This is the DATA, And this is alarming

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
If the vaccinated can become asymptomatic super spreaders like Mary Mallon; Typhoid Mary, then the vaccinations would accelerate the spread of the virus. Asymptomatic spreaders, don't feel sick, don't self isolate and continue to spread the disease.

How can that work with mRNA vaxes? There is no covid virus involved, dead or alive.

Easy. They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

Similarly to those that are unvaxed but have asymptomatic covid?

Possibly, but since the vaccine only reduces symptoms, the vaccinated would be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, than unvaccinated. Since their symptoms are being reduced after all, but not necessarily their ability to infect.

I dont think the goal was to eliminate all covid infections. The goal is to reduce the severity so that our hospitals and medical infrastructure isnt overwhelmed due to the highly contagious virus burning thru the population.

Creating more asymptomatic carriers would be counter intuitive to that goal then.

Asymptomatic carriers dont need hospitalization! Creating many less severe infections is the goal!

How about we do the best we can with a rapidly mutating highly contagious virus and no tried and true treatment to cover something largely unknown and unnatural?

There is also a relationship between viral load and contagiousness. Less load means less virus is shedding from the person.

But lets complain that its not a perfect world.

Dont want the vax, dont take it.

I am not complaining. You seem to be. I don't and I am not.

And as far as viral load their is already studies showing that the vaccinated can have as high a viral load as unvaccinated, so I am not sure what your point about viral load is.

First of all, show me one complaint Ive made. I complain against doom porn, directed toward me for taking the vax. Thats it.

And now youve once again moved the goal posts to the total elimination of the covid virus, and if you cant have that you want nothing.

Its true that vaxed can have a severe case of covid. Some are hospitalized, and have high viral load.

The goal is to reduce the number of such cases. Less severe is good. Why is this hard to understand?

You seem to be confused. I never said anything about doomporn or you being vaccinated. The only thing I said is i can see why infections would be increasing in Israel with the vaccine possibly creating asymptomatic carriers. You didn't seem to like me saying that for some reason. I don't know why.

Then you started trying to have a go at me. You are the only one that kept moving goal posts; fist it wasn't possible, because their is no virus in the vaccine, then it was there are asymptomatic carriers among the unvaccinated, then it was it was only designed to stop hospitalizations, etc. I have only been saying what i have been saying from the beginning.

I didnt say you directed doom porn toward me, but I clarified that its the only complaint I have about this covid vaccine debate. I neither encourage or discourage others and have ALWAYS said, dont want the vax dont take it. I dont agree with mandates of any kind. Still Im attacked constantly for taking the vax, as if its anybodies business but my own.

It isnt possible that the vaccine is GIVING COVID TO PEOPLE to make them spread it to others. In fact, if the case of covid that they came down with in spite of the vax is less severe and less symptomatic, does not make the vaccinated MORE DANGEROUS to YOU, it makes it less. My need for a hospital bed may be less likely, therefore more available to you! This is my only position. No posts moved. Dont want the vax, dont take it.

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are making all kinds of assumptions; creating strawmen, from what I said and then are attacking your own assumptions, as if I said them.

I never said the vaccine gives you covid. That was your first assumption. I never said the vaccinated were "more dangerous" than the unvaccinated. I never mentioned hospitalization or death. Those all strawmen you have created.

I get it, you have been attacked on this forum by others and are now in a state of hyper vigilance; aka paranoia. I personally didn't attack you, just as I never asserted any of the assumptions you made about what I said.

I will say it I still stand by that statement. You don't have to agree or even like my opinion. If you want to refute that opinion, then do so, but do so honestly, not by making assumptions and putting words I never said, into my mouth. Those are just flawed and weak discussion and debate tactics.

No, I have simply counter argued your statement. Lets break it down since you want to rewrite what was said and cant follow the debate.

"I can see why the infection rates are exploding in Israel, when the vaccines can possibly be creating asymptomatic carriers, like typhoid mary."

This statement implies the vax is causing cases. I pointed out thats not possible.

