles in no time.

So you prefer a psychotic student to be able to shoot as many others as he can. Only to stop we he decides to do so himself.

You have an answer for everything don't you ... well you know what more people would have died in the crossfire in this latest shooting. Oh yeah I forget, they are just collateral damage. *sigh* The Fanatics answer to every problem, ARM EVERYONE! Who cares about the consequences, who cares about the murder rate which keeps climbing. Who cares about the fact that countries with Gun Control laws have a much lower murder rate. Who cares Right? You aren't in the Funeral business are you?

Wait... isn't the problem children with guns?

So is the NRA conceeding that keeping guns from kids (and why don't we just call it gun control) is such an insurmountable problem that the only solution--and a drastic one, I might add--is to arm teachers so they can shoot children if need be?

This is like trying to cure heart disease with cancer. Why not solve the real problem?

well you know what more people would have died in the crossfire in this latest shooting.

You can only assume that based on your kneejerk reaction tactics. If the security guards had been armed, Instead of one being killed and the other running away, they could have stopped him at the entrance to the school. If the teacher in the classroom had had a weapon, he could have had a chance to limit the number of students killed in the classroom. Instead all they were able to do was sit there and pee their pants as the gunman was able to leisurely pick and kill whomever he wanted.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Arming teachers. WTF!?! You people who actually support this make me sick! Do you have any idea what the murder stats are for Nations with a "Rigth to Bear Arms" compared to a nation that does not have that "right". Gimme a break. I'm sure if this happens we'll be hearing of Teacher vs. Student gunbattles in no time.

What's next, Legalize Duels again ...........

[edit on 26-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Dear Sardion2000,

Doing my best Chicken Little impression:

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

that is the same mentality that has said, in each state that allows concealed carry, that there would be massive shoot outs in the streets, stores, schools churches, bars, retirement homes, restaraunts, and neighborhoods.

And interestingly ... It hasn't happened yet!

Paren't don't train or raise their kids anymore. And I think that enough of them are indifferent enough to the point that the children grow into psychotic kids with guns (Sounds like a movie title, eh?) . Worse, they turn into people with real problems, no sign of solution, no personal strength to come up with an answer other than kill myself in a most messy way and take a few innocents with me.

I am well past the raising children age, but when I was raising them I was doing it well enough, by being there and being responsible, so that the kids grew up well rounded enough to hold jobs and make positive contributions to society.

Someone, somewhere, has to take ultimate responsibility for the actions of people in our society. If it is not for the parents of the children who carry guns and see no distinction between life in the "dead lane" and life in general, then perhaps it is time, in fact to arm the teachers and train them. I think that the parents of kids like the ones at Columbine and the one last week in Minnesota, ought to ultimately be made responsible for the actions of their children.

I have always believed that behavior can not be legislated, per se, but if we need to extend the power of life and death to an anonymous teacher, custodean, security guard, school cop, to ensure that YOUR little Johnny or little Joanie doesn't come into school carrying an illegal firearm, because you don't care enough to be a parent, then frankly .... The Hell with it. Let's do it. And the cost of the effort is on your head if it's your kid who goes down in a hail of bullets.

Basically, someone has to be responsible. And it might as well be the most irresponsible of all. The indiiferent, idiot parents, who gave more thought to the car they were going buy than the decision to use contraception, because the didn't have enough common parenting senses to pound crap in a rat hole!



If you are going to take some kind of weepy heart, short sighted, knee jerk stance about arming teachers or banning guns, at least stop long enough to think about it before you prove to the world that you are eaten up with a case of the "Galloping DumaZZ"! Help come up with a solution that makes sense and don't get all indignant, scream about guns and dueling like you know what the Hell you're talking about, and then run off.

Be a part of the solution and not an individual problem! Jeez!!!!

Security Guards are not teachers. Arm them with Tasers if you must. Teachers should stay teachers not be turned into Prison Guards.

I live in Canada which has a murder rate 5 times lower then your vaunted United States. Load your head before you shoot your mouth... who's knee jerking now

[edit on 26-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by sardion2000
Security Guards are not teachers. Arm them with Tasers if you must. Teachers should stay teachers not be turned into Prison Guards.

I live in Canada which has a murder rate 5 times lower then your vaunted United States. Load your head before you shoot your mouth... who's knee jerking now

[edit on 26-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Thats good tasers against guns.

Whos knee jerking now? You.

Originally posted by Skibum

What's next, Legalize Duels again ...........

If two consenting adults wanted to duel, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Ah so you DO want to return the USA to the Wild West days. ARM EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE. Yeah right Keep knee-jerking there it looks good on you.

