US approves sale of F-16s to Pakistan

Originally posted by waynos
I am sure that only the USA operates the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

I think all the export versions so far suppplied to Canada, Australia, Spain etc the old F/A-18A/B version which is vastly inferior and about 25 years old.

[edit on 28-3-2005 by waynos]

Just from a quick dig around..

It appears you are correct, again! grumble * grumble *

Australia is currently considering 2 options to cover the gap until 2013 when the JSF arrives.

1) Upgrading the Hornet.

2) Buying the Super Hornet.

Personally, I think its a very cunning sales technique

Sell stuff to India, Pakistan wants some. Sell stuff to Pakistan, India wants better (and usually that means more expensive) stuff to counter.

Its a win/win situation, yes theres a chance India will go elsewhere for their better stuff, but theres always a good chance they will go to the US.

Money, money, money.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
ahh!!..yes.. this is what the Indian papers must have been referring to in terms of uniqueness of the superhornet offer..
hmmm...Interesting..
Now I'm not so sure if the indians should turn the americans down on their offer..
Its much more than just buying the overall best aircraft..
The future of the subcontinent (and Asia) is unfolding in a very twisted manner!!

Question is,

How does this affect internal development within India?

Would India buy less LCA's and hold back on the MCA?

I mean, cost of the Super Hornets are going to be extensive i presume.

the real reason for the sale of F-16's to pakistan is to save 5000 jobs in Bush's home state of Texas.

check this out :

WASHINGTON: The US Administration's decision to sell F-16s to Pakistan has saved about 5,000 jobs in President George W Bush's home State, Texas, since makers of the fighter aircraft had been thinking about axing many staff till some time ago, reports said on Saturday.


Lockheed Martin Corp., the builder of the planes, had said it needed new orders for the jet before this fall, or it would have to take action to close the production line that employs about 5,000 workers in Fort Worth, Texas.

Richard Aboulafia, an aircraft analyst with the Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, called the sale of two dozen fighters to Pakistan "a happy juxtaposition of the wants and needs".

Pak F-16's save 5000 american jobs


otherwise who would sell stuff to a state that sponsors terrorism.

Originally posted by rapier28

Question is,

How does this affect internal development within India?

Would India buy less LCA's and hold back on the MCA?

I mean, cost of the Super Hornets are going to be extensive i presume.

Frankly I don't see much concrete work being done on the MCA....
(maybe that's just me)..

How do the Superhornets match up to the Mirage 2000-V, Grippen, MiG-29 SM..
I don't know..
Again as I said its much more than buying the best aircraft now...
India sees the US offer as a invitation to a new relationship in various other fields (nuclear/space/medical)...

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Prelude Indian military purchases are not left in the hands of the voters of the Indian community but the very same defence analysts you spoke off..
There is a well-oiled system in place which wviews all the tenders and scrutinizes them w.r.t. price, availability, existing infrastructure, future strategic alliances and possibility of future sanctions..
The media is also not dumb to these matters and the indian public is not as ignorant as you may assume..
Its not just about buying the best fighter here anymore..there's much more at stake involving future deals/alliances/tech transfers etc..

1 was it the so called "WELL OILED" system who approved the Bofors ?
I hope the Indians out here know very well about the Issue...for the rest of the world Buying the Bofors tanks was in short a Great military/political scandal in India

2 A child in Chandni-chock knows how much internal politics/corruption affects foreign Arms exchange in India
there are many instances 1 coffins for the Kargil soldiers 2 the Tehelka etc

3 Recently the left front has pressurized the government not to go for the US arms coz they have an anti american ideology

4 There is not a single competent newspaper that is politically independent

4 officially the Indian literacy was 59.5% (2003) only God knows the real figures...so its quite common for Indians to b ignorant......moreover they are Ignorant of the own great vedic culture (and you know very well i hope the recent Americanization trend in the so called "Higher society" if you dont see "Page 3" ).........u cant expect them to have deep knowledge on military
....for your information .I have spent 4 years in India and know very well the scenario out there

1 was it the so called "WELL OILED" system who approved the Bofors ?
I hope the Indians out here know very well about the Issue...for the rest of the world Buying the Bofors tanks was in short a Great military/political scandal in India

2 A child in Chandni-chock knows how much internal politics/corruption affects foreign Arms exchange in India
there are many instances 1 coffins for the Kargil soldiers 2 the Tehelka etc

3 Recently the left front has pressurized the government not to go for the US arms coz they have an anti american ideology

4 There is not a single competent newspaper that is politically independent

4 officially the Indian literacy was 59.5% (2003) only God knows the real figures...so its quite common for Indians to b ignorant......moreover they are Ignorant of the own great vedic culture (and you know very well i hope the recent Americanization trend in the so called "Higher society" if you dont see "Page 3" ).........u cant expect them to have deep knowledge on military
....for your information .I have spent 4 years in India and know very well the scenario out there

Prelude,

In what way do you think Russia is any better? 60% literacy level translates to 600 million Indians who are NOT ignorant. That is of course, based on your logic that all non-literate people are ignorant.

