SHTF Communications - Frequencies

a reply to: Trueman

True, but it all doesn't end at the exact same time. Many elements will fold long before some others. National Defense, Air Traffic Control and Public Safety will be some of the last to fold. Because once you lose these things you truly have descended into anarchy, with little hope of return. The timeframe between the first and the last could be months or even years. In the meantime, the very last thing survivors would want to do is draw attention to themselves unnecessarily.

Besides, VHF based systems are not a good choice because they are essentially LOS systems with limited range. This is actually by design as it naturally reduces interference from nearby regions, simply because signals can't propagate that far. The distance to the horizon is roughly 3 miles, and when you add in the height of a person on the other end, the distance increases to about 6 miles. (yes, by elevating one or both ends the range increases, but this might not be a practical possibility for mass communications). Six miles isn't very far at all when you think about a mass disaster type situation.

Truly long-range RF type signals are in the HF band and below.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: JBurns

My pleasure. I'm not joking when I say the following...

That wouldn't just be a simple "error"...an error like that could easily put a fellow in Guantanamo Bay for an extended Cuban vacation (no trial, nothing)...and I am NOT kidding either!! THAT's how serious of an error it would be! I also wasn't joking about fighter jets responding to your location within minutes!! 121.5 is absolutely NOT a frequency to mess around with! The people who monitor that frequency have less than zero sense of humor.

I know it's reckless, but the 14 year old boy inside me really wants to test that just to see what happens

originally posted by: MerkabaTribeEntity

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: JBurns

My pleasure. I'm not joking when I say the following...

That wouldn't just be a simple "error"...an error like that could easily put a fellow in Guantanamo Bay for an extended Cuban vacation (no trial, nothing)...and I am NOT kidding either!! THAT's how serious of an error it would be! I also wasn't joking about fighter jets responding to your location within minutes!! 121.5 is absolutely NOT a frequency to mess around with! The people who monitor that frequency have less than zero sense of humor.

I know it's reckless, but the 14 year old boy inside me really wants to test that just to see what happens

Maybe key it up and start making fart noises into the mic?

Get a license. They are not that hard. It will make all your questions. easy.

The license gives you the ability to use the bands and learn. Us old folks will help you.

Go off license, we will find you in a few seconds. Really. We will. Then report you. We are very polite, and the last bastion of a certain breed. We are hams.

a reply to: JBurns

just throwing this out there...

If you wanted to make a landline more NIMS like take a look at this pdf.

Handbook of Intercom Systems Engineering
products.rtsintercoms.com...

It shows lots of examples using an intercom system.

Page 52 talks about extending an intercom range.

If a station is locally powered, operational range can be extended up to five miles, using two transformers to step up the line impedance to 800 ohms (for lower Moses). When the users cation has the four wire / 800 ohm option installed. operation is possible up to 20 miles along Telco dry pairs. Operation over longer distances (3000 miles) is possible using dial up or minimum M. dry lines and Me TW series of interfaces.



It's not as complicated as it looks, one could go cheap with a simple system using military field-phones or go all out using a closed in PBX "Private Branch eXchange" network with voice mail to email, call waiting, texting, fax, caller ID, radios and more.

Find an old PBX Norstar phone system etc. splice into an unused utility grid... unlimited possibilities.

It would be pretty secure, like looking for a needle in a haystack.

a reply to: JBurns

Remember, we are talking SHTF/WROL here. Licenses and authorization are out the window. 430MHZ? 155MHZ? 50MHZ?

You are talking about SHTF/WROL. WROL stands for Without Rule of Law, therefore why worrying about licenses and authorizations? On the other hand, what makes you think it is a good idea to communicate your position to unknown people under a SHTF scenario? I mean, I'm sure there would be SHTF situations in which radio silence is the best strategy...

a reply to: Havamal

Look, when the SHTF, like the OP is asking, you're going to have a lot bigger things to worry about than going and finding some unlicensed operator!! Plus, there's no one left to even enforce it, so what are you going to do?? ...go to his house and stick your tongue out at him???

