Israel Reports Highest Case of Covid Cases Dispute Third Booster Shots.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: HawkEyi

Figures in Israel will never match 'standard' figures in the rest of the world. You get normal secular society then you get the Haredim who are a law to themselves and follow their own rules on keeping a (non) safe distance etc

I wonder if they were informed the vaccine would be 'substandard' for them when they consented to be jabbed.🤔

a reply to: Xtrozero

So the vaccine is essentially God to you?

You can't know it's the vaccine or pre-exposure that has helped build immunity due our health professionals not recommending an anti-body before vaccination, but it has to mean the vaccine is working.

originally posted by: TheLead


So the vaccine is essentially God to you?

You can't know it's the vaccine or pre-exposure that has helped build immunity due our health professionals not recommending an anti-body before vaccination, but it has to mean the vaccine is working.

Well something is happening, and natural immunizations isn't there yet to be the main reason. We also have states reporting that only about 5% or less of people going to hospitals are vaccinated, so it seems something is working there.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
They have a very low death rate, so all seems to be working.

So, just out of curiosity, is stopping the spread no longer a viable goal, so we've moved the goalposts to, "Yeah, but did they die?"

Honest question, because I can't keep up with the changing narrative anymore, and I'm starting to lose interest in trying. So, are we not allowed to discuss the fact that numbers are dramatically increasing in areas that seem to have lots of available and injected vaccines, and we can only talk about the lower death rate?

Because that could be because of the mutations making these coronaviruses less severe in the symptoms, like they're generally known to do with most subsequent mutations--it could have nothing to do with the vaccines.

a reply to: Xtrozero

• Covid has claimed the lives of 0.65% of COVID infections in Israel.

• 12% of the nation has had COVID, and therefore we can assume about 10% have natural immunity, taking into account a few reinfections (although those are still quite rare in previously infected people).

• 60.8% of their population is fully vaccinated against the ancestral strain (that's worth noting because the efficacy against the Delta variant can be as low as about 40%).

• An additional 5.5% more of the population has had a single shot, but isn't fully vaccinated.

So, taking into account some overlap of vaccinated and previously infected people, let's say that about 65-70% of the country has some amount of immunity to the virus, but even more if we take into account that asymptomatic people who didn't get tested still have some level of immunity (COVID-infection counts only include verified infections).

With that many people having some level of immunity against the virus, Israel is in the midst of THE largest spike of infections since the start of the pandemic last year.

I'm failing to see your logic over how well the vaccine is doing. Sure, the death rates are getting lower, but that could be because the Delta variant is less deadly, or that (as morbid as it sounds) most of the people readily susceptible to death from COVID have already succumbed to the disease. I just don't think that you're giving all of the possibilities their due consideration.

Yes, it appears that vaccinations are helping some with reducing hospitalization (although I have a lot of links that counter that argument, too), but the vaccine is proving less and less of the world-saving mitigating factor for COVID-19 that what it was sold to be at the start.

What I see as good news, though, is that those who are having breakthrough infections will, in my layman's mind, now have some sort of natural immunity in their body, which is showing to be more robust and longer-lasting than the vaccine-induced immunity. So, I guess there's that.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

With that many people having some level of immunity against the virus, Israel is in the midst of THE largest spike of infections since the start of the pandemic last year.

YES! Totally agree

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

What I see as good news, though, is that those who are having breakthrough infections will, in my layman's mind, now have some sort of natural immunity in their body, which is showing to be more robust and longer-lasting than the vaccine-induced immunity. So, I guess there's that.

My expectation for the vaccine was to do not much more than to lower the risk of serious reactions to give people who may end up high risk live. That was about it and to put into practice I saw it as a path for kids to go back to school full time while not putting the people around them in risk by those people getting the vaccine like their grandparents, older teacher with some medical issues etc.

Maybe a side product is reduce infection rate by reducing the number of days a person can spread, seems Delta kind of screwed that up some.