You think the Yukos/Chechnya fiasco happens in a democratic country? The last I knew, Chandni Chowk did not starving Indians, but St. Petersburg certainly had a lot of lines in front of grocery stores with their non-existant groceries.

Any newspaper in India is a billion times more independant than Pravda.

Look at where Russia ranks in the list of most corrupt countries. You think the dachas are being maintained with honest money?

well, i could rant on forever, but I have a real job to do.

By the way, I think the four years you spent in India was probably spent pimping East Eropean women.

Originally posted by prelude
1 was it the so called "WELL OILED" system who approved the Bofors ?
I hope the Indians out here know very well about the Issue...for the rest of the world Buying the Bofors tanks was in short a Great military/political scandal in India

2 A child in Chandni-chock knows how much internal politics/corruption affects foreign Arms exchange in India
there are many instances 1 coffins for the Kargil soldiers 2 the Tehelka etc

3 Recently the left front has pressurized the government not to go for the US arms coz they have an anti american ideology

4 There is not a single competent newspaper that is politically independent

4 officially the Indian literacy was 59.5% (2003) only God knows the real figures...so its quite common for Indians to b ignorant......moreover they are Ignorant of the own great vedic culture (and you know very well i hope the recent Americanization trend in the so called "Higher society" if you dont see "Page 3" ).........u cant expect them to have deep knowledge on military
....for your information .I have spent 4 years in India and know very well the scenario out there

I don't know where you spent your four years in India..I'm guessing it would be the US equivalent of Alabama or North Dakota (Bihar)..because the metropolitan regions are very tuned in to current happenings..

Anyways the decisions are left in the hands of the defence analysts, generals , and appointed experts int the respective field... not in the hands of the ill-informed masses/social glitterati etc etc...
I would expect you to assume that from a country like India..

As the guy who posted above me has mentioned, India has TONS of news media some of which are SO independant that they do not align themselves with ANY political front.. They're just plain and simple ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT
That way there is a neutral critic for both the govt. in poewr and the opposition..
"The Frontline" is a good example..

Other TV media examples of unbiased reporting are "tehelka.com" of the sting operations fame...
then there's "aaj tak", "NDTV"... all sincere in depth multi faceted reporting..
Infact NDTV won the Best news channel in ASIA award recently ..and i think for 2 years in a row..
Do not be so quick to judge India's media..esp in the last 5 years it has become the beacon for free expression w/o the fear of prosecution..
I wonder why you mentioned "tehelka" in the negative sense???


As for corruption in foreign arms exchange, well I agree it still exists, as it does in EVERY country..
But the media is getting there and trying to expose it all..
BTw everybody who glances at the paper or watches the news at least once a week will know about the USAF F-16 F-18 E/F offer..I can guarantee you that, because its just about been dissected in detail in every daily..

As for the BOFORS, yes money was paid to get the deal and certain pockets were laced...
But that doesn't dispute the fac that the BOFORS were the BEST artillery guns the IN Army could have bought and that was proved in Kargil..
Don't worry India's decision making is in good hands.. esp on military deals because the military has a lot of say and they're mostly uncorrupt..
I can vouch for that..

The SU-30MKI is a formidable AC. It's difficult to say how an air battle would unfold without including supporting assets. In basic terms, the F-16's advantage is the smaller RCS and AMRAAM has the best combat record of any BVRAAM in service.

F-16 frontal RCS= ~1.2m^2
SU-30 frontal RCS= ~10m^2

The N011M has a longer range than the AN/APG-68(v)9, but the low RCS of the F-16 takes away that advantage. The AN/APG-68(v)5 would pick up a SU-30 size target at about 140-160km. The N011M would pick up a F-16 size target at about the same range.

The AN/APG-68(v)9 has about a 30% improvement in range over the (v)5, so the F-16 should see the SU-30 at about ~180km. So the F-16 should see the SU-30 before the Sukhoi sees the F-16. The F-16 is not in missile range at 180km, but very close. AIM120C7 should have a range of around ~90-100nm, depending on the launch conditions, especially if the AC are converging. This is still outside the detection envelope of the N011M against the F-16.

EW/ECM plays a big part- if the F-16 is jamming the N011M, the SU-30 has to be much closer to overpower the jamming signal. Western technology is far superior to Russian tech in this respect, so again the edge goes to the F-16 for first look.

In WVR scenarios, the F-16 has 2 advantages- it's a much smaller target, and that much harder to see, especially head-on. The SU-30 has lousy rearward vision, while the F-16 driver has good all-around view, and he is looking for a much larger AC. Both AC are extremely manouverable, but off- boresight missiles and HMCS make manouverability a non-issue. If you can see the target, you can shoot it down.

