undebunkable imo

these two cases down below havent been debunked yet and boy they have tried, both had a lot of military witnesses and one had alot of other evidence but the strangest part of all is they both were supposed to be secret operations never meant to be known by the general public and to this day seems to be ignored by the media, the public, and even by many ufo researchers, how can this be? is there some type of ufo blind spot? is this why ufos can be everywhere and nowhere? and these are just two cases, so here are just some of the interesting info from these cases

rendelsham case

1. larry warren brought this case to the public, i believe 90% of what larry said but i need more witnesses to come forward to back up some of his testimony, and i hope they go on record as theyre aging and might start dieing off without telling their story, larry stated he saw the materialization of a machine in front of up to 70 militarey people in a field on the third night of engagement

2. col halt participated on the third night and documented it with a tape recorder and eventually said he thought what they experienced was either et or id and was controlled by a mothership? if i remember correctly

3. john burroughs and his partner chase a flying pyramid through the forest on the first night and he supposedly had a shadowy creature run down a laser beam on top of him then run back up the beam on the third night, he later stated he believed that he was possibly abducted by whatever this was, he also was given disability benefits by the us govt because he believed his health was adverserly affected by the event and the govt seems to have agreed

4. other evidence included landing gear marks, damaged trees, high radiation levels, etc.

theres more to this case but just wanted to share a few things that stuck out to me, i still dont know why this case is pretty much ignored


varghia brazil

1. this happened in january 1996 and ufo researchers were on the ground within days

2. although there was some testimony of a submarine looking flying craft was fluttering out the backside at low altitudes this case was centered around the creatures that were seen around the town, i think there were at least 3 creatures and possibly more, 4ft tall, brown oily skin, red eyes, two horns on the head, etc.

3. this case hinges on the off the record testimony of many military people and first responders, from people who captured one of the creatures with a net to the handling of one of the creatures from the side of the road, and supposedly one of the best autopsy people in the world autopsied one of the creatures

4. there was some on the record testimony such as a military leader saying what happened was there was a preganant dwarf brought to the hospital thats all it was, boy the people responsible for making cover stories are terrible at it, remember roswell when they said its not a weather balloon its a super secret weather balloon, i guess it was so secret they didnt even know it was missing, i mean it was sitting there on some guys ranch for like 2 weeks

anyway im not saying its aliens but something strange is going on and nobody wants to talk about it, maybe its just to weird or to scary or maybe not many people know about it


question of the day is has anybody done a deep dive on these two cases and believe theres a mundane explanation for them? please explain down below

a reply to: saskwatch

I'm not familiar at all with these cases, but I've been on the alien kick lately. Something about this time of the year for me, and I've been getting into Dr Greer documentaries. I just literally finished the latest one, Cosmic Hoax. It's free on youtube.

In it they say at one point Vallee Jacques claims to have had a document that proved the cia was faking alien abductions, etc.

I always suspected human beings were behind the deception of alien abduction and mutilations- because if aliens are to be blamed, then the human perps walk free of course. They are using aliens as scapegoats. And I 100% believe we have the technology. Idk if that's mundane to you... it's not to me.

Anyway, I'll have to look into these cases, lol. It's the season. Do you have any good links or resources?

Thanks for the OP, it's intriguing.

Shag Harbour does it for me



I rest my case....

a reply to: MetalThunder

That's a good documentary.

Don' Ledger and Chris Styles book Dark Object is worth reading if you haven't already.
Very interesting case.

a reply to: saskwatch

One of my investigators is accompanying a very well respected UFO documentary film maker to Varghia Brazil at the end of the month.
I can’t say who the film maker is, but if your familiar with the scene, then you’ll be pleased to know, the doc is in excellent hands.
My investigator is going down there as a translator. They are originally from down that way.
The doc should be out in a year or so.

And yes, it’s a very interesting case.

the varghina incident is one of my all-time favourite ufo/alien stories - i felt sorry for the creature. i remember reading about the rendlesham incident(s) in the tabloids at the time and the coverage wasn't overly sensationalised or treated with ridicule in the press as i recall. and 41 years later the to-and-fro between people with differing versions of things continues. i hope a definitive true account one day appears.

Nick Redfern apparently has a good deal of information to suggest Rendelsham was a kind of psy-op or technology test on the responding men. I believe one interesting things is that it wasn't the first time it happened. A smaller incident happened a year earlier. Any time you're dealing with the military, it's much easier to assume they're responsible for their own shenanigans rather than conjuring up aliens.