I don't account it all to natural immunity with it like 12 to 15%, so as I said there is something else helping.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

So, just out of curiosity, is stopping the spread no longer a viable goal, so we've moved the goalposts to, "Yeah, but did they die?"

I think the liberals highjacked the original goal, so yes the goal post has been moved all over the place.

Remember "flattening the curve". Which means have people get it, but not at a level to over whelmed the medical system. It seems this evolved to no one can get it period, so lock down forever, to everyone needs the vaccine and not just the old and high risk...

This last year we had 85% of the high risk vaccinated which meant we could have opened the school 100% no masks, let the virus do its thing and we would have 150 million more people today with natural immunity with very low risk. I have said a number of times I do not see the vaccine as a bad guy, just one component to get to a successful end that has many other components too such as natural immunity for the healthy.

People in power today have turned the vaccine into a bad guy in people's eyes, so naturally people are also going to distrust the vaccine too.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I know that we don't need to do this dance again, but how you describe it is not how it was sold to the general public. Yes, there is evidence directly attributed to the vaccine as reducing symptoms and death, but natural immunity does that as well, as do the variants with less-deadly and lower symptoms that are currently driving the latest surge.

I don't attribute it all to natural immunity, either, but since it's proven to be more robust and longer-lasting, it's definitely a factor when the vaccine is showing to be less and less effective at reducing the spread of the virus. And I really do think that the reducing number of those readily susceptible to death from COVID is also a big driving factor in the reducing mortality rate of this current surge.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••

But just for fun and others to read, let's revisit Biden's relatively recent comments and why some people might feel like they were sold a bill of goods (this is from a town hall in Cincinnati less than two months ago):

Yahoo

BIDEN: “If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in the IC unit, and you’re not going to die.”

BIDEN: “You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”

BIDEN, asked about vaccinated people who get infected: “It may be possible, I know of none where they’re hospitalized, in ICU and or have passed away so at a minimum I can say even if they did contract it, which I’m sorry they did, it’s such a tiny percentage and it’s not life threatening.”

That's always worth revisiting when people talk about vaccine expectations, because not everyone has the same expectations as the other.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I agree with everything except your last sentence only partly.

I think that people who are distrusting/skeptical of the vaccine have very logical and scientific reasons to be. Yes, some--maybe many--are acting that way based on the politicization of the whole COVID issue, but there certainly is not a lack of scholarly articles and peer-reviewed white papers that raise legitimate questions about the vaccine. Couple that with how we should be able to choose, across the board, what goes into our bodies, and there are certainly valid concerns with the vaccines and surrounding issues (mandates, lockdowns, demonizing, polarization, discrimination, etc.).

The thing is, I think that you and I tend to agree more on the big things than disagree, that's why I tend to get into the weeds a little more with you. Hopefully you don't mind too much, even if it can get a little testy at times.

#LittleTesty

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

I know that we don't need to do this dance again, but how you describe it is not how it was sold to the general public. Yes, there is evidence directly attributed to the vaccine as reducing symptoms and death, but natural immunity does that as well, as do the variants with less-deadly and lower symptoms that are currently driving the latest surge.

Kind of said that a number of times...hence the distrust in it all

I don't attribute it all to natural immunity, either, but since it's proven to be more robust and longer-lasting, it's definitely a factor when the vaccine is showing to be less and less effective at reducing the spread of the virus. And I really do think that the reducing number of those readily susceptible to death from COVID is also a big driving factor in the reducing mortality rate of this current surge.

You talk a little in absolutes and I think the jury is still out on a lot of what people suggest is 100%. At some point we all will get it, so not an "if", but a "when". The vaccine is giving a better chance for the high risk people to survive, so at some point you need to get it the first time right? That first time is what kills people, and the vaccine helps the body overcome that.

But just for fun and others to read

I really believe people are mixing two separate issues here.