This doesn't mean it is a cakewalk for the Viper driver. If he is not on his toes, the SU-30 poses a serious threat. Fighters do not operate alone. Both sides will have multiple AC working together. So where the engagement takes place is just as important as how it takes place. IADS, AWACS, GCI, etc.

HTH

-CM
-------------------------------------
This proves that the F-16 is still in the top league. considering PAF & IAF scenerio IAF MiG-29s & Mirage2000 are inferior to latest block 52+C/D & 60C/D/E/F. With the weapons system F-16s are even capable of shooting down Su-30MKIs.

Anyways...those who believed that IAF's French & Russian & some british AirCrafts are superior to current US fleet (Conclusion after cope thunder) need to assess the scenerio as well. The Cope thunder results were made public by Indian media but the report did not make the US formations public. This is how the cope thunder realy happened;

1. The ratio of IAF to USAF was 3:1 (3 IAF fighters v/s 1 USAF fighter)

2. IAF was supported by AWACS.

3. USAF did not used any support system including the AWACS

4. IAF did use BVR systems

5. USAF was told to conduct the battle on WVR basis so it could assess the dog fighting capabilities of Russian AirCrafts.(meaning no AIM-120,AIM-9X AMRAAMs were used).


These limitations would make any good Airforce loose against any moderate force. It is believed that by practicing on such limitations, US armed forces were making fool out of polititions so they could spend more on defence. Anyways the reason for USAF to conduct cope thunder was not to win but to assess the Russian technology of Su-30MKI. It was also reported that each USAF aircraft tried to get onto Su-30MKIs rather than MiG-29 & Mirage2000-9. But 3 Aircrafts (combinition of Su-30, MiG-29 &Mirage2000) altogather will bring down even an F-22 is detected.

Simple words US has better radars & weapons systems are far superior to Russians (proved in Yougosilavia/Serbian war). If they r even integrated on F-16 block it would bring down even RAFALE. Block 52+ & 60 are considered in the league of RAFALEs while with up coming latest radars & BVR missiles it would take even on EF-2000.

This is why US F-16s are considered the best ACs in the world. Their Air to Air capability far exceeds that of F-18s (F-18s r better at ground attack than F-16s though) & has now surpased the F-15s as well, which were primiraly developed for A2A combat. Hence till the F-22 & JSF-35 are inducted the best AirCraft USAF has is F-16 Fighting Falcon & they are coming back home to PAKISTAN.

But this is no threat to IAF. PAF has been a defensive force & will not cross lines unless its a war or IAF has crossed the line 1st.
2ndly India should stay away from the deal since Pakistan considers F-16s & its defence needs as domestic & internal issues. Only foregin element in Pakistani defence is the weapon seller to Pakistan or weapons buyer from Pakistan. If India tries to intervine than it will seriously hinder the peace process as Pakistan would declare that India is interviening in its state affairs. If F-16s sold it would bring arms balance & stability. IAF will not cross the lines & PAF wont have to.
PEACE BE EVERY WHERE. THUMBS UP TO PAF & IAF.

when we get our 50+ F-16s, 50+ JF-17s along with current fleet of 160+ F-7PG BVR capables, 76 Mirage-3/5 ROSE Upgrade BVR capables, 32 MLU F-16s, 60 A-5Ds & 30 JH-7s we hopefuly will conduct joint excercise with IAF
Plus PAF is now considering Mirage2000-9 as well as Rafale. any one of these would also be in the became representing PAF.

^^^
I suggest you hunt for the F-16 v. MiG29 thread..The latest MiG 29s are quite a craze..
I seriuosly doubt that the opinion that Block 50 F-16 can pose ANY threat to Su-30 MKIs..
You cannot assume that the RCS of an F-16 'nullifies' the N0-11M radar..
That can only be done with figures, stats, values etc etc.. which I'm sure you do not have at your disposal..
Hence such a "nullification" is illegitimate..

As for the F-16 having better visibility than the Su-30 MKI.. another unfounded statement.. can you quote a source on that?
I sat in a Su-30 and it IMO has a cockpit elevated and nose dipped so that visibility is almost 360.
Although I have not sat in an F-16 so I wouldn't be able say which one is better..
Again the Su30 has a pilot and a navigator/weps expert.. thats two heads instead of one in the F-16 block 50. In WVR, MVR and close range combat the Su30 ,although almost twice as big as the F-16, is DEFINITELY more manueverable..
C'mon man TVC, assymetric nozzle computer control.. the works..
Infact the Su-30s took part in a exercise with the RSAF F-16s block 50 recently.. Unfortunately the results were kept classified by both the IAF and RSAF on mutual consent..
IAF has potential PAF F-16s as enemies , while RSAF has potential Malaysian Su-30 MKMs as rivals..
Hence it was in the best interests of both to keep the results classifed..
Su-30 MKI is the cream frontline fighter of the InAF.
F-16 block 70s are merely being considered as a stop gap replacement fo rht ageing MiG 21s/23s/27.. till the LCA is inducted..
F-16 blk 70s are being compared with the Grippen/Mirage 2000-5/Rafale..
Su-30 is way above this league..Im sure th eeuro ATS members will agree to this as well..
MiG 29SM is a better comparision for the F-16s..
As for the F-16 block 50 being superior to the Mirage 2000, again lets compare aircraft stats and then comment..

