Michael Schiavo - Sworn Affidavit by RN Ciyer

Originally posted by marg6043
Well I still trust our judicial system ...

Hi Marg. I think I have lost faith in our judicial system.
OJ got off ... innocent people on death row... guilty
people off on technicalities ... innocent people harrassed ...

It seems that the only thing 'they' have gotten right lately is Scott
Peterson's case. Perhaps I'm just too jaded ....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

(yes, I am definately a Michael basher ... can't stand the $^#%$)

In this lays the problem. You are unable to give a fair judgement because you cant stand him.

The following is an excerpt from an interview with a neurologist who examined Terri:

So, what is Terri Schiavo‘s true medical condition?  Here to help us sort it out is Dr. William Hammesfahr.  He‘s a neurologist who was nominated for a Nobel Prize for his work in medicine.  And he‘s one of the doctors who has treated Terri Schiavo. 

Now, Doctor, if you can, clarify for us her situation.  Obviously, you investigated that situation.  Her husband says that she‘s in a permanent vegetative state.  You don‘t believe that, do you? 

DR. WILLIAM HAMMESFAHR, NEUROLOGIST:  No, she‘s not in a permanent vegetative state at all.

SCARBOROUGH:  Is he lying about that? 

HAMMESFAHR:  He‘s absolutely misrepresenting what‘s happening. 

There‘s a hoax been perpetrated on the American public and on the media for the last five years about this case.  She is—if you go to the mall and you see those children who have got cerebral palsy or brain injury who are in wheelchairs, they‘re going around—more severe cases might have some kind of electronic straw to puff on to move around.  She‘s not as bad as those kids. 

Less severe cases, you know, stand up or sit up and can sort of moan and make sounds that get their wishes known, you know, what they want to eat.  And she‘s like that right now. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  But we have heard, Doctor, she‘s in a permanent vegetative state from this husband who says that she should die. 

HAMMESFAHR:  OK.  Let‘s clear up what a permanent vegetative state is a little bit and then you can have your viewers make their own decision, because, obviously, the House and the U.S. Senate have introduced and passed bills brought on by physicians who have made their own decision after looking at the evidence. 

The evidence is at the TerrisFight.org Web site, where there‘s videos of her, especially the videos with Dr. Cranford, a neurologist, who asks her to do different things.  And she does it.  She follows commands.  And no coma patient and no PVS patient follows commands. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What kind of commands does she follow? 

HAMMESFAHR:  Well, she follows a lot of different commands.

But let me explain a little bit first about what coma is, because she‘s a type of—they say that she‘s a type of coma.  What a coma is, is a person who has no ability to respond to the world around them.  There‘s no ability at all of any sort.  They don‘t make sounds appropriately.  They don‘t make sounds people.  And they obviously can‘t understand English in order to do something. 

Now, a persistent vegetative state is kind of a subset of coma.  In a persistent vegetative state, a person looks like they‘re awake, but, again, is completely unaware of their surroundings.  So, you could have a brass band walk through the room and they wouldn‘t have any awareness that that‘s going on.  They just continue doing exactly what they were doing before.  And, again, they obviously can‘t understand language.

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s not the case with her, right? 

HAMMESFAHR:  No, not at all. 

It‘s interesting.  She actually responds to people in different ways.  When I went in initially, she acknowledged my presence and then ignored me, as she ignored her husband and she also ignored the videographer. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, that‘s what my children do all the time.  They ignore me.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Doctor, tell me this.  Has she gotten better or worse under her husband‘s care? 

HAMMESFAHR:  Much worse. 

SCARBOROUGH:  How‘s that? 

HAMMESFAHR:  Well, first of all, she didn‘t have a heart attack.  The first story that gets circulated is that she had a heart attack due to an eating disorder or an electrolyte imbalance. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s not true? 

HAMMESFAHR:  No, not true. 

She didn‘t have a heart attack.  And when you have a heart attack, your body releases chemicals called enzymes from the heart muscle in the bloodstream.  And those enzymes were never present.  She didn‘t have—she did have an electrolyte imbalance, but not severe enough to cause problems.  It was probably brought on by the ambulance service giving her a little bit too much fluid. 

We know that electrolyte imbalances that they talk about cause heart attacks as a means of causing death.  And we know she didn‘t have a heart attack.  So, she didn‘t have an electrolyte imbalance.  There‘s no evidence of any sort that she had an eating disorder leading up to her collapse.  She didn‘t have a heart attack.  So, what did happen?  Well, she didn‘t have anything wrong with her, as far as we can tell.  Her lungs were good.  She had no signs of infections.  So, there was never an explanation for why this happened to her. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, how did she get in this bad of a situation if she didn‘t have a heart attack? 