1. Is the vaccine helping...

2. Is our Goverment Fing it up....

a reply to: Xtrozero

I'm talking somewhat in absolutes because almost across the board (from what I've seen, any how), the newest data is aligning with what I'm claiming, and from multiple sources, but it's only happening recently because the question of natural-versus-vaccinated immunity wasn't being properly investigated in the first year or so of the pandemic. Sure, it might all be wrong, but I'm going to run with it as it is for now, and address and changes to the findings if and when they come in.

But I do agree that we will eventually have a very solid understanding, but I don't see that for about the next two years since variants and all of that is changing so fast.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

I think that people who are distrusting/skeptical of the vaccine have very logical and scientific reasons to be. Yes, some--maybe many--are acting that way based on the politicization of the whole COVID issue, but there certainly is not a lack of scholarly articles and peer-reviewed white papers that raise legitimate questions about the vaccine. Couple that with how we should be able to choose, across the board, what goes into our bodies, and there are certainly valid concerns with the vaccines and surrounding issues (mandates, lockdowns, demonizing, polarization, discrimination, etc.)

Here is what I see...

1. If Trump had won then 50% of the people on both side could easily had swapped signs and vax. Remember when a large chunk of the liberal leadership said they would not get the Trump vaccine? And now they are saying everyone needs to get it. We can play that out in the public too, so much of this is still political. People didn't give a crap about vaccines until it became political...remember that.

2. People are very upset with the draconian way that at first how many liberal states performed this last year and then how the fed Goverment has performed in the same way after they took office. I think for most, the reason they do not want to get the jab has a lot more to do with who is telling them to get it then anything to do with the vaccine.

3. People are more or less attacking the vaccine because of all this above as a way to further justify their choice not to get it. Some people seem reasonable with their arguments, like you, but most are just pulling whatever they can to support their confirmation bias, or taking in hyperboles and pulling numbers that they either really do not know what they means or they just don't care and use them because they look good. I do research these numbers too and they are typically not good.

4. Social media is not helping as it is very willing to support any direction anyone wants to go and there are a lot of people making a ton of money by click baiting people. If it bleeds it reads also works in social media, so the worst thing one can make up about the vaccine will sell well and that is what some people do.

This is why it is good to find some people who are reasonable and kind of follow them.

People like Lex Friedman and ZDoggMD are extremely interesting with their guest and are very down to earth in their approaches.

Here is Lex's latest pod cast as example and very fitting for this conversation.

The thing is, I think that you and I tend to agree more on the big things than disagree, that's why I tend to get into the weeds a little more with you. Hopefully you don't mind too much, even if it can get a little testy at times.

I agree and I don't mind in the least...

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

I'm talking somewhat in absolutes because almost across the board (from what I've seen, any how), the newest data is aligning with what I'm claiming, and from multiple sources, but it's only happening recently because the question of natural-versus-vaccinated immunity wasn't being properly investigated in the first year or so of the pandemic. Sure, it might all be wrong, but I'm going to run with it as it is for now, and address and changes to the findings if and when they come in.

But I do agree that we will eventually have a very solid understanding, but I don't see that for about the next two years since variants and all of that is changing so fast.

I just think there hasn't been enough time to suggest one way or the other just yet, BUT even if natural immunity is 100x better I still feel the vaccine was very important for the high risk to get those people over the initial sickness with the virus.

a reply to: HawkEyi

When it comes to Israel at 90%+ vaxxed then it would seem they should be working on their aftercare when one actually is sick from the virus. What are they doing in that regard? Are they giving the sick a hospital room and waiting for them to die? Or are they actively trying the various treatments that are known to affect the virus? Are they trying Ivermectin? Hydroxychloroquine? Vitamin D and vitamin/mineral supplements? The Joe Rogan treatments?

Enquiring minds would like to know what treatments are being tried once you have it. Vaxxed or unvaxxed.

In some cases patients and their carers have had to go to court to get access for Ivermectin.

Link.

You would think at this point it would be automatic to try various alternative treatments once you're sick. No treatments at all should be considered grounds for malpractice or even murder.