Does it really matter if Pakistan gets any more F-16s? i mean their original A models only have early model Sidewinders and don't pose that much of a threat, hell the Pakistani's are the only ones to lose an F-16 in air combat, against themselves! Somehow one F-16 pilot managed to shoot down his wingman while chasing down some Soviet Mig 27s back in the Afghan war in the early 80s. I doubt whether they will get AIM120s with their 'new' F-16s and they are probably down graded anyway.

Yes that was quite tragic..must have beeen hell for the morale of the entire PAF fighter pilot force...Hope nobody died...
And the paksi are good fighter pilots mind you..
Probabaly the best muslim fighter pilots in the world...

Edit: what i mean to say is the best islamic AF in the world..

[edit on 1-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

"Prelude , In what way do you think Russia is any better?"

First of all let me tell you I never compared India with Russia . Nor do I hate India in any way .Rather if there is any country that I respect the most after Russia then its India(after all my father was an Indian ). But I don't believe in blind love and that’s why I was just pointing out some defects in the Indian System that is preventing India from being one of the most prosperous countries in the world . Why I love India and why I don't compare between India and Russia is beyond your reach so for you I ll prefer to go on you line and just show you how Russia is better(well the world knows that )


" 60% literacy level translates to 600 million Indians who are NOT ignorant. That is of course, based on your logic that all non-literate people are ignorant.”
for Russia the literacy rate is 99.6% which is even more than the USA (97%)
source: CIA


”You think the Yukos/Chechnya fiasco happens in a democratic country?”
When the Yukos leader illegally took way the sate property the so called Independent media was silent but when the state is following her constitutional rights to get back her properties . it appears to be undemocratic to the Media? Well they have every reason to be against the Russian Government (rather Putin) because all the Western motives of looting away Russian wealth have been shattered after Putin came to power.

Chechnya? So when Russia fights against terrorism to protect a territory that have been officially a part of Russia since the imperial times it’s Undemocratic…while when India fights for Kashmir which is still a matter of dispute in the UN its “Democratic”? (I m never saying that Kashmir doesn’t belong to India but there is an International line of control in the province and its still a matter of dispute )

and moreover Russia is never officially a Democratic Country it’s a “controlled Democracy”(again that’s beyond your reach)


“The last I knew, Chandni Chowk did not starving Indians, but St. Petersburg certainly had a lot of lines in front of grocery stores with their non-existent groceries.”
Such comments prove that your ignorance dates back 1990s,
and all these makes me wonder how Independent your Media systems are….if you prefer to stay ignorant you are always welcome but if you want to know the fact make a visit to St Petersburg
However for the sake of comparison(which is of course your concept not mine)
Russia’s GDP per capita is 9,500USD(March 2005)
while for India the figure reads 2900USD. Which ROUGHLY means that a normal Russian is more than three times richer than a normal Indian.
Ask any visitor who have visited both St Petersburg and Delhi all will say St Petersburg is a heaven when compared to Delhi…..St Petersburg is regarded one of the most beautiful cities in the world while Delhi is popularly one of the most polluted cities …..you don't find slums in Russian cities as you do in the Indian cities
If India is better than Russia then why do you find all the NRIs doing a labor’s job in Moscow?



“Any newspaper in India is a billion times more independant than Pravda. ”
you can write TRILLION times anyone is not going to count!
Pravda is one of the most popular news source for westerners who prefer independent (not independAnt as you spell) news, almost all of the writers (in Pravda forum ) and readers of Pravda are westerners, US citizens and Indians.
Moreover Russia officially claims that its media is Controlled by the state (they have every reasons for that which is again beyond ....)…..so its better than the hypocrisy that happens else-where .



“Look at where Russia ranks in the list of most corrupt countries. You think the dachas are being maintained with honest money? ”

I think you know very well where India’s rank is .....so you didn’t mention it!!!!

“well, i could rant on forever, but I have a real job to do. ”

do you really have a real job?

“By the way, I think the four years you spent in India was probably spent pimping East Eropean women.”
Yes I did…. and you are the product of all those “pimping” .Just ask yr mom.

Ok now we can all chill...

Originally posted by Daedalus3

I don't know where you spent your four years in India..I'm guessing it would be the US equivalent of Alabama or North Dakota (Bihar)..because the metropolitan regions are very tuned in to current happenings..

Anyways the decisions are left in the hands of the defence analysts, generals , and appointed experts int the respective field... not in the hands of the ill-informed masses/social glitterati etc etc...
I would expect you to assume that from a country like India..