HAMMESFAHR:  Well, we don‘t really know.  What we do know is that she was—she apparently told her family she was going to leave Michael.  And they asked that she not return to him that night.  And the next morning, she is found face down on the floor unresponsive.  The ambulance...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  I have got to stop you there.  Who told you that? 

HAMMESFAHR:  That‘s in the record, the medical and legal record.  So, we know that for a fact.  And then she was taken into...

SCARBOROUGH:  Are you suggesting foul play here? 

HAMMESFAHR:  I‘m suggesting that an investigation needs to be done of this case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Doctor, thanks for being with us.  Explosive allegations. 


Source: MSNBC Scarborough Country 3/21

Originally posted by Gazrok
She didn't even have a bedsore for godsakes,

No. That's good. But why did her mollars turn black and
fall down the back of her throat?

the spouse can act on one's behalf and communicate
their wishes in this. So since he speaks for her, it's really a
moot point.

This is where I see smoke. He claims to be speaking for her.
The courts recognize this as a fact. BUT ... many others say
that she said just the opposite, such as what I posted Terri
saying about Karen Ann Quinlan AND the fact that she was
a practicing Catholic and the Catholic faith is strictly against
death by starvation (no problem with taking someone off
life support, but a feeding tube isn't considered 'life support')
The courts either missed this or don't care and find it easier
to stick to 'the husband speaks for her' even when other things
in her life say the exact opposite.

persisting in a vegetative state with your cerebral cortex
gone.... Would YOU wish such an existence?

Nope. I wouldn't. But I wouldn't want to be starved to death
either. And this isn't the issue. Michael Schiavo is the issue.
Did he put her there to begin with? Did he neglect her care
once she was in the hospic (which by law she shouldn't have
been in).

In regards to her having low potassium or was in poor health
to begin with ... I understand that supposedly an investigation
was done. Anyone see information on this alleged investigation?
Anyone have any links? Any names of documents that can be
looked up? Any doctors names? Anything? Terri was in her mid
twenties when this happened. Have you seen pictures of her?
Rosey cheeks.. smiling face ... I know there are hidden conditions
but honestly, the only 'reason' that I have seen given was by the
highly suspect Michael Schiavo claiming she was on a diet and that
threw off her body chemestry ...

Originally posted by SpittinCobra

Originally posted by FlyersFan
(yes, I am definately a Michael basher ... can't stand the $^#%$)

You are unable to give a fair judgement because you cant stand him.

I can't stand him BECAUSE of what I have read about him.
First came the facts, then came my stand on him.
Prove me wrong and make me a Michael supporter.
Please.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
BTW - I think it's

that YOU are quoting a BUSH and believing him!

Never thought I'd see the day!

The only thing in your points I really want to address that isn't personal speculation or an otherwise "inquiring minds want to know" seems to be the black, rotten teeth thing that keeps coming up. As I have some insight there.

Having known adults that suffered from bulemia in youth or for any extended amount of time, the disease has a persistent and long lasting impact on the teeth. It's like a former meth addict trying to save their smile. And I imagine no third party does as good a job on your teeth than yourself, but once you've done that damage to your mouth's natural bacterial defense, your teeth's protective enamel and then go a decade with no food, salivation, swallowing or other natural process of keeping one's mouth healthy minute to minute (no matter how well and frequently your teeth are brushed) it's a near futile effort. I imagine her teeth couldn't be saved by a 24/7 pit crew. So I'm not suprised at all if they've rotted. It happens to bulemics (even former) not in a persistant vegetative state too.

And let's get something straight. This was not your average fair weather bulemic. She put herself in this state from the extremes of her disease. Her teeth were probably well on their way to rotten.

Also: I think the definition of "hell" for a bulemic is being force fed by Republicans against your will for 15 years.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by RANT]

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Facts mean nothing anymore. The 'agenda" of the insane liberal left is to murder the innocent and the weak among us as they have since Roe v Wade in 1973. They have become the "nazi's" they accuse Bush of being.

This is premeditated "murder" by the black ropes and "hubby dearest".

Get the point, are political parties are simply putting forth a rat race into tyranny by different means?