Ah so you DO want to return the USA to the Wild West days. ARM EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE. Yeah right Keep knee-jerking there it looks good on you.

It would be better than today, Our murder rate then was a quarter of what it is now.

Year Homicide rate
1900 1.2
1901 1.2
1902 1.2
1903 1.1
1904 1.3


1997 7.4
1998 6.8
1999 6.2
2000 6.1

Actually less than a quarter.


[edit on 26/3/05 by Skibum]

The wild west was not the free for all you think it is due to Hollywood.
Anyway its better than just having armed criminals.

[edit on 26/3/05 by Skibum]

[edit on 26/3/05 by Skibum]

I can just picture students going to school in a Bradley in 2050 I think its impossible to ban guns from the American public, they love them too much, but I don't think that the NRA turning this bad publicity into an oppertunity for mucho sales in another armsrace is the way to go....

Maybe they should get REALLY serious or about long range (200 feet detectable) rfid tags casted in guns or even personalized sci-fi chipguns.

Some people will argue that non-tagged guns could be bought on the black market, but still it imposes another hurdle for your disturbed kid, the gun from dads drawer don't work for him and he would have to cough up a lot of money to buy one on the black market....

Bringing 100 or more guns into every school in America by arming teachers has got to be among the worst ideas I've ever heard.

1. The teacher can not have an adversarial relationship with students. What is the teacher going to do- draw on any student that gets within double-arms distance of them? Because if not, it's nothing doing to accost your teacher (often a little old lady) and get the gun.

2. Teachers aren't properly trained and don't have the authority to use deadly force. We are just asking to have somebody killed unjustly- maybe even an innocent bystander. Because teachers, believe it or not, aren't all smart, or even stable for that matter.
Do you want teachers drawing guns in class everything two students get into a shoving match? How many times will that have to happen before somebody pulls the trigger by accident and kills an innocent kid?

In about 6 years I'm going to have a nephew in kindergarten. If that kid's teacher is packing, me and that teacher are going to have words. I've got remarkably little to do with my time- I will show up at the school when I get off work and frisk the teacher.

Things are going to get out of hand one of these days- they're going to keep pushing us, somethings going to go wrong, and average people are going to have to make a choice to either be trampled over by this sort of stupidity, or they'll have to fight back.
If they get the guns and a student gets shot, I think i's only appropriate that the PTA take up arms and lynch the teacher responsible in public.

Skibum, since when was the Wild West days considered to be at the Turn of the Century? You're missing about 100 years of data(which would not be too reliable either)

You also remember the Salem Witch Trials sure it has nothing to do with guns but I can see a Mob rules scenario as very plausible under ther NRA's plan. Remember who funds them, the Gun companies. As silenus said seems a bit opportunistic to me.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Bringing 100 or more guns into every school in America by arming teachers has got to be among the worst ideas I've ever heard.

1. The teacher can not have an adversarial relationship with students. What is the teacher going to do- draw on any student that gets within double-arms distance of them? Because if not, it's nothing doing to accost your teacher (often a little old lady) and get the gun.

Having a weapon does not change the relationship. It simply gives them them a way to defend themselves and the students from these pshychotic murderers.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
2. Teachers aren't properly trained and don't have the authority to use deadly force. We are just asking to have somebody killed unjustly- maybe even an innocent bystander. Because teachers, believe it or not, aren't all smart, or even stable for that matter.
Do you want teachers drawing guns in class everything two students get into a shoving match? How many times will that have to happen before somebody pulls the trigger by accident and kills an innocent kid?

They do have the authority to use deadly force when countered with deadly force just as every citizen does. Just because they are teachers does not mean they lose that. You don't break up a fight with a gun either, you use it against people who are trying to kill you or others.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
In about 6 years I'm going to have a nephew in kindergarten. If that kid's teacher is packing, me and that teacher are going to have words. I've got remarkably little to do with my time- I will show up at the school when I get off work and frisk the teacher.

If it is legal for that teacher to carry, you will probably be arrested for battery in that case. You don't have the authority to do that.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Things are going to get out of hand one of these days- they're going to keep pushing us, somethings going to go wrong, and average people are going to have to make a choice to either be trampled over by this sort of stupidity, or they'll have to fight back.
If they get the guns and a student gets shot, I think i's only appropriate that the PTA take up arms and lynch the teacher responsible in public.