Check out his articles over at Mysterious Universe.

originally posted by: saskwatch
these two cases down below havent been debunked yet and boy they have tried, both had a lot of military witnesses and one had alot of other evidence but the strangest part of all is they both were supposed to be secret operations never meant to be known by the general public

I don't think that "secret" characterization applies to Rendlesham because they called the police. The police came out and said they didn't see any lights but the lighthouse. They were shown a supposed "landing site" which the police (and a forester) thought looked like it was made by animals. So it's a far fetched claim to say it's a secret operation when they called in the police. I'm not as familiar with the varghia brazil case, have you got a source saying it was "supposed to be secret operations never meant to be known by the general public"? By the way making threads with your uninformed opinions and no sources is not very helpful.

rendelsham case

1. larry warren brought this case to the public, i believe 90% of what larry said but i need more witnesses to come forward to back up some of his testimony

Larry Warren's story is not trustworthy, nor is Jim Penniston's story, so you are quite gullible in believing their debunked stories. There were multiple witnesses and most of their stories more or less line up, but not those two. Penniston now tells a story about walking around the craft for 45 minutes examining it. But two other witnesses contradict that, John Burroughs who was with Penniston said that never happened, and their shift commander who was communicating with them over walkie talkies as they were walking toward the lights, Fred Buran. Even Penniston's witness statement made the next day or so after the incident contradicts the story he tells. Fred Buran, John Burroughs and Penniston's own witness statement say he never got close to the source of the lights. Some people say maybe they were forced to make false witness statements, but that argument falls apart here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ask yourself this: If the witness statements were all part of some grand cover-up, why did John make the following statements on the old rendlesham forum?
“Penniston did not have time to do what he said he did unless all of us were in some kind of different dimension. 2 of the 3 felt it was there and gone only Jim said it took 45 min.”
“Yes Jim story has changed and I have been one of the people who keeps hammering that fact. What I have been told is that after hypnosis that is when he changed his story.”
“Cabansag was with us when we first came upon the lights and it only lasted a couple of min not over 45 like Penniston has stated. Jim went under hypnosis and that has changed his story allot.”
“We came upon whatever it was and only were close to it briefly. Jim did say he felt it was some kind of object. His statement also stated how close we got to it. His story has changed and I am not sure why. He has told me since he went under hypnosis his memory of the event has changed. Whatever we came upon departed as we got close to it “

So when you have multiple witnesses and Penniston's story doesn't line up with everyone elses, if you have any sense you would doubt Penniston's story. There's even more reasons to doubt anything Warren said, he's not what you would call an honest or truthful person, based on his history, and his story lines up even less with everyone else than Penniston's story, and Burroughs who definitely was there, says that Warren wasn't there in his comments below. This is a good thread to read if you want to educate yourself instead of posting your misinformed opinion:

Rendlesham Forest…, A Christmas Story from 1980 - Can We ‘Let it Be’?

Burroughs has also had issues with the stories of Larry Warren and Jim Penniston in the past.

Here are some of his comments from this very forum :

John Burroughs: “To all who feels Larry Warren was there please understand he was not. He took Adrian Bustinza's story and ran with it!!!! How do I know this? I was there!!! “

So you're using a witness who Burroughs said wasn't even there as evidence for your "undebunkable case"

Mirageman's first thread was closed at 299 pages and there's a part 2 which is still active, but you should really read the thread before making uninformed posts saying you believe Larry Warren. Here's the link to part 2:

Rendlesham Forest 1980 Pt II - Will There Be An Answer?
Peter Robbins co-authored a book with Larry Warren but eventually he determined that Warren's story doesn't match the facts he was able to determine, so they parted ways and the book was withdrawn from sale:

Robbins, however, decided to part ways after discovering Warren’s military photos and documents (some used in the book as evidence) looked tampered with, that his story doesn’t add up in comparison with other facts and Warren’s penchant for claiming he was friends with such people as Stevie Ray Vaughan, Ringo Starr and John Lennon.

You should read this blog about Larry Warren as support for my statement that he's not honest or trustworthy:

sacha-christie-infomaniachousewife.blogspot.com...

Isaac Koi, a serious UFO researcher, had this to say, and based on my own research, I have found many factual errors but I think he's found even more than I have:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Simply addressing some of the basic factual errors made in relation to Rendlesham in various existing UFO books and on various websites would require posting a few hundred pages of notes. Suffice to say that some of those involved are not interested in letting the public know the truth.

Even John Burroughs, who was there, doesn't seem completely sure what exactly happened, so I can't say exactly what happened either even after reading all the witness statements, but what I can tell you is that Isaac Koi is right that there are numerous contradictions and falsehoods so you can't believe even half of what you read on the case, and your guy Larry Warren is at the absolute bottom of the credibility list of all the witnesses involved.

#1 *Fravor.
#2 Phoenix Lights
#3 *Gimbal
#4 Rendlesham
#4 Stephenville (spll)
#Shag harbor
#5 Dude on the beach in Turkey

*New military stuff..there's going to be lots of this coming out soon (imo)

a reply to: saskwatch

The Rendlesham case isn't ignored at all. I've seen loads of different documentaries about that one and there's been a few books written about it too.

Some people did try to debunk it by saying there was a meteor shower in the area that night! IMO that explanation is almost as bad as J Allen Hynek's famous "it was swamp gas" line he used to dismiss a UFO sighting in Montana in 1966.