As the guy who posted above me has mentioned, India has TONS of news media some of which are SO independant that they do not align themselves with ANY political front.. They're just plain and simple ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT
That way there is a neutral critic for both the govt. in poewr and the opposition..
"The Frontline" is a good example..

Other TV media examples of unbiased reporting are "tehelka.com" of the sting operations fame...
then there's "aaj tak", "NDTV"... all sincere in depth multi faceted reporting..
Infact NDTV won the Best news channel in ASIA award recently ..and i think for 2 years in a row..
Do not be so quick to judge India's media..esp in the last 5 years it has become the beacon for free expression w/o the fear of prosecution..
I wonder why you mentioned "tehelka" in the negative sense???

As for corruption in foreign arms exchange, well I agree it still exists, as it does in EVERY country..
But the media is getting there and trying to expose it all..
BTw everybody who glances at the paper or watches the news at least once a week will know about the USAF F-16 F-18 E/F offer..I can guarantee you that, because its just about been dissected in detail in every daily..

As for the BOFORS, yes money was paid to get the deal and certain pockets were laced...
But that doesn't dispute the fac that the BOFORS were the BEST artillery guns the IN Army could have bought and that was proved in Kargil..
Don't worry India's decision making is in good hands.. esp on military deals because the military has a lot of say and they're mostly uncorrupt..
I can vouch for that..

Daelaus3 please don’t get me wrong I never have any intension of of showing India down ….and you can easily discover all those in my previous posts all I want to point out is that there are several short comings in the Indian system which is preventing India from being one of the most prosperous countries in the world (I expect all these from India because unlike most other countries India DO have the potential )

there are thousands of things in India which I like and above all is her Culture and Traditions (leaving the Hypocrisy)

but don't you think India is going in the wrong path in many ways ?I have spent my time in the Indian city of Kolkata which is one of the epitomes in Indian Culture but I analyzed some of the Fundamental mistakes the average Indian community is making

here are some of those

1 all know that India had a very rich and Vedic culture but just watch the modern Indian Generation ……why don't they understand Westernization is not modernization ….I didn’t find a single guy in my locality who has a fair knowledge of the Vedas , Purans and the Gita ….well most of them know a lot about bollywood (again not” Indian Film industry” but a proto type of Hollywood ) and Hollywood …….
my question is if you yourself don't respect your own great culture how do you expect others to respect you?

2 Today India is making friends with those countries who have done the maximum loss to the India during her worst times
Yes I m pointing to US and UK (you know how?)
today uttering fluent wrong English in India makes you collars up while speaking pure hindi makes you a “Gawar”

I m not saying that knowing English is not necessary ……but how dare u have a superiority complex by speaking a language that has enslaved you for 200 years?

"Immitation is not civilization"

3 You are speaking about Aaj tak and Star News I ll add more Indian Express , Hindustan Times , The Asian Age etc(but not Times of India)…but just think how many people in Rural areas of India have an access to the cable television ?or news papers like Frontline
All their source of Information are the local news papers all of which are politically motivated.

4 yes what Tehelka did was really an Eye opener …but what happened to the Telka owners after they published the news ????all of them faced biased embarrassment by the Government ..Mr Bajpayee could have set an better example by punishing the bribe takers instead of indirectly supporting them .

5 why are the Induians Ignorant about the Chinese eveil motives……are they again going to loose their territory for their age-old greatness ?

having said all these I think it will be unwise if I don't point out some of the good elements I noticed in India I wont explain all these coz I think you know very well about all these things
1 great ancient tradition and culture(beyond the reach of an average man)
2 Family Bondage
3 Respect for Knowledge (but only among the among the lower class and the middle class)
4 Freedom (India is most free country in the world I think …but this freedom costs her a lot)
5 the talented rising middle class
6 Indian music

and lastly but perhaps the most important thing that still binds India to her great culture in spite of all these Americanization…..Purity of an Indian Mother.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

I suggest you hunt for the F-16 v. MiG29 thread..The latest MiG 29s are quite a craze..
I seriuosly doubt that the opinion that Block 50 F-16 can pose ANY threat to Su-30 MKIs..
You cannot assume that the RCS of an F-16 'nullifies' the N0-11M radar..
That can only be done with figures, stats, values etc etc.. which I'm sure you do not have at your disposal..
Hence such a "nullification" is illegitimate..