Oh, and spare me the old party line about HAM's being the Public Safety saviors of the universe. Ninety percent of HAM's anymore are just a bunch of crusty 75 year old dudes yammering on about their gear, the good ol' days when everyone had to know CW to get licensed, and what malady they last went to see their doctor for. (you know it's true too) Those old geezers aren't going to be "tracking" anyone down! They're just happy to be able to make it from their recliner to their "shack" without falling and breaking a hip.

And no, getting a Techician ticket does NOT allow you to use (all) the bands, just a very few (above 30MHz), and you know it! A General ticket gets you a little further. It's not until you get to the Amateur Extra ticket that you can really do anything long distance, and that's not a particularly "easy" license to get. The reasons HAM's push the license thing so hard is because they know if someone gets their first license they are less likely to go rogue without a license for any band. That's all there is to it.

You guys had a really big chance to make the Amateur radio hobby (and it is a "hobby") fun and inclusive back in the 80's (before the Interwebz), but you failed. You kept it a very closed, elitist and snobbish hobby club which very few were welcomed to join. And even then you weren't really welcome until you'd "paid your dues", just like the "Elmers" did before them. (Hence all the CW BS). That whole CW phase was designed to keep people OUT, and you, the ARRL and the FCC had ample chance to change all that long, long, ago, but you didn't. Instead many HAM's appointed themselves as self-appointed Deputies of the airwaves and saviors of the world, cuz they really were all that important don'tcha know. Now HAM is dead because of it. Except for the last few old geezers pointing their trembling crooked fingers at people and saying...."You b-b-better get your l-l-license, sonny boy, or else we'll t-t-track you d-down and find you...and REPORT you!!!"

You'd probably never guess it, but I am actually a huge fan of amateur and shortwave radio, and it's sad to see what has happened. It's a shame really; it had so much potential, but huge segments of the hobby just couldn't get over themselves, so other mediums took it's place. Now, no amount of pleading by the ARRL or anyone else is going to get all those bright eyed kids back. Heck, even some of the older (middle aged) guys are turning to IRLP and Echolink (which in my humble opinion defeats the whole purpose).

If anything, the amateur radio community might think about actually welcoming unlicensed users! At least they're users! Maybe over time they can be brought into the fold. Until then, it's just dead-air. The bottom line is; better get a whole lot of new users, and quick, else it won't be long before that whole area of the spectrum is taken away, sold off by the FCC and relicensed for commercial use.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Sorry you got so mad at my comments. Maybe I did not express myself well. If you could pass the test for tech or general we could help you learn about radio. If not, well, we never hear from you.

You seem to think the SHTF stuff is coming. When? At what point do we stop obeying the laws of our country? When do we quite renewing drivers licensees When do we quite paying our income tax? When do we stop behaving like law abiding citizens? When is it ok to break all the laws of our country?

You argument seems to be that because you can't pass a test on amateur radio that you can break the laws of our country. OK than. I told you what would happen. My HF rig puts out 500 watts and can reach the entire globe. Been doing it for about 40 years. We do provide a service in times of emergency. When was the last time you had an emergency crew camping in your backyard to provide service to your local community?

OK. What I thought.

a reply to: Havamal

LOL! I'm not mad, my friend! Not at all.

I'm an electrical engineer in aviation electronic systems. One of my specializations is RF. I'm pretty sure I could pass the tests. LOL! I've taken all the practice tests (just for fun), and aside from some of the regulatory stuff on the Amateur Extra exam specific to Amateur radio they were actually pretty easy.

I was actually contemplating getting into amateur radio once, but I'm much more interested in the technical RF electronics side, not so much the broadcasting side (I worked in commercial radio after HS).

I have no interest in breaking any laws, all I'm saying is; your point was silly...and for a variety of reasons.

First, you and your 'posse' might track someone down if they're broadcasting for an hour straight on 30MHz or higher VHF, but you know as well as I do that you're going to have a much more difficult time doing that at 90m-120m or even down in the 40m bands, for short durations and from multiple locations. That "track you down stuff' is just bravado and scare tactics, and you know it! Those "Fox hunts" are just for kids. Just look at how long it took to triangulate some of the infamous numbers stations around the globe! Some they never even found to this day...but you and your posse will find them in minutes, right??? LOL!!

