How Do You Act Against Dishonesty?

All, I am curious for this post because as we all have experienced, those of us who have peeked our head out into the real world, that there are those who believe to lie in a compulsive type of way. These are not people who do it to get out of trouble or to escape from being embarrassed, but they will tell even small lies that don't seem to have a purpose for them making that decision to be dishonest.

You may have learned like I have, that there is no way to argue with them. They construct arguments so that they will not reveal their dishonesty so they may even speak hypocrisy, and if that is pointed out, it will be flat out denied. This might upset the other person, I have learned to not lead to this point by suggesting that it is not worth arguing and thus forfeiting the argument. That does not mean that I will personally still feel happy when I walk away.

Should we lie to the person who is lying to us?

One thought is that if you can prove through another witness that a person is lying, you can act like you believe their lie - but add on to their lie with truths that you have. This would confuse the dishonest person. But if lying is a sin, I am sure if would not be condoned to sin just because somebody sins against you.

Should we avoid the person who is lying to us?

This may be wise because we can forget about their actions towards us, although I have problems dwelling on issues when I perceive that another is being unkind to me. This will also cause the dishonest person to become upset because they do not have you around to control you anymore, that is not good because their unkind actions will be more large when you encounter them.

Is there any way to win when a person in your life is dishonest?

a reply to: MatterIsLight

i think it depends vastly on the circumstances but i tend to confront lies head on.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

“Should we avoid the person who is lying to us”

Yes and yes.

There is no reasoning / winning with these people. One lie evolves into infinite. My ex wife won an award for being one of the worlds biggest liars.

Save yourself the grief - excommunicate the bastard.

originally posted by: djz3ro
a reply to: MatterIsLight

i think it depends vastly on the circumstances but i tend to confront lies head on.

You’ve obviously never dealt with a pathological liar then. Calling them out on their lies only infuriates them more and produces more lies.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

Should we lie to the person who is lying to us?

No.

Should we avoid the person who is lying to us?

Listen to your instinct.

Is there any way to win when a person in your life is dishonest?

What does winning mean? Outsmarting? Some people do it just for the thrill of getting one over you. Avoiding them as much as the situation allows it, is the only solution because you will be stuck in a reactionary position.

originally posted by: KKLOCO

originally posted by: djz3ro
a reply to: MatterIsLight

i think it depends vastly on the circumstances but i tend to confront lies head on.

You’ve obviously never dealt with a pathological liar then. Calling them out on their lies only infuriates them more and produces more lies.

Unfortunately i have and you're not wrong, but as an ex-Bouncer with 18 years experience i'm very good at conflict managment and i was known for my ability to talk almost anyone down.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

you could always be like mudbone and tootlum.

tootlum would tell him a lie and then mudbone would tell him a lie, then they'd compliment each other lies.
at least until mudbone took him to ms rudolphs house and he swallowed that monkeys foot that hung around her neck.

don't believe me, you can see him down at the zoo. he's the polar bear with little tiny feet.

here's the story, warning it's got some foul and offensive language in it. so just the link.

Mudbone

Sounds to me like you are realizing narcissistic abuse going on.

Unfortunately if this is the case, your options are very limited.

The most effective one being getting out of their crazy town and staying out.
That is, cut off all contact with the liar and their enablers.

Anything else will just be giving them more narcissistic supply.
Also see terms like "ghosting", "gaslighting" and "narcissistic abuse" on YouTube.
There will be loads more explanations of what is going on and advice.
Best wishes.

Just one clip, but yeah they will drive you crazy if you try to oppose them in argumentative terms.
You're not dealing with logic here.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

You must have met my ex-wife.

Her rabbit hole of lies ended up a full blown labyrinth.

Some people are just spineless, i think they actually believe some of their own BS.

It always boils down to a fear of the truth, the concept of introspection is completely unknown to them.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

That depends on the relationship and the circumstance.


If it has anything to do with someone your dating... Eject!

a reply to: MatterIsLight

Honesty always wins so be honest.

And don't argue, confront and converse, but do not argue, it's pointless and solves nothing.

Agree to disagree and move on.

a reply to: infolurker

I found this quite interesting from a Christian perspective.
The types of narcissistic spirits or demons.