As for the F-16 having better visibility than the Su-30 MKI.. another unfounded statement.. can you quote a source on that?
I sat in a Su-30 and it IMO has a cockpit elevated and nose dipped so that visibility is almost 360.
Although I have not sat in an F-16 so I wouldn't be able say which one is better..
Again the Su30 has a pilot and a navigator/weps expert.. thats two heads instead of one in the F-16 block 50. In WVR, MVR and close range combat the Su30 ,although almost twice as big as the F-16, is DEFINITELY more manueverable..
C'mon man TVC, assymetric nozzle computer control.. the works..
Infact the Su-30s took part in a exercise with the RSAF F-16s block 50 recently.. Unfortunately the results were kept classified by both the IAF and RSAF on mutual consent..
IAF has potential PAF F-16s as enemies , while RSAF has potential Malaysian Su-30 MKMs as rivals..
Hence it was in the best interests of both to keep the results classifed..
Su-30 MKI is the cream frontline fighter of the InAF.
F-16 block 70s are merely being considered as a stop gap replacement fo rht ageing MiG 21s/23s/27.. till the LCA is inducted..
F-16 blk 70s are being compared with the Grippen/Mirage 2000-5/Rafale..
Su-30 is way above this league..Im sure th eeuro ATS members will agree to this as well..
MiG 29SM is a better comparision for the F-16s..
As for the F-16 block 50 being superior to the Mirage 2000, again lets compare aircraft stats and then comment..

Either u take me for granted or ur fool ur self. I realy wont believe u now that u sat on an Su-30/27. I have been on both & I tell u cant have 360 degree view on Su-30. Have a look at this pic ypur self



now how the hell did u get the 360th degree view in the rear of the aircraft while its blocked by windtunnel.

Now the F-16.





The head is raised so that the pilot can have that 360th degree view unlike Su-30

Realy either u r taking me forgranted (the person who has source with US & its major aviatio companies like LH-M & Northorp Grummen & Sweden's SAAB) or I guess you have an X-ray vision, lol. video games don't count, I am only interested in discussing real aircraft.

About the LCA, I seriously doubt that it will ever get inducted & I think thats why u ppl are looking for US or any other western fighter.how long India has been working on the LCA? "30 years".....the main reasom LCA might just get the kick is that last fall Kaveiri engine collapsed on the test bench in Russia. The engine has failed.
Its ok though, you guys can beg some more GE404's from the Americans now, they feel sorry for you. Oh, but then it wouldn't really be indiginous, would it?

hey, you know what? You can't see $h!t out of the LCA cockpit to the rear either! Do all Indian pilots have X-ray vision, or just you?



In WVR engagements, visibility is everything. The manouverability differences between the F-16 and SU-30 are slight, but the SU-30MKI has the edge, in spite of it's large size. The canards and TVC make a big difference. Standard SU-30's cannot out turn an F-16. But again, off-boresight missiles (AIM-9X) and HMCS devalue the higher turn rate in combat, and the F-16 driver's MUCH better visibility gives him an edge, because if he can see the SU, he can shoot it. There is no longer the need to point the nose at the target. The only time the SU-30 has an advantage in WVR is in a guns-only fight. Also, the relative size of the 2 AC make a HUGE difference- the F-16 is much more difficult to see, especially head on, than the SU-30. That's a fact, whether you like it or not.

the reason that the SU-30 is a two seater, is because the Russians haven't been able to integrate the electronics to the point where they can even build a multi-role AC with only one pilot. That's why all the single seater SU-27 variants have no strike capability

Coming to MiG-29...him how many of these 'new' MiG-29's are actually in service, lol. It's more Russian drawing board $h!t. A few VVS MiG-29's may been upgraded to (I think the M variant, I would have to look it up), but that's it. Look at the MiG-29's combat record- Let's see, there is a civilian airliner, an unarmed Cessna shot down by Cuba, and a MiG-29 shot down another MiG-29. Lol. F-16's have been blowing MiG's out of the sky for 25 years or so. The first A2A kill in Yugoslavia was a Dutch F-16 who shot down a Serbian MiG-29 with an AIM-120 AMRAAM. F-16's have downed 5 or 6 MiG-29's to date. There's a saying- the F-16 is the world's largest distributor of MiG parts.





[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]

[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]

american view
aeroweb.lucia.it...&Falcon.html

Russian view
www.hostultra.com...

general comparison of Mig 29

www.hostultra.com...

Originally posted by R988
Does it really matter if Pakistan gets any more F-16s? i mean their original A models only have early model Sidewinders and don't pose that much of a threat, hell the Pakistani's are the only ones to lose an F-16 in air combat, against themselves! Somehow one F-16 pilot managed to shoot down his wingman while chasing down some Soviet Mig 27s back in the Afghan war in the early 80s. I doubt whether they will get AIM120s with their 'new' F-16s and they are probably down graded anyway.

F-16 Block 15 A/B are going to get MLU, which will bring them close to Block 52+ & with that they'll carry AIM-120 AMRAAMs, ASRAAMs & JDAMs. Plus like new 52+ block PAF also integrate MLU versions with AESA Radars.

BTW as long as I am member of this forum, never insult the pilot who shot down his own friend (real life friend) in a friendly fire.
The 1st F-16 took off from Peshawar the other one from Sargodah. Niether new both were there. It was cloudy day & Russians who realy got scared of of F-16s hid him self in the clouds & tried to scape. One saw it & went into the clouds to bring it out but the other who did not knw that his friend was also in the clouds fired the missile which apprently hit his own friend. They were not allowed to use the radio & were to maintain the silence. But as soon as the pilot realized that he has shot his own friend he stayed there in the hostile Afghan airspace & called for rescue team. He flew there fo 30+ mins while Afgans & Russians had a great chance at that moment to shoot him down while he was circuling his friend.