Well that would be taking it a bit far, but how bout holding them accountable to existing laws, instead of taking the law into your own hands unnecessarily. Kind of hypocritical to be so against guns, and then advocate an armed lynch mob and vigilante justice.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Skibum, since when was the Wild West days considered to be at the Turn of the Century? You're missing about 100 years of data(which would not be too reliable either)

You also remember the Salem Witch Trials sure it has nothing to do with guns but I can see a Mob rules scenario as very plausible under ther NRA's plan. Remember who funds them, the Gun companies. As silenus said seems a bit opportunistic to me.

You show your lack of knowledge of the wild west. I may be a few years off, but it was still active at the turn of the century. Most of what you know about it is from after the civil war through the early 1900's.

Having a weapon does not change the relationship. It simply gives them them a way to defend themselves and the students from these pshychotic murderers.

Really what do you base that on? You a child Psychologist?

You show your lack of knowledge of the wild west. I may be a few years off, but it was still active at the turn of the century. Most of what you know about it is from after the civil war through the early 1900's.

That you very much for telling me what I know and what I do not know

[edit on 26-3-2005 by sardion2000]

Really what do you base that on? You a child Psychologist?

No. I based it on the fact that people who lawfully carry weapons are not the gunslinging fools you lefties like to make them out to be.
You may be able to come up with a few cases to make it look like it, but overall it just doesn't happen that way.

That you very much for telling me what I know and what I do not know

You are welcome.

Canada which has a murder rate 5 times lower then your vaunted United States

But according to this, and this, the United States has almost 10 times the population of Canada, therefore the number would probably match up a bit. Also, the population around 1900 was only about 3.6 million, or almost about 80-100 times less our current population. You would figure with that kind of population boom that our murder rate would be alot higher now with the freedom to own guns. Hell we didn't even have all our states back in 1900. Anyways I have listed the facts and hyperlinked the sources, which I feel are rather reliable.

Anyways if anyone in school should be armed, it would have to be administration and the school resource officers. The officers are usually part of the local PD anyways so I feel they have any right, hell my old high school our resource officers carried guns. The administrators weapons should be kept locked in the office, and the administrators who have access to them should be trained and then licensed as a requirement to continue in the system. Like that one chick in Alien vs Predator said, Guns are like a condom, better to have one and not need it, then to need it and not have one.

Originally posted by Skibum

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Bringing 100 or more guns into every school in America by arming teachers has got to be among the worst ideas I've ever heard.

1. The teacher can not have an adversarial relationship with students. What is the teacher going to do- draw on any student that gets within double-arms distance of them? Because if not, it's nothing doing to accost your teacher (often a little old lady) and get the gun.

Having a weapon does not change the relationship. It simply gives them them a way to defend themselves and the students from these pshychotic murderers.

It does change the relationship. The teacher now has to be sure that some dumb kid can't snatch the weapon from them, when there is a distrubance the teacher is evaluating the appropriateness of bringing the weapon into play, and the kids know this. Put yourself in the shoes of an outcast teenager who doesn't get along well with his classmates. I've been there. You know that your teacher has wondered if they're ever going to have to shoot you.
So what is supposed to happen? As a teacher, should I draw down on a kid whenever he gets within arms reach of me because I can't have him making a play for that gun? As a student, should I go up to the teachers desk every morning and assume the position to show him that he doesn't have to pull his gun on me if I raise my voice over something?

The other thing to consider is that people who shoot up their schools are not right in the head. How do you know that these people won't see it as more sporting or exciting that way? Shouldn't the NRA at least talk to a shrink about the implications of deadly weapons around school children before they determine that this will make schools safer?

Originally posted by The Vagabond
2. Teachers aren't properly trained and don't have the authority to use deadly force. We are just asking to have somebody killed unjustly- maybe even an innocent bystander. Because teachers, believe it or not, aren't all smart, or even stable for that matter.
Do you want teachers drawing guns in class everything two students get into a shoving match? How many times will that have to happen before somebody pulls the trigger by accident and kills an innocent kid?

They do have the authority to use deadly force when countered with deadly force just as every citizen does. Just because they are teachers does not mean they lose that. You don't break up a fight with a gun either, you use it against people who are trying to kill you or others.

We recently had an ATS story about a kindergarten teacher calling the police on a 5 year old for throwing a fit. I'll bet you fifty bucks that within the first year of teachers being allowed to carry guns (if by some miracle it were allowed) we would have a news story about a kid being held at gunpoint for getting into a simple first fight, or maybe even just an arguement with the teacher.
Then let me repeat, teachers are not adequately trained to use deadly force. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, however what happens when you miss and kill somebody else? You're liable. It's not a good idea to put a gun in untrained hands in a room full of children. When you've got 30-40 childen lined up in tight rows and you take a shot at one, you can just about bet on hitting somebody, even if its not the target.