Another good case to read up on is another one from 1966, where a UFO flew over a school in Westall, Australia. It landed in a field at the side of school and stayed there hovering for 20 minutes, all of the school kids, teachers etc. were stood around it before it took off again. Then not long after that the military turned up at the school to assure them all they hadn't seen anything.

Did someone debunk Travis Walton and the other 5 crew members' UFO sighting and abduction incident?. If they did I must have missed it.
Number 1 for me.

Rendelsham has grown more arms and legs than your average Gonadian the more Lt Col Charles Halt and Nick Pope waffle on about it.

As for Varghia, Folklore spawned from the misidentification of a few Mangy monkeys and human imagination.

originally posted by: jamespond
Some people did try to debunk it by saying there was a meteor shower in the area that night! IMO that explanation is almost as bad as J Allen Hynek's famous "it was swamp gas" line he used to dismiss a UFO sighting in Montana in 1966

That's a horrible misrepresentation of Ian Ridpath's explanation, which has three major parts and tons of evidence. No doubt much of what Ridpath says is true, but there are still a few things it doesn't explain like Burrough's health issues.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Did someone debunk Travis Walton and the other 5 crew members' UFO sighting and abduction incident?. If they did I must have missed it.
Number 1 for me.

You didn't hear the alleged audio of the crew boss who drove the truck saying it was hoaxed? After the audio was made public, he first claimed it was fake, then he withdrew that claim.

Travis Walton Crew Boss Confesses! Mike Heston Rogers says it was all a HOAX!


That was posted on the ATS thread Travis Walton story falls apart
So was this link, which claims the UFO was a fire tower. It's not proven but it's an interesting hypothesis and the audio of Mike Rogers sounds real. He doesn't know the details of how Walton hoaxed the UFO though, he just knew he had to drive the truck away. He's apparently spilling the beans now because Walton never paid him what he promised to pay him and was trying to cut him out of another movie deal or something...so I guess that's why the thread is titled "story falls apart" instead of "debunked", because of the infighting of those involved.

threedollarkit.weebly.com...

Rendelsham has grown more arms and legs than your average Gonadian the more Lt Col Charles Halt and Nick Pope waffle on about it.

There are so many lies told and factual errors, it's hard to figure out the truth. Starting with, Halt's famous memo doesn't even have the right date(s) on it!

As for Varghia, Folklore spawned from the misidentification of a few Mangy monkeys and human imagination.

It's been a while since I looked into it, but I remember coming to the human imagination conclusion as most likely, thinking there is no way somebody would not have photographs if those stories were true, but I could never find any photographs.

a reply to: canucks555

#1 *Fravor (US drone)
#2 Phoenix Lights (US PSV "Presence", test flight PSV-25S over the transect Nevada-Arizona,)
#3 *Gimbal (US drone)
#4 Rendlesham (US drone)
#4 Stephenville (US PSV "Presence")
#Shag harbor (North American X-15 going through a catastrophic engine failure; two flights on October, 4th, 1967, only the successful one was recognized)

You've ranked both Rendlesham and Stephenville as 4).

a reply to: Soloprotocol


This is the more recent Travis Walton podcast.


www.youtube.com...

Charlie Wiser on Twitter about it all.

twitter.com...

Mike Rogers today with an email .

web.facebook.com...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

The least said about a bitter/jealous old man with a grievance over money the better.

Imho, instead of the varginha case i strongly recommend the Colares incident encased in the brazilian "Operación Prato" (Brazil 1977). Mass attacks, deaths and abductions to the local population in the night by strange lights and the brazilian army was moved to investigate and defend the people. The chief commander Uyrange Hollanda Lima was sceptic at first but later he changed his mind after a closer encounter in the third kind. Later, when he was retired, he had and interview with Ademar Gevaerd, a brazilan ufo investigator, they talked about what really happened to him, later he supposedly commited suicide.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: Arbitrageur

The least said about a bitter/jealous old man with a grievance over money the better.

So would you rather discuss Jack McCarthy, who never had any grievance with Travis over money? He said Travis "is lying and did not take any UFO trip."

Seems to be pretty much the same message that Travis perpetrated a hoax, whether a grievance about money is involved or not.

originally posted by: tekkaman
Imho, instead of the varginha case i strongly recommend the Colares incident encased in the brazilian "Operación Prato" (Brazil 1977).

I would agree with that. One of my concerns about the varginha incident was that I could never find any photos. There are numerous photos in the Operation Prato documents, though they are all more or less fuzzy blobs or nocturnal lights where you can't really tell what they are, but I suppose that's what the "U" in UFO means: "Unidentified".

The Black Vault has a nice pdf for Operation Prato.

a reply to: tekkaman

I agree, the Varginha case is much more interesting, and it wasn't "debunked" either.

But, having said that, the fact is that any case with little or no physical evidence is always hard to prove either real or false, so it's no surprise there are so many "undebunked" cases.

PS: congratulations on using the right name, "Varginha", it looks like most people aren't capable of getting it right.