Unlike IAF our pilots dont run off leaving there friends behind.
Need I remind u off 1965 Gnat, Sikan inncident or IAF dont talk abt it since it brings shame to them?

paf4u.8m.com...


lol ... Indians have always under estimated PAF & PAF has always kicked their behinds. 1965 PAF managed to bring down all intruding IAF jets with just on class of AirCraft. The F-86 SABRE (one occassion MM Alam shot 5 IAF hunters down in less than one minute...he lives in my city now )& even though we lost our right wing of the country in 1971, the west wing AirForce again kicked IAF's behind.

www.bharat-rakshak.com...
www.pakmilitary.net...

you ppl are again under estimating PAF & God for bid if war strikes again the same F-16s u think are inferior will be shooting down the superior ACs of IAF.

PAF is not only the best Islamic Nation AirForce their pilots are best in the world. They are so best that UAE & KSA doesnt allow their local Pilots to fly their fighters but PAF leased pilots only. For 50 years KSAAF & UAEAF aircrafts have been flewen by PAF pilots. During Arab Israel war many Arab Nations called on Pakistan to send their pilots since their pilots were not trained well. As a result PAF pilots on Syrian & Egyption fighters shot down many Israeli Mirages with MiG-21s. All PAF pilots returned home safely after the war but were later recalled to train Arab Nations.
Today they fly KSA's F-15s, Tornedoes. UAEAF Mirage2000-9, F-16 Block60E/F. They have flew MiG-29 (8 mig-29s are also based in Pakistan gifted by Ukrain 2 yrs ago for training & aggressor sqdns). PAF pilots have flew on Ukrainian Su-27 & might just have done so on PLAAF Su-30s.
3 pilots have been awarded an honor by three different govts for flying almost all the fighters there are (not the new generation fighters).

Anyways what the hack m i doing ??? I am arguing. I have not done this since i was a kid. lol....Indians can realy drive any one crazy (no offence)....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways here is more info on F-16 v/s Su-30

BVR, Head-to-Head:

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2

Maximum effective detective Range:

AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km (95Km latest published) for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target

N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target

Source: AIR INTERNATIONAL

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
Source: vayu-sena.tripod.com...


Theoretically,

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

The problem with X vs. Y comaprisons is that they are worthless in real life. These calculations do not take into consideration ECM/ECCM or supporting assets, nor do they use actual classified data on the systems.

For example, if the F-16 is carrying the AN/ALQ-184 or AN/ALQ-131 jamming pod, the Sukhoi's radar, and the R-77 missile will have a very difficult time locking onto the F-16 at BVR ranges.

Also, the Russians tend to overstate their capabilities, especially in radar and missile ranges, while the US tends to understate them. The US is not dependent on FMS to keep the aerospace industry afloat, and Russia is.

HOBS heaters and JHMCS do equalize manouverability factors, and IR signature becomes more important- again, counter measures such as flares and ECM pods play a part in defeating the missile, and the SU-30 has a much higher IR signature than the F-16- two engines instead of one and a larger airframe. IIR (AIM-9X) seekers take a snapshot of the target, so burners are not as big factor as with standard IR (R-73) seekers.

Air combat is an extremely complex and dynamic subject. X vs. Y comparisons based only on things like published radar and missile ranges is for kids.

In the end, it's the man, not the machine. If you want to know which one I am more comfortable with, look at the combat records- this tells the true story & Considering the man & not the machine, I say PAF beats IAF hands down. Also consider past records of both AirForces pilots.

[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]

Originally posted by SABRE
Either u take me for granted or ur fool ur self. I realy wont believe u now that u sat on an Su-30/27. I have been on both & I tell u cant have 360 degree view on Su-30. Have a look at this pic ypur self
now how the hell did u get the 360th degree view in the rear of the aircraft while its blocked by windtunnel.
Now the F-16.
In WVR engagements, visibility is everything. The manouverability differences between the F-16 and SU-30 are slight, but the SU-30MKI has the edge, in spite of it's large size. The canards and TVC make a big difference. Standard SU-30's cannot out turn an F-16. But again, off-boresight missiles (AIM-9X) and HMCS devalue the higher turn rate in combat, and the F-16 driver's MUCH better visibility gives him an edge, because if he can see the SU, he can shoot it. There is no longer the need to point the nose at the target. The only time the SU-30 has an advantage in WVR is in a guns-only fight. Also, the relative size of the 2 AC make a HUGE difference- the F-16 is much more difficult to see, especially head on, than the SU-30. That's a fact, whether you like it or not.