My highschool had two campus resource officers on loan from the police department, and 8 unarmed guards. It was a good sound system. No distruptions of the classroom, no worries about a kid getting teachers guns, and all the guns were in professional hands, yet if there had been a gunshot anywhere in the school, two armed men would have been on scene with 2 or 3 minutes. Not a bad system at all.

I can already hear the NRA saying "well that kid is gonna kill his whole class in 120 seconds". BULL. He'll get one magazine off, then that classroom is gonna be empty and the doors of the neighboring classrooms are going to be locked. Ever notice that when a shooter stocks through the school for over an hour he still only gets under a dozen kills? So the system of one or two cops on campus is going to reduce the number of people killed on average DRAMATICALLY. Arming teachers on the other hand will double the number of shots fired in the crowded room at the beginning, resulting in more casualties on average.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
In about 6 years I'm going to have a nephew in kindergarten. If that kid's teacher is packing, me and that teacher are going to have words. I've got remarkably little to do with my time- I will show up at the school when I get off work and frisk the teacher.

If it is legal for that teacher to carry, you will probably be arrested for battery in that case. You don't have the authority to do that.

Not probably- definately, because if I found a gun on that teacher I'd take it away from him and batter him with it.
I've got priorities. The safety and good treatment of my family rates somewhere just below getting into heaven and is in a dead heat with breathing. Being in compliance with the laws that I consider to be mistakes rates somewhere just below getting to work on time, and just above taking out the garbage on trash day.
I know, it's a bunch of silly tough talk, but let's be objective for a moment- if you feel that a perfectly legal activity is going to be bad for children in your family, are you going to let it happen because it's legal. Suppose you're walking down the street and somebody rattles off a string of the most apalling obcenities and slurs imaginable at your kid- how long has that person got to live, not counting the split second it takes for his lifeless corpse to stop twitching? 5 seconds, maybe 10 if he's a big guy? It's not that I walk around looking for reasons to screw with people, least of all teachers, but some things are unacceptable. An oft forgotten implication of "unacceptable" is that it will not be accepted, therefore one may infer that it will be opposed. I find guns in the classroom unacceptable.

Well that would be taking it a bit far, but how bout holding them accountable to existing laws, instead of taking the law into your own hands unnecessarily. Kind of hypocritical to be so against guns, and then advocate an armed lynch mob and vigilante justice.

Morally speaking, you're exactly right. In more practical terms, if I'm thinking about making an example and wanting to create a stir that will hopefully result in the banning of weapons in the classroom or perhaps just deter teachers from excercising that right- I think a horrifying and unruly spectacle culminating in the sudden death of the perpetrator would be far more effective than a long desensitizing circus-trial that results in a monetary award and somebody going to jail.


Forgive me if I seem like I've got bit of an immature, violent, or revolutionary way of seeing things, but I see a disconnect between the academic and the practical. At a certain point, you have a belief, you have the power to act, so you act. I'd like to think that at a certain point the law, the second ammendment, the democratic process and all of that sort of break down in deferrence to what's good for the common citizen, and that if the democratically established law wont stand in the way of something bad happening to people that at the very least those same forces wont stand in the way of the people doing something about it. It's not just that I enjoy threatening to commit violence- if anything I dislike it for the reason that it seems so hollow online.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Security Guards are not teachers. Arm them with Tasers if you must. Teachers should stay teachers not be turned into Prison Guards.

I live in Canada which has a murder rate 5 times lower then your vaunted United States. Load your head before you shoot your mouth... who's knee jerking now

[edit on 26-3-2005 by sardion2000]

So let's see ... You are a leftist leaning, let the government respond to my every demand, so I don't have to think for myself sort ... And you live in a country whose national bird is the maple leaf.... And lessee.... That means that you don't even live in the good old US of A.... Hmmm .... But you have all the answers about how we should live our lives down here .... OH, and not allowed to not think you are God's gift to political issues ... OK.... Gee, now if I could only get you to sit down and think about an intelligent solution to problems where children are killing children and no one really seems interested in useful solutions that work for everyone.

Well pal, ya got me. I am just simply in awe.

BTW... I was just kidding about the maple leaf bird thing. That was unkind and I really was just joking. I have a large number of Canadian friends, and do enjoy your country.

Originally posted by sigung86
OK.... Gee, now if I could only get you to sit down and think about an intelligent solution to problems where children are killing children and no one really seems interested in useful solutions that work for everyone.

You want a simple solution? Ban guns.

It's not popular, it might against the amendment, it might infrings on your rights, and heck i might not even support it.

But you did ask for a simple solution.