You countered with “ They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

which I pointed out that viral load comes into play. You seem to still be leaning on your premise that thevax CAUSED the infection, when that is not true, as you acknowledge by saying you didnt say that, yet you still imply that here. So if the vax didnt cause an increase in cases, and possibly reduce the contagiousness by reducing the severity, you would not see what you claim to see in the data in Isreal. You’ve lost the plot!

(BTW me countering your arg isnt moving a goal post, for clarification.)

Typhoid fever is caused by a bacteria, not a virus. Different lifeform. Apples and Oranges.

a reply to: BrujaRebooted

No my statement didn't imply it, you assumed it. I replied what I replied to clarify my statement and end your erroneous interpretation of what I said. Even despite refuting that assumption repeatedly, you still continue with your erroneous assumption of what I said.

And using multiple changing counter arguments to argue against a claim I never made, but you assumed, is moving the goal posts as well as creating strawmen to attack.

Just like typhoid being a bacteria and not a virus is an irrelevant factoid, because both viruses and bacteria can create asymptomatic carriers. If one is immune to the symptoms and effects of a virus, but still able to transmit it, they by definition are an asymptomatic carrier.

But go ahead and continue with your assumptions, even when I have clarified that I never said or remotely implied them.

And yes, you can have asymptomatic carriers fueling more infections without the vaccine giving people covid. I don't know why anyone would assume the vaccine has to give you covid, because of that. Just to further clarify.

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
If the vaccinated can become asymptomatic super spreaders like Mary Mallon; Typhoid Mary, then the vaccinations would accelerate the spread of the virus. Asymptomatic spreaders, don't feel sick, don't self isolate and continue to spread the disease.

How can that work with mRNA vaxes? There is no covid virus involved, dead or alive.

Easy. They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

Similarly to those that are unvaxed but have asymptomatic covid?

Possibly, but since the vaccine only reduces symptoms, the vaccinated would be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, than unvaccinated. Since their symptoms are being reduced after all, but not necessarily their ability to infect.

I dont think the goal was to eliminate all covid infections. The goal is to reduce the severity so that our hospitals and medical infrastructure isnt overwhelmed due to the highly contagious virus burning thru the population.

Creating more asymptomatic carriers would be counter intuitive to that goal then.

Here again you said what you now say you never said. “Create .. carriers”. i.e. covid infections. The “more asymptomatic” part, if even relevant, can only reduce contagion, therefore fewer cases of covid overall, not more.

So misinterpretting the Israeli data is spreading doom porn. ‘vax is causing alarming increase’ hair on fire. You hope that this is the case so you can be proven right.

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
If the vaccinated can become asymptomatic super spreaders like Mary Mallon; Typhoid Mary, then the vaccinations would accelerate the spread of the virus. Asymptomatic spreaders, don't feel sick, don't self isolate and continue to spread the disease.

How can that work with mRNA vaxes? There is no covid virus involved, dead or alive.

Easy. They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

Similarly to those that are unvaxed but have asymptomatic covid?

Possibly, but since the vaccine only reduces symptoms, the vaccinated would be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, than unvaccinated. Since their symptoms are being reduced after all, but not necessarily their ability to infect.

I dont think the goal was to eliminate all covid infections. The goal is to reduce the severity so that our hospitals and medical infrastructure isnt overwhelmed due to the highly contagious virus burning thru the population.

Creating more asymptomatic carriers would be counter intuitive to that goal then.

Here again you said what you now say you never said. “Create .. carriers”. i.e. covid infections. The “more asymptomatic” part, if even relevant, can only reduce contagion, therefore fewer cases of covid overall, not more.

So misinterpretting the Israeli data is spreading doom porn. ‘vax is causing alarming increase’ hair on fire. You hope that this is the case so you can be proven right.

Yes it can create carriers. Because it can still allow people to contract covid and since the viral loads in the vaccinated can be as high in the unvaccinated and by cdc and others own admission they can still spread it, it can create asymptomatic carriers, spreading infection to others. Your only valid rebuttal in the whole discussion was there are unvaccinated asymptomatic carriers as well. And to that, how does creating more asymptomatic carriers not create more infections?