However, these can not simply be exorcised or wished away very easily.
Nevertheless if you check "narcissism/borderline" and "possession", even not many psychologists will deny there is a spiritual component to it.

Now more from the perspective of the victim, in Hinduism we may ask when is the karma of the narcissist coming?
You know, we want to see it Lord Krishna, but they seem to be thriving.
But it's the Kali-Yuga, these things will spread.
But the karma is already there, because they are miserable people really.
And they do not advance or learn from mistakes in this lifetime.
Cycles of relationships they repeat over and over.
This lifetime was a waste for them.
They must do it over and over until they finally learn.

So the best thing to do is ignore them completely and focus on your own spiritual and physical health and happiness, which is within you, and love for the divine.

I am forced to tell little white lies to my family all the time. What can you do about it. I do not reinforce people's delusions if they are critical or cause people problems though, and I get in enough trouble doing that necessary truth. The problem with telling your adult kids and grandkids that something is a good deal even when they don't need it or telling them they look good when they are sick and look like crap is that they come back at you with a bitch to make it look like you caused their problem by saying a little white lie to make them feel better.

There is no winning in the society we have created, if you are not sociable and tell little harmless lies people think you are a crabby old man or woman, totally disconnected from reality. Then later they say You let them go astray and you should have told them to beware.

I also have to tell the wife little white lies, if I didn't, I would have been divorced thirty five years ago.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

Pee in their water reservoir, plant a scorpion in their house.

-True story-

But normally i just stay away from liars and nasty people.

OK, the white lie - I'd say you cannot write convincing autobiography or "self-narrative" without a little "spruce".
Although, thinking now, where have I ever done it?
Flip, I'm really so honest.
OK, I lied about something that happened back before 1994 in the army.
I stole another man's narrative.
So what, that's way beyond affecting anybody now.

But now "malignant lying" is something else.

Imagine sitting at a barbecue, and this woman suddenly says, "But Halfoldman has called me a bitch many times".
My blood runs cold.
All eyes are on me.
My night has just turned into a nightmare.
I know I'm innocent, but I apologize anyway.
I know I won't be invited again now, because her accusation sticks.

When people move away to dish-up, I ask her why she is doing this?
And all I get is this smile that seems to come from a demonic kindergarten.
Those are not the eyes of the bubbly, level-headed mask I just saw.
Oh entertainment for them, they are bored very easily.
Our happiness is their hell, so by their nature, they must turn it around.



To them lying is like an anesthetic, or soothing agent.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

Don't be compromised to use their methods.

If you have good reason to doubt what someone says, you can tell them, but sometimes people have a cognitive bias and totally believe what they say. Even we can do the same thing unwittingly, and so we need to give a little latitude and not be too judgmental.

In an argument or debate, rather than accusing someone of outright lying, you could simply state that you are unconvinced. They cannot argue that and have to take your doubt at face value. This means they have to search for a better explanation of their reasoning. If they are lying, their stories, from a different viewpoint, will soon contain contradictions which may well be enough to push past their cognitive bias.

Unfortunately, for most, the response is to defend themselves and they respond with an unrelated ad-hominem attack.

At this point, you have won the debate/argument, and so may cease from pursuing your point.

a reply to: MatterIsLight

If is is a significant other walk away now you are better off for it.

If it is a friend they aren't a friend walk away you are better off for it.

If it is a family member not much you can do but call out their bullcrap.

You can also call out the bull from the other groups I mentioned but it only leads to arguements cut ties walk away.

If it's a coworker you always call them out especially in front of others so that others know they are liars.

It really is that easy

a reply to: MatterIsLight check your inbox. Sent you a message.

a reply to: MatterIsLight
I got the feeling you were addressing relationship issues with the many liars elected into public office, and would rather just kick their teeth down their throats that might give em incentive to practice being honest for a change or resign...

Yup, they'd rather opt we kick their teeth down their throats than resign.

"Sometimes ya just gotta say wtf"




eta

I think somewhere in there I may have twisted your intent and tried to meld it with mine.
Even if hypothetical in nature.

a reply to: MatterIsLight
Honesty. Honestly