Secondly, if you actually READ the OP you will see the question he asked is very specific to SHTF scenarios. My answer was in response to the OP. He wasn't asking about what area of the spectrum to go have some fun, his question was specific. Your answer, on the other hand, was not. So, in a true SHTF scenario, just exactly WHO are you going to report all these unlicensed users to?? Do you honestly think the FCC is going to give a flying foo-fah about some illegal broadcaster in central Iowa???? LOL! C'mon! You take yourself way too seriously!

Lastly, your "service" value to the community is WAY overstated today in modern times. Maybe 40 years ago it had some residual value, but today not so much. I know, I work with Public Safety officials every day! In fact, just recently some HAM was trying to make an argument to put an Amateur transceiver into one of our communications centers. He was unanimously voted down! His argument was it would be an invaluable tool (when in reality it would have just been a toy for him to play with), but the consensus of Police, Fire, EMS, and the FAA was it was just "noise" they didn't need and didn't bring any value to the table. Period. Not my call, I'm just telling you what happened. So, before you go start pounding your chest, you might read those words again. This is exactly what I was talking about with this self-appointed super-hero image some of you guys have.

Oh, and let's talk about Hurricane Katrina for a moment. I've heard some HAM's say that only HAM's could communicate in and out. Invaluable, right? Well, then I'm sure that's why the US military started jamming some of the amateur bands around NOLA shortly after Katrina, right? LOL! They were complicating things more than helping, because too many were all just trying to get in on the action so they could say how invaluable they were!

I think if some of you guys backed off the self-importance and bravado gig about 5 light years, you might attract a lot more new members which you so desperately need.

ETA - Probably the very last thing I'm going to be worried about during the chaos of anarchy is whether my drivers license is up to date! Or, if I've paid my taxes! I'm going to be a lot more worried about all the goblins and crazies running around in the streets shooting, looting and killing! Wouldn't YOU?? Or are you going to be dillegently sitting behind your 'rig' calling..."CQ CQ CQDX...this is 1KXLAX, Lawrence Kansas, calling...is there anybody out there???"...until the end?

a reply to: Havamal

BTW...I actually know dozens of amateur radio guys who are absolutely great guys. Good friends.

I also know a few who are absolute butt-heads for many of the same reasons I state above.

I have no axe to grind with the amateur radio community, I actually wish them well in the future. I honestly do. I do however see some room for improvement, and one of these areas is the attitude from some of the old guys. Times are a changin' and many are refusing to change with them. In fact, they're openly resisting these changes! Just look at the tidal wave of grumbling from the amateur radio community when the CW requirement was dropped! That's a perfect example.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

OK...what I thought!

Sound familiar????

Be careful who you wish to cross swords with here on ATS...some may be smarter than you think!!

I too, have learned my lessons the hard way!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I really don't know how to reply to this much anger at a hobby.

I was a signal officer in the Army. Before that I got my first Ham license at 14, using CW. Learned CW from a record. Old school. I built my first CW transmitter in the 1970's. Yes, there is a bit of elitism in ham radio. Just like there are elites in Army Airborne Rangers (of which I am also a proud member).

You seem like you want to join a club, that it looks like you could join, but for whatever reason don't want to be a member of.

Hams are folks who like radio. That is it. They do spend a lot of time talking about signals, and range, and maybe their health issues (with old friends), but that is because they are always trying new things to get signal out. I just put up an 80 meter dipole full wave on my property. I can pull in stuff like never before. TX is pretty much still the same. What does this tell me? I have to think about it for a while. But most hams are doing science, and are always sharing their results.

To run my 80 meter I had to learn about drones to run my antenna. Now I have a new hobby. Are you going to disparage me for learning about drones?

You seem very angry. I tell my wife: Relax your forehead, relax your jaw, relax your shoulders. Take a big breath and hold it, then let it out slowly. It might work for you.

Looking forward to hearing you on the air someday.

Well, as I noted previously; I am not angry in the least. I'm really not!