Researchers from the University of Oxford found the viral load reduction can be wiped out by the Delta variant which is now dominant in the UK.

While evidence demonstrates that vaccines significantly reduce hospitalisations and deaths, scientists now believe those infected by the Delta variant can still harbour similar levels of virus to those who are unvaccinated.

Previous research found that double jabbed people with the Alpha variant had far lower viral loads than un-vaccinated people, stoking hopes that the virus would spread less the more people were vaccinated.

However this has been thrown into doubt and raises questions about vaccine passports and recent changes to the NHS app, which work on the assumption that double-jabbed people are less likely to spread the virus.

www.msn.com...

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
they by definition are an asymptomatic carrier.

So the R0 factor for COV-2 is greater than a normal flu because people are infectious longer than the typically flu. This is mainly because people are carrying a number of flu immune history already so they don't have a serious reaction with the flu and have a shorter period were they are able to infect others. Using both vaccine ands natural immunization will put COV-2 in the same bucket as a common flu in the future, so assuming asymptomatic carriers are the driving force to increased infections doesn't happen with the normal flu and so really will not with COV-2.

Think about a person infectious for weeks compared to a few days... That is what we been seeing comparing COV-2 to the common flu and the vaccine and natural immunization will do the same to COV-2 to greatly reduce the period a person can infect.

On July 27th, CDC updated its guidance for fully vaccinated people, recommending that everyone wear a mask in indoor public settings in areas of substantial and high transmission, regardless of vaccination status. This decision was made with the data and science available to CDC at the time, including a valuable public health partnership resulting in rapid receipt and review of unpublished data.

Today, some of those data were published in CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), demonstrating that Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus. This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation. The masking recommendation was updated to ensure the vaccinated public would not unknowingly transmit virus to others, including their unvaccinated or immunocompromised loved ones.

www.cdc.gov...

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
If the vaccinated can become asymptomatic super spreaders like Mary Mallon; Typhoid Mary, then the vaccinations would accelerate the spread of the virus. Asymptomatic spreaders, don't feel sick, don't self isolate and continue to spread the disease.

How can that work with mRNA vaxes? There is no covid virus involved, dead or alive.

Easy. They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

Similarly to those that are unvaxed but have asymptomatic covid?

Possibly, but since the vaccine only reduces symptoms, the vaccinated would be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, than unvaccinated. Since their symptoms are being reduced after all, but not necessarily their ability to infect.

I dont think the goal was to eliminate all covid infections. The goal is to reduce the severity so that our hospitals and medical infrastructure isnt overwhelmed due to the highly contagious virus burning thru the population.

Creating more asymptomatic carriers would be counter intuitive to that goal then.

Here again you said what you now say you never said. “Create .. carriers”. i.e. covid infections. The “more asymptomatic” part, if even relevant, can only reduce contagion, therefore fewer cases of covid overall, not more.

So misinterpretting the Israeli data is spreading doom porn. ‘vax is causing alarming increase’ hair on fire. You hope that this is the case so you can be proven right.

Yes it can create carriers. Because it can still allow people to contract covid and since the viral loads in the vaccinated can be as high in the unvaccinated and by cdc and others own admission they can still spread it, it can create asymptomatic carriers, spreading infection to others. Your only valid rebuttal in the whole discussion was there are unvaccinated asymptomatic carriers as well. And to that, how does creating more asymptomatic carriers not create more infections?

Your alarm with the Isreali data falls apart completely without an INCREASE in the number of covid infections being directly caused by the vaccine, which you keep saying you havent said, but indeed you have. Multiple times.

Please explain HOW you believe vaccinating people can cause more cases of covid infection?

a reply to: MDDoxs

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originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
If the vaccinated can become asymptomatic super spreaders like Mary Mallon; Typhoid Mary, then the vaccinations would accelerate the spread of the virus. Asymptomatic spreaders, don't feel sick, don't self isolate and continue to spread the disease.