Hey rat poison is 99 per cent good food, and so too with politics, great rhetoric but what are the results, a country belly up with regulations from the left and penalties from the right. Face it the question is "freedom verses tyranny," and look at what they do not simply at what they say.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by SpittinCobra

Originally posted by FlyersFan
(yes, I am definately a Michael basher ... can't stand the $^#%$)

You are unable to give a fair judgement because you cant stand him.

I can't stand him BECAUSE of what I have read about him.
First came the facts, then came my stand on him.
Prove me wrong and make me a Michael supporter.
Please.

I dont care what you believe or who you support. You read blogs of people that think the same way you do, of course it is going to say what you want it to. Try reading something that you dont agree with. And instead of fighting it because its not your ways, read it and understand it then make opioion.

You can find just as many people who support him, as that dont.

Nope. I wouldn't. But I wouldn't want to be starved to death
either. And this isn't the issue.

Agreed, but euthanasia is currently illegal...no other choice really.

Actually, it IS the issue. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Michael abused the living daylights out of her. Let's say he has this elaborate plan of killing her and destroying the evidence. Let's furthermore say he makes Scott Peterson look like the Pope in comparison. Let's say that he's creepier than Michael Jackson...

The issue is STILL whether or not Terri's suffering should be ended....

Call for a frickin' inquisition of Michael if you want, but in the meantime, let Terri have some peace....just my humble opinion....

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The following is an excerpt from an interview with a neurologist who examined Terri:

She didn‘t have a heart attack.  And when you have a heart attack,
your body releases chemicals called enzymes from the heart muscle
in the bloodstream.  And those enzymes were never present.  She
didn‘t have—she did have an electrolyte imbalance, but not severe
enough to cause problems.  It was probably brought on by the
ambulance service giving her a little bit too much fluid. 

... What we do know is that she was—she apparently told her
family she was going to leave Michael.  And they asked that she
not return to him that night.  And the next morning, she is found
face down on the floor unresponsive.  The ambulance...

So much for an investigation into how she got into this state. Lots
of 'probably' and '_________ (insert body part) worked fine' ...
no answers. See?? More smoke. Lots of smoke. Better check
for the fire. Interesting find djohnsto77. This doctor's statements
are in direct opposition to the statements of the Hemlock Society
Right-to-die neurologist that Michael Schiavo hired.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
Try reading something that you dont agree with.

That's why I'm here. Prove this wrong. Clear the smoke.
Make me a Michael supporter instead of a Michael hater ...
RANT is coming up with some interesting reading. It hasn't
cleared the smoke, but it is food for thought.

(If I wanted to hear one sided chatter all the time I'd be at
DemocraticUnderground or RightNationUS all day.)

Originally posted by Gazrok
Call for a frickin' inquisition of Michael if you want, but in the meantime,
let Terri have some peace....just my humble opinion....

Terri is going to die. Whether or not she wants to, she is going to die.
I am resigned to that. However ... I definately DO want Michael
investigated. If he is a killer, he shouldn't get away with it. If he
put her in this state, he shouldn't get away with it. If he didn't put
her in this state ... some hard evidence is going to have to be put
forth because even though America says 'innocent until proven
guilty' ... this guy is very much guilty in the eyes of at least half this
country. (I don't think this falls down through party lines either. I
have read disgust at Michael coming from Dems and Reps both).

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I thought I'd kick off the Michael Schiavo discussion with a sworn
affidavit from the RN who took care of Terri. In this she talks about
the menacing body language Michael Schiavo used, and her
assertions that he tried to kill Terri with insulin overdoses, etc. etc.

They had this so called Nurse on live last night and frankly she did not seem
creditable to me at all.

In addition I do not think she has both oars in the water, since she appeared live w/o a lawyer present.

Some of her statements were boarderline slanderous if not actually outright slander. She obviously is mad because she got fired, nothing more. If she had a leg to stand on she would have gotten her job back which is not case, giving more reason to doubt what she said.

Keep in mind she was not the only nurse who attended to Terri, there had to be others, yet none of them have come forward have they? Why is that?

She made allegations that the husband had destroyed medical charts and instructions, yet no doctors have confirmed this. Why is that?

It appeared to me that she is just another pro-lifer wanting her two minutes of fame.

It would not surprise me at all if she gets sued by the husband once this is over.


I am not a lawyer but what she stated live as I said seemed slanderous but that can only be determined in a court of law.

You can believe her if you want, but I think she is nothing more then a kook!!!!!