BTW...congrats on being a Ranger! That's quite an accomplishment. I'd be proud of that too. I used to work with a guy who went through Ranger school in his 40's. Said it damn near killed him, and he was a tough SOB too. Told me some stories about some SEAL's who went through at the same time he did on some inter-service cross training arrangement (I'm sure there's a name for it, but I don't know what it is). Real jaw-droppers! Anyway, congrats for that.

I think you might misunderstand where I'm coming from here. I might actually surprise you. I say "you" in some of my responses, but I don't mean you personally, but rather in a general sense. What you likely perceive as my 'anger' really isn't anger at all, more so frustration than anything else. Amateur radio could be so much more. Truth be known, when I was considering getting into the hobby not so long ago, I was an avid SWL'er. Even kept log books for distant DX's. Was a huge fan of DXpeditions to remote locations. Have an ICOM R75 sitting in the closet collecting dust now, and no less than five other radios. Why? Because there's nothing out there to listen to anymore.

One of my particular interests was antenna design. I've long said RF is as much art as science, and this theme bears itself out well when it comes to antennas. The devil is in the tiniest of details, not so much the bigger picture design. Anyone can throw a loop of wire out there and make a crude antenna, but it takes a special finesse to make that same loop of wire quiet and efficient. But I digress.

In my heart of hearts, I would love nothing more than for the amateur radio community to rise back to the level of importance used to be, that many brag they are now (when in fact they are not). Earlier, I told you a story about one of our communications centers. What I didn't say was, how disappointed I was at the outcome. And I was. It made me sad to see the amateur radio community get dismissed out of hand like that, as just a bunch of "noise". Unfortunately though, this is what amateur radio has devolved into. And, much of this is driven by archaic attitudes more than any other single thing. Again, amateur radio could be so much more.

In my career I’ve worked, traveled and lived all over the globe. I’ve seen more instances than I could ever hope to count where amateur radio would have saved the day, only to flip on the SW radio and hear two old windbags, on crystal clear comms from 7,000 miles away...talking about their diabetes! That, and dead-air. It makes me want to scream!

Again, what you perceive as my anger is really more frustration. Where the rub comes in is when people start regurgitating the same old party mantras of amateur radio. It’s tired, and it’s stale. Regarding clubs and my desire to join the community; I’ve searched around in my state (Colorado) for clubs. There are a few, and I’ve attended some club meetings as a guest just to check things out. What I’ve found is they seem to fall into two groups (possibly three):

1. DXpedition clubs – (very interesting to me) These guys are a group who are generally independently wealthy, can leisure travel 100% of the time and have very little interest in any other elements of amateur radio beyond planning, funding and executing their next DXpedition. Unfortunately, I don't have these luxuries. Not to mention the fact my wife would probably shoot me if I told her I was taking off for 4 months to go to Kerguelen Island in the Southern Ocean!
2. Traditional clubs – These folks are very formal, conducting meetings with perfect parliamentary meeting procedures (motions, records and votes on the most inane things). And it seems the only open discussion usually revolves around lamenting the days of old, rules, and all the grievances they have with the modern amateur radio world. Frankly, it’s depressing and boring.
3. More progressive clubs – who seem to only be interested in internet relay and repeater communications. I really have no interest in this because I can go on the intewebz without a radio, so I fail to see the point.

Maybe in some other state it’s different, but that’s all I’ve found here, and believe me I’ve looked. So, from my perspective, this is what amateur radio is today. And, the REALLY sad part is, I run a cattle ranch (my 2nd job) where I have hundreds of acres to do things like erect towers without restrictions and build remote buildings, etc.

So now you know a little more about why I say some of the things I do in response to posts like yours. Again, I’m really not mad, just frustrated. Previously I stated I work with Public Safety and regulatory agencies every day, and I do. The part which probably frustrates me about amateur radio the most is, I know for a FACT that regulatory entities such as the FCC (among others) are just drooling over the notion of snatching the amateur radio spectrum back from HAM’s owing to lack of use and participation. When that happens, the final chapter of amateur radio will have played out, and it will be gone forever.

Do you see where I am coming from now???

To you I may seem like one of amateur radio's biggest enemies, when in fact I am really one of its biggest advocates!