How can that work with mRNA vaxes? There is no covid virus involved, dead or alive.

Easy. They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

Similarly to those that are unvaxed but have asymptomatic covid?

Possibly, but since the vaccine only reduces symptoms, the vaccinated would be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, than unvaccinated. Since their symptoms are being reduced after all, but not necessarily their ability to infect.

I dont think the goal was to eliminate all covid infections. The goal is to reduce the severity so that our hospitals and medical infrastructure isnt overwhelmed due to the highly contagious virus burning thru the population.

Creating more asymptomatic carriers would be counter intuitive to that goal then.

Here again you said what you now say you never said. “Create .. carriers”. i.e. covid infections. The “more asymptomatic” part, if even relevant, can only reduce contagion, therefore fewer cases of covid overall, not more.

So misinterpretting the Israeli data is spreading doom porn. ‘vax is causing alarming increase’ hair on fire. You hope that this is the case so you can be proven right.

Yes it can create carriers. Because it can still allow people to contract covid and since the viral loads in the vaccinated can be as high in the unvaccinated and by cdc and others own admission they can still spread it, it can create asymptomatic carriers, spreading infection to others. Your only valid rebuttal in the whole discussion was there are unvaccinated asymptomatic carriers as well. And to that, how does creating more asymptomatic carriers not create more infections?

Your alarm with the Isreali data falls apart completely without an INCREASE in the number of covid infections being directly caused by the vaccine, which you keep saying you havent said, but indeed you have. Multiple times.

Please explain HOW you believe vaccinating people can cause more cases of covid infection?

If your symptoms have been reduced, but not your ability to infect, you might not even know to get tested or self isolated. Even if the window is shorter an asymptomatic carrier would more than likely be in contact with more people than a symptomatic carrier that gets tested and self isolates.

I am still waiting for your opinion on why the numbers are exploding, since you have already assumed it can not be due to the vaccines reducing symptoms, without reducing infection.

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: BrujaRebooted

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
If the vaccinated can become asymptomatic super spreaders like Mary Mallon; Typhoid Mary, then the vaccinations would accelerate the spread of the virus. Asymptomatic spreaders, don't feel sick, don't self isolate and continue to spread the disease.

How can that work with mRNA vaxes? There is no covid virus involved, dead or alive.

Easy. They get infected with covid and their symptoms are reduced by the vaccine, but they still spread it like an asymptomatic carrier, which is what mary mallon was for typhoid. It's not really that hard to understand.

Similarly to those that are unvaxed but have asymptomatic covid?

Possibly, but since the vaccine only reduces symptoms, the vaccinated would be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, than unvaccinated. Since their symptoms are being reduced after all, but not necessarily their ability to infect.

I dont think the goal was to eliminate all covid infections. The goal is to reduce the severity so that our hospitals and medical infrastructure isnt overwhelmed due to the highly contagious virus burning thru the population.

Creating more asymptomatic carriers would be counter intuitive to that goal then.

Here again you said what you now say you never said. “Create .. carriers”. i.e. covid infections. The “more asymptomatic” part, if even relevant, can only reduce contagion, therefore fewer cases of covid overall, not more.

So misinterpretting the Israeli data is spreading doom porn. ‘vax is causing alarming increase’ hair on fire. You hope that this is the case so you can be proven right.

Yes it can create carriers. Because it can still allow people to contract covid and since the viral loads in the vaccinated can be as high in the unvaccinated and by cdc and others own admission they can still spread it, it can create asymptomatic carriers, spreading infection to others. Your only valid rebuttal in the whole discussion was there are unvaccinated asymptomatic carriers as well. And to that, how does creating more asymptomatic carriers not create more infections?

Your alarm with the Isreali data falls apart completely without an INCREASE in the number of covid infections being directly caused by the vaccine, which you keep saying you havent said, but indeed you have. Multiple times.

Please explain HOW you believe vaccinating people can cause more cases of covid infection?

If your symptoms have been reduced, but not your ability to infect, you might not even know to get tested or self isolated. Even if the window is shorter an asymptomatic carrier would more than likely be in contact with more people than a symptomatic carrier that gets tested and self isolates.