Originally posted by FlyersFan
That's why I'm here. Prove this wrong. Clear the smoke.
Make me a Michael supporter instead of a Michael hater ...
RANT is coming up with some interesting reading. It hasn't
cleared the smoke, but it is food for thought.

I have no idea where this goes (just passed to me) but it's a Florida attorney that claims to be "documenting" the case blow by blow from a no BS neutral perspective: abstractappeal.com...

I'm just reading it now too.

But really I think Jeb's investigation was the definitive summary. And even as a theoretically "pro Schindler bias" (coming from Jeb's side), it still had Michael passing muster.

Originally posted by RANT
Having known adults that suffered from bulemia in youth or for any extended amount of time, the disease has a persistent and long lasting impact on the teeth.

Yep. I knew that. However, it's good that you brought it up
because some folks may not know that bulemia ruins teeth.

This was not your average fair weather bulemic. She put
herself in this state from the extremes of her disease.

Michael claims that she was bulemic but there has been nothing
to support that claim. Do you have any medical info to support
that? Any links with info on her blood work? The info provided
so far on this thread shows that her blood work was fine except
for the overage of fluids put into her by the ambulance people.

I think the definition of "hell" for a bulemic is being force fed
by Republicans against your will for 15 years.

HA! You think republicans put her feeding tube in? Michael put it in.
She could swallow jello and liquids but he still insisted on putting it in.
And then after she became dependent upon it, he insisted on taking it out.
Oh .. and don't forget ... Terri is CATHOLIC. She went to Catholic
school and she was a practicing Catholic. Her religion is very specific
about feeding tubes. The Catholic church says that you don't have to
put people on life support (lung/heart machines) ... but to with hold
food and hydration is definately against her religion. So it wasn't
a 'republican thing', it's a faith thing. So you can't bash the republicans
on this ... you'll have to bash the Catholic faith. Sorry RANT, I know
how you would have just looooooooooooved to make this a
Republican thing.

FlyersFan,

Well one of the reasons I am siding with the law is, because I have been closed to two cases in my life time, one was a neighbor, and the other one and uncle that was shoot in the head, he survived but lost of blood cause brain damage.

Both cases family took the decisions and that was it, the way it should be.

In American people make decisions of life or death all the time, more that many may think.

Families in the privacy of their homes decided if their loves ones should be allowed to rest in peace.

You don't see their families in the media and their unique cases for everybody to comment on.

But the Terri case has become very important for some, and the reasons as why are to political to let go.

That is my problem, all the facts points to the fact that she will never recuperate from her trauma.

Miracles don't wait 15 years to happen.

I still think the law and the state should do what is right, they have the facts the reports and everything they need to make decisions.




[edit on 23-3-2005 by marg6043]

Sorry RANT, I know
how you would have just looooooooooooved to make this a
Republican thing.

Do not blame Rant for that the Republicans did that all on there own in cased you have missed all the news reports.

Originally posted by RANT
abstractappeal.com...

That's a lot of info. Okay. I'll go read that (as well
as take my daughter to art class). I'll be back later
with my thoughts on this. In the mean time ... keep
the info coming. I want to know if this guy is an
attempted murderer, guilty of criminal neglect, or
if he is being branded a demon unfairly.

(He'll be a tough product to sell ... )

I'll go read ... be back later ...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I think the definition of "hell" for a bulemic is being force fed
by Republicans against your will for 15 years.

So you can't bash the republicans
on this ... you'll have to bash the Catholic faith. Sorry RANT, I know
how you would have just looooooooooooved to make this a
Republican thing.

You left off my . Just a joke. Hell for a bulemic would be anyone force feeding you, so you're right there.

But I can't believe you're now doubting she was even bulemic. I've never heard that doubted before in any of the offical findings. That's speculating pretty far back outside anything an outsider could hope to know.

We might as well argue if the tomb was empty or over what the big bang sounded like. In other words, you're stretching. Going way outside any reasonably framed debate just to speculate conspiracy and motive of crime with no evidence of a crime.

Shall I? What if the Schindler's did "this" to her? What if you did? What if Priests for Life did? Who has the most to gain? Tom DeLay or Micheal Schiavo? Of course, any such speculation is absurd.

Originally posted by marg6043
Families in the privacy of their homes decided if their
loves ones should be allowed to rest in peace.

Marg. I agree with you it's just that MANY people
think the husband is the one who put her in this
condition to begin with. If that is true, then he
certainly can't be trusted with her welfare. He
needs to be investigated.