Coming to MiG-29...him how many of these 'new' MiG-29's are actually in service, lol. It's more Russian drawing board $h!t. A few VVS MiG-29's may been upgraded to (I think the M variant, I would have to look it up), but that's it. Look at the MiG-29's combat record- Let's see, there is a civilian airliner, an unarmed Cessna shot down by Cuba, and a MiG-29 shot down another MiG-29. Lol. F-16's have been blowing MiG's out of the sky for 25 years or so. The first A2A kill in Yugoslavia was a Dutch F-16 who shot down a Serbian MiG-29 with an AIM-120 AMRAAM. F-16's have downed 5 or 6 MiG-29's to date. There's a saying- the F-16 is the world's largest distributor of MiG parts.


[edit on 1-4-2005 by SABRE]

You don't believe that I've sat in (not 'on' you twit) a Su 30 MKI and you expect me to believe that you've sat in both??

I live in Pune.. home of the Su-30s in India and m father commanded a hunter squadron here in the 70s so I got a chance to see and sit in Su-30 s as well as jaguars stationed here at Lohegaon Pune.
Now I would like to hear how you managed to sit "ON" both the Su-30 and F-16.. Bases and method of acquaintance would be prefered
(Esp the su30!! unless you're some ISI spy dude who's "firefoxed" one of our Indian Su-30s!!..:wow

Not vague credentials like and I quote:

Realy either u r taking me forgranted (the person who has source with US & its major aviatio companies like LH-M & Northorp Grummen & Sweden's SAAB....& a friend who has worked on B-2 Spirit Bomber)

the person who has "source" with etc etc.. What the hec do you mean by that?
And What does the B-2 have to do with this??Im very happy for you B-2 friend but sorry that just doesn't come into the pic here..
As for the 360 vision bit.. well I secede to you.. It does seem that the F-16 has a better vision cone than the Su-30.
Again the Su-30 has two heads rather than one so the all-round vision bit isn't a 'clear advantage' of sorts..
Also since we're talking about cockpit visibility we are obv. in the MVR and close combat range where everyone knows the Su-30 MKI has more manueverability..
I suppose you assumed that Su-30s are devoid of off-boresight missiles?
Go check again..
The new MiG 29s have helmet mounted sights for chrissakes!!
The F-16 is smaller to see agreed, but the Su-30 can execute controlled flat yaws, impossible to achieve by the F-16.. so yes sighting is a problem but again to acquire radar lock one doesn't need to point at the target to get a llock..not anymore..
Higher rate of turn means the Su will be able to keep the F-16 in sight more than the F-16 will be able to do so..
Again the manueverability didfferences between the F-16 and Su-30 are NOT "slight'..
So you can take that F-16 cockpit and gloat but its got ZERO pluses over the Su-30...

the reason that the SU-30 is a two seater, is because the Russians haven't been able to integrate the electronics to the point where they can even build a multi-role AC with only one pilot. That's why all the single seater SU-27 variants have no strike capability

although I'd like to say that this is a load of rubbish..I'll put it this way..The Su-30 does not suffer ANY disadvantage in flight ops with 2 pilots..If anything its an advantage.. so talking about "russian inabilities" in single seater aircraft is completely IRRELEVANT to the discussion at hand...

And btw single Seater Su-35s have plenty of "strike capability"..

Coming to MiG-29...him how many of these 'new' MiG-29's are actually in service, lol. It's more Russian drawing board $h!t. A few VVS MiG-29's may been upgraded to (I think the M variant, I would have to look it up), but that's it. Look at the MiG-29's combat record- Let's see, there is a civilian airliner, an unarmed Cessna shot down by Cuba, and a MiG-29 shot down another MiG-29. Lol.

again those incidents do not exhibit the overall inferiority of the MiG 29 to the
F-16.. Its basically just dirt you've dug up on the MiG 29.. pilot error etc. etc.
basically incompetence on the pilots part..
(btw F-16 shot down its wingman too if you didn't know)

Yes F-16s have shot down serbian MiG 29s, arab MiG 29s etc etc.. Maybe some Libyan ones too.. Incompetent AFs all of them.. esp the arabs..
Shoot a German MiG 29 or a InAF MiG 29 down using a blk 50 F-16 and then its something to talk about..
Another thing about the Germans; they have blk 50 F-16s and MiG 29s as well..Only AF I think that has both aircraft..
They say that the MiG29 is better...
Again I suggest you go to the MiG 29 vs f-16 thread on ATS..
Its a trove of info..

And finally to the LCA..
Thats just spite you're spewing all over the post, because again it HAS NO relevance to the topic at hand..
In very poor taste.....
And as for being the first paki I've seen on ATS military fora..I welcome you..takes guts,( the last guy left saying he'd never post anything anit-indian again!!)..esp.. since that F-16 own goal was none other than the PAF!!
I will not comment on the state of the paki AF, its fighter program..etc, etc..
because well theres nothing much to talk about..

btw I'd like to know where you reside in Pakistan..I've lived there for 3 years myself..

[edit on 1-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

cool down dalus after all this guy has proved that Pakistan has net connections (after all have have made some use of their US loans )