I am still waiting for your opinion on why the numbers are exploding, since you have already assumed it can not be due to the vaccines reducing symptoms, without reducing infection.

The asymptomatic vaxed but infected, and asymptomatic unvaxed but infected have the same issue. More asymptomatic cases is less load on medical infrastructure, and contributes either way to herd immunity. Testing is still happening on a large scale, and masks, distancing, all that…..

As to what is causing a spike in the data? Mutations. Like the annual flu.

a reply to: themessengernevermatters

But the vaccinated ARE getting sick and ARE the majority of the hospitalizations. They're also having side effects and dying from the vaxx complications.

a reply to: BrujaRebooted

Took you a long time to get around to agreeing with themessengernevermatters
lots of circling around.

Remember asymptomatic is a long word for Healthy

originally posted by: Freenrgy2
a reply to: bladerunner44

How exactly?

I really don't have the time or inclination to educate you. Some things you have to do for yourself. Good luck with the coming ADE storm.

originally posted by: puzzled2
a reply to: BrujaRebooted

Took you a long time to get around to agreeing with themessengernevermatters
lots of circling around.

Remember asymptomatic is a long word for Healthy

No, we are NOT saying the same thing at all, and I have not agreed with his premise that the data shows the vaccine is causing morecases of COVID. I believe the data shows that increases in mutations and cases on the rise due to mutations are causing increases in vaccination.

Asymptomatic naturally or by vaccine is the net same.

At the very beginning they warned of 'waves'. That is could be up to 3 spikes that we see. That would take us right into midterms...

originally posted by: Dutchowl
a reply to: themessengernevermatters

But the vaccinated ARE getting sick and ARE the majority of the hospitalizations. They're also having side effects and dying from the vaxx complications.

That is misinformation straight up It's a 12-1 ratio here, 80% are fully vaxxed here, and represent 1/12th of the infections. It's simple math.

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
Sure reads like the vaccines are causing the waves, the variants, cases & deaths

Looks like the vaccine is doing what the bioweapon failed to do.

originally posted by: MrNewWorldOrder

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
* These are charts of data, not models.
* Data shown are either raw (as downloaded) or calculated simply from the raw data.
* Data are from official sources, as shown on charts.


1) Israel, daily Child (ages 0-19) & Adult (ages 20+) Vaccinations & New Covid Cases (all ages),
20 Dec 2020 - 31 Aug 2021

2) Israel, daily Child (ages 0-19) & Adult (ages 20+) Vaccinations & Covid Hospitalisations (all ages),
20 Dec 2020 - 31 Aug 2021

3) Israel, daily Child (ages 0-19) & Adult (ages 20+) Vaccinations & New Covid Deaths (all ages),
20 Dec 2020 - 31 Aug 2021

twitter.com...


Sure reads like the vaccines are causing the waves, the variants, cases & deaths

Doesn't it

Either that... or they're vaccinating during waves variants cases and deaths

The narrative has subtly changed from the ‘vax will protect you’ to, ‘the unvaxxed are making the vaxxed sick’.

It is a small but profound change not rooted in logic or science. The end result will be frightening.

Okay, you have a bunch of graphs here you think you can see things in it that look really alarming. Why? Think you can spot patterns? Add your own spin and interpretation on top? What you are saying and trying to argue makes absolutely no sense. If epidemiologists worked on this data like you do here, we really would be fooked. And way before this pandemic, too. There is nothing remotely inferential or valuable about your analysis. Never scream raw data and pretend you actually know what to do with it. That's the job of training, science and actual commonsense. Again, what you are trying to say means nothing. Sorry.

It's a bar graph, not a Rorschach test. The source data was provided to ignore at your convenience. You have to be actively shotgunning the cognitive dissonance coolade to not see there may be a problem here. I didn't realize the Idiocracy had already reached the "Only scientists can see pictures!" stage, yet here we are.

a reply to: bladerunner44

Typical response. All talk